eh, yer momma's so fat...


when she was laying on the beach, greenpeace gathered to help push her back out to sea.

quis est haec simia?

I would comment, but I'd think you'll be embarrassed enough next time you look at your own post.

I love my country enough so that I get outraged when it engages in counter-productive acts overseas, and I get embarrassed for my fellow countrymen when they start acting like the streotypical "ugly Americans." If I didn't give a damn, none of it would matter to me.

Oh well, sic transit gloria mundi .

mari - it would take a hell of a lot to embarrass me, but so you know - my last few posts were just a joke. jag is aware of that.

they were supposed to be stereotypical american responses... guess they worked - but i wasn't really insulting jag's mother.

Largely seperate issues. A lot of people of people have been pissed about that for a long time (the opposition leader, Mark Latham got a lot of kudos for standing up and calling howard an 'arse licker', an act that alone made him one of my favorite pollies) but the more recent issues is the trade agreement and the comments of the deputy of state who was over to the media about Labor's stance on keeping troops in Iraq should they win the election.

Jag, you deal daily with institutions, corporations and government entities from the USA, that the average person here has no idea who they are or what they do, if they’ve heard of them at all. We know the people we meet, their actions and feelings and the general mood and feel. We get from the media what’s happening on a nationwide or worldwide basis but our personal knowledge is limited to our daily lives. When we hear someone attacking (verbally) Americans, we say “Hey that includes me, what the hell did I do?”
I think your perspective is formed by the people you deal with and they’re not representative of me or my attitudes. I also think that’s why you keep coming back to the Cellar, because you find the attitudes and comments you find here contradict more than reinforce what you see in your work.
Personally I’m interested in your take on things as a point of view from European dealing with American business and government entities. I wonder how much of your perspective is shared by Europeans that don’t have those dealings. You know, the average Joe, that only gets information from the media, like I do.
:beer:

Well you're right and to be honest, I wouldn't have a clue. There are lots of communities that are annoyed about different things. Most australian creative types are mad as hell about the new trade agreement for example but in the broader populace it's more complicated.

In Australia a mixture of resentment and a sense of resignation about America but direct impingement does raise ire, the article I pointed to you above is a common example and Labour is doing well off the back of a fair wave of anti-american feeling.

Europe is harder, there is a lot of feeling in Britain and I think Blair has felt it. I've seen a lot of people here (Switzerland) give the finger to the TV when bush comes on . Hating bush is very trendy to say the least. Even in very professional environments I've heard people make some not very polite comments. Bush personally is very, very toxic and certainly appears to embody what it is people dislike.

Most of the stuff that really irks me is not stuff that most people would be aware of in the slightest but there is a lot of feeling about other issues that are more about our place the in the world. Ask most people about why they are anti-war (and the vast majority are) and the answer will probably be something like "it was just for the oil", deep down it seems to me it's more a sense of indignation 'how dare they do that'.

I would have to second Jag when it comes to the responses of my own family in Switzerland. They are all very intelligent, mostly highly educated people, and they despise Bush. My Aunt Elsa whom I am most in contact with, often expresses polite bewilderment about American foreign policy and just American customs in general. I've had I don't know how many conversations with her which began with her shaking her head and asking, "Why do you Americans...?"

What? Why do we what? What do all us Americans exclusively do that has your freaking aunt Elsa so perplexed? I'm dying to know. Seriously.

So hating Bush is "trendy" in Europe? I'm not even going to try to defend that despicable dunderhead, but when did Europeans ever like American presidents? I was stationed at Upper Heyford RAFB in the 80's, and traveled/worked all over Europe. Reagan, again, no defense here, was HATED everywhere, and being in the military working mostly with local civilians, I was constantly berated for his policies. I've also visited several times as a child, and also in the last few years. It's always the same for me, "Oh, I don't like Americans, but you are O.K." like I'm getting priviledged gossip. I've only been able to come to two conclusions on this, either we're just a HUGE stupid target, or that they truly resent our waste of potential. One thing I do know, is that they all really do love cowboy movies, especially in Germany.

Europe is far further to the left, your left wing is right of our right wing most of the time, tends to be why we particularly dislike your right wing leaders. Clinton is pretty popular over here. Jinx, travelled much?

Nope, not at all jag. Your point?

Just how aware you are/aren't about the opinion of americans outside america.
Every major nationality has different connotations in most people's head. Since I've got enough passports to play cards with I'm particularly aware of this. I call Australian I get the 'g'day mate' and shrimp on the barbie stuff, Swiss gets me fairly close to a blank slate, maybe something about banks or cookoo clocks, British means people avoid giving you an opportunity to show off your teeth. America mostly gets loud, obnoxious, arrogant, jingoistic and insensitive. It's not entirely fair but it's a fact.

Jinx, you sound a bit defensive. First of all, let me assure you that my aunt is not some knee jerk American basher. She graduated from a Swiss University and spent most of her career working with children, teaching kindergarteners. And, yes, in Switzerland, even a Kindergarten teacher has to have a university degree and it's a specialized training. So Aunt Elsa will ask me things like "why do you Americans have such a high infant mortality rate?" The US has one of the highest death rates of infants in the Western world - truely deplorable in comparison with other First World countries. Or she will ask, "Why do you Americans seem to have so little regard for education?" when speaking of American high school drop-out rates as compared to Switzerland where literally no one drops out of school. Stuff like that.

Jag, I'm sorry, but so what? I realize people all over the globe like to generalize and stereotype, from nationalities to race and gender, that's certainly no secret only you and Marco Polo are privy to. Do you know Mari's aunt Elsa (or her travel history)? Because I was specifcally asking about her.

I'm not defensive, it's nothing new to see someone try to pass off ignorant generalizations as "very intelligent, highly educated" ponderings. So, she would express bewilderment at American customs like high infant mortality and dropping out of school? I see.

My Aunt Elsa has traveled extensively in Great Britain, France, Italy, Greece, Turkey, and the USSR to name a few. She has avoided coming to the US because she fears its reputation for violence. She is now in her 60's and is less adventuresome than she used to be. As to her questions regarding American customs, she wonders why Americans overseas seem to be so loud and disrespectful (this asked when a group of obnoxious American tourists chattered thru a service that we were attending in one of Luzern's ancient cathedrals. :eyebrow:

Oh yeah, I would hardly call it an ignorant generalization to look at our high infant mortality rates and high school drop out rates and wonder why. Those things are fact. And regarding the noisy tourists in the Cathedral, my Aunt said, "Well, they are young. Perhaps that is the reason." I don't know why you would view her honest puzzlement and her desire to understand as negatives. What? Do you have something to hide about our country that I don't?

So Elsa has traveled extensively in countries where it's 'trendy' to be anti-american, never actually visited america, and is basing her judgments of americans on tourists? Give me a break, everyone hates tourists. They invade the cool place you live, make it all crowded and somehow cheapen it with their presence. I grew up in a resort town - we hated all tourists, but the Canadians were the worst. Looking back, I have no idea why, but that's what everyone always said. Damn Canadians.

Any US OB will tell you the high rate of infant mortality is the result of better prenatal care nurturing higher risk pregnancies, as well as increased number of multiples due to fertility treatments. Any US midwife will tell you that's bullshit. A better question I would think would be; why are black babies in the US 2.5 times more likely to die in their first year than white babies? But anyway, I guess you and I have different ideas about what a “custom” is. That's what initially intrigued me - I just wanted you to finish your sentence.

It's trendy to be anti-american pretty much everywhere but america. That's the point.

Er, just where IS Elsa supposed to travel where Americans are welcomed with open arms? If you are saying that Great Britain, Italy and the rest of our allies overseas hate us, that's a pretty broad indictment in itself. As far as the USSR, Elsa went there out of curiosity. She and the rest of my family and everyone else I ever encountered in Switzerland had nothing but contempt for the Soviet Union under communism.

Elsa and I have also talked about race relations in the States. Its one more thing that perplexes the Europeans about our country, and given modern European history, something they are very sensitive to.

You are really jumping to conclusions when you assume Elsa has some unreasoning dislike for the US. She asked questions because she was curious and you can hardly expect a Swiss to have the same understanding of what's behind various statistics about the US as you and I do. That's why she asks. And as I noted in my example of the noisey tourists above - Elsa cut them more slack than I would have myself - ultimately blaming their behavior on their youth rather then their nationality.

I might give you your same advice as you give my Aunt: Travel in Europe yourself before you jump to conclusions about why the Europeans may feel about us as they do. We are so arrogant here in the States. There are NO homeless people on the streets of Switzerland. People do not lack for medical care or go bankrupt trying to obtain it. In the US 13.6% of our population gets by with $11.00 or less per day in real purchasing power (UN statistic). In comparison, prosperous Switzerland does not even fit anywhere on the same UN chart. The statistic simply does not apply to the Swiss population. I can walk the streets of Switzerland's capitol city of Zurich alone at 2:00am without fear. I am wary of doing the same thing in D.C. at 2:00 pm, forget 2:00 am.

So many people seem to imply or even state outright that if one points out the things wrong with the US then one is somehow unpatriotic or anti-American. I do not understand this. If I admit to some personal failing, does this mean I am against myself? I think it takes courage to admit to one's flaws, whether this is done by an individual or a country. As difficult as it may be, honest self scrutiny is vital. Without it we can never correct our own mistakes. Only a small man never admits to his errors. Greatness is in saying, "Here I was mistaken, and these are the steps I will take to ensure that I don't do this again." Then following the words with the action. If we Americans remain willfully blind to our country's failings out of some misplaced sensed of patriotism or for any other reason, we can only go downhill both as a country and as a people.

Well said

Where are they? :confused:

At home! ;)

You are completely off base here. I asked you to finish your sentence. I wanted to hear about these wacky American customs that make her shake her head. How that turned into a need for me to run off to Europe has me a bit confused...

So there are no working poor, drug addicts or crazy people? Yeah sure, home is a home with locks on the outside of the door. :p

Believe it or not, Bruce, very few. Switzerland is not some utopia, but the problems Swiss society faces really do not include homelessness to any great extent. The Swiss, like the Americans, are a hard working industrious people. They also enjoy the advantage of having an unemployment rate that hovers around a mere two or 3 percent. Add to that the strong social safety nets that Switzerland (along with the rest of Europe) has in place, and it becomes highly unusual for any Swiss to find themselves homeless. When I last visited there some years back, Zurich did have a sort of equivalent to Amsterdamn's "needle park." The Swiss at that point had few laws regarding illegal drugs, so a small "scene" of sorts had developed near Zurich's downtown. My older Swiss aunt who is quite conservative was rather outraged about the whole thing and claimed that the majority of the denizens of "needle park" were not Swiss, but foreigners attracted by the easy availability of their favorate poisons. The whole thing was such an oddity that my then husband and I went down to the area to see it, and I was so impressed to see someone actually sleeping on a park bench in Switzerland that I took his picture. This was in the middle of the day, however. I never saw anyone sleeping on park benches or huddled in doorways at night. I have heard that since my last visit the Swiss have cracked down somewhat, and "needle park" no longer exists. Jag tells me that Switzerland is changing, but I'd be really surprised to encounter homeless people on the streets there, still. I'm sure Jag will correct me if things have changed so much in only a few years.

when was Live AID? whenever. that summer, my dad took me, my brother and my sister with him on a long business trip to SanFran. One evening, in China town, as we dined......in an authentic Chinese restaurant that specialized in Cantonese Cuisine......for some reason I remember my dad checking menus in the windows to see which way the restaurant leaned....4 men sat down at the adjacent table. Two of them were Texas Cowboys. String ties and all. They were probably in their thirties, and you could feel the excitement pouring off of them. The other two were very well dressed Frenchmen. They did not oozez excitement. They oozed horrified, embarrassed, disgusted, appalled, and superior. I remember being conscious of the fact that Americans are disliked by the French. I remember thinking of the irony of this situatuion. SOmehow, these very different men found themselves dining together in a quiet Chinese restaurant in China Town, and these two guffawing, big belt buckle wearing, buffoons were our country's representatives. If i had a picture of myself rolling my eyes, I would post it. the smilie would not do it justice.

Safety nets? As in institutions? places to put them so they aren't homeless? :confused:

Are you asking about people like schizophrenics, Bruce? If so, I really do not know what Swiss societal and governmental policy is in their regard. Perhaps, Jag could enlighten us. I stand by my statement, however, that I can honestly say I saw no one who appeared to be homeless in my various visits to Switzerland up to about 1999.

I can't speak for Zurich, I have little business in the German half but certainly in Lusanne it's pretty much unheard of. Incoming migrant populations, particularly from Africa and Eastern Europe have generated some problems in recent years, particularly drug related but compared to most places, it's virtually invisible. There is a very strong social net here, it's slightly different to much of Europe in that instead of a government controlled health network you instead have a legal obligation to have private health insurance which in general works very well. Switzerland has a stupidly high ratio of hospitals to population and a very high quality of medical care.

The drug issue is delt with with a carrot-stick system, prison sentances for posession are short and large comprehensive rehab programs exist, the combinations is effective as any I've seen. Compared to most places the police have a high visibility with regular foot patrols 24/7, there is nowhere here I would feel unsafe.

( PSSST! I don't think they're going to believe us, Jag. Americans think everyone must have a homeless population since the US does. I give up.)

OK, so there is nobody living on the streets because they put them somewhere via their “safety nets”.
We used to do that here but the courts ruled that is not legal. You can’t institutionalize someone against their will, unless they are a danger to someone, because that’s a violation of their constitutional rights. It really doesn’t matter what kind of care you offer most of these people because they won’t take it, of their own free will. Drugs(alcoholism) and mental illness are prevalent and rationality rare.
I suspect that Swiss families can force a family member off the streets, if necessary, whereas here, they can’t. Such is the nature of a system that stresses individual freedom. :)

No you're jumping to conclusions. Very few people choose to live on the street and what varios safety nets do is avoid that happening and give people help getting their lives back on track, I fair to see how you inferred that implied forceable institutionalization.

Switzerland has very well enforced civil rights, we have far greater control over our government than pretty much any other major democratic state. To pass a major bill it must go to referendum, we don't simply elect someone, watch what they do and pass judgement, we have to approve every major bill from spending changes to taxation to criminal law, all must pass referendum. Thus here, unlike the US, it is close to impossible to ram though unpopular legislation and hope the electorate forgets in time for the next election.

I second Jag's description of the Swiss democratic process. Switzerland truely is a government of the people. Also just because a person is a schizo who won't take his meds does not mean he has to be on the street. I know a person like that who has never been homeless - just bounces between a group home and the state hospital. He also has a family that tries their best for him, and they don't order him bundled off somewhere for life. There really is not all that much drug and alcohol treatment available here for the low income/homeless. The Salvation Army is it, and they're only around in larger towns.

Alcoholics/addicts don't want to be where they can't do it and any of the mentally ill that are paranoid don't want to be even in overnight shelters, here. This may be because of the quality of the shelters, I don't know.
So somehow the Swiss are convincing these same people to come in to their facilities, without forcing them. I wonder if it's the difference in the facilities, or the social background they come from? I also wonder how immigrants would react to the Swiss system, not having been brought up in Swiss culture? :confused:

Well I know the biggest problem with the drug trade here is african migrants, they simply have no fear of the prison system, compared to where they come from it's a vacation. There is vague stirrings of a deportation system but whether it'll see the light of day is another matter.

I never had any trouble in Switzerland, France, Austria, or Germany. Nor Australia or New Zealand, though that was rather longer ago.

She's traveled to Greece, Turkey, and the USSR and she hasn't traveled to the US because of the US's reputation for violence? That strongly suggests either she has an unreasoning dislike for the US... or has been associating too much with those who do.

Jag, your opinion of americans is based on no direct contact with us in our natural habitat.

We're quite different when we're not behaving as tourists.

Getcher ass over here, boy, and see the US firsthand.

I have always been told (i.e., even before this administration) that all Europeans hate Americans--except Texans. Supposedly they all love Texans. I guess perhaps that's no longer true since it's widely known that Bush is Texan?

To pick up Wolf's and Clod's point, Jag has never been to the South, either. They'd warm that cold, European heart of his with some down home hospitality, boiled peanuts and ice-cold beer, a good college football tailgate party, a low-country boil, some good bar-B-que, a shot or two of Jack Daniels and last but far from least, a bevy of the South's finest belles. :)

Jag has no idea how cool Americans can be.

Look, Guys, you can't have it both ways. I was asking Jinx where in her opinion the poor woman should go since Jinx wrote off the better part of Europe along with our allies Turkey and Greece as being places where American bashing went on. Elsa DOES not hate Americans, O.K.? At the time she went to slightly more off the beaten path places like Turkey and the USSR, she traveled with her S.O. who now, sadly, has passed on. She's in her late 60's and felt rather hesitant about coming to the US alone, and at the time we had the discussion, I was still working and wouldn't really have had the time to show her around. (Actually, I guess she must be 70 or more now, since she was maybe 65 or so when we talked about it).

Little things like Columbine, Ted Bundy, etc, etc, etc kind of made her a bit apprehensive. They just don't have crime like that in Switzerland. The woman is starting to get up in years and she's lost her best companion. You sure are a mean spirited bunch. It's as if your 65 or 70 year old Grandmother felt a bit apprehensive about traveling to Mexico City alone right after your grandfather had passed on. Would you call her a Mexican hater? Jeez, give me a break! :eyebrow:

Clobfobble, the texans are for the amusment factor, like clowns.
Beestie I'm a diehard city slicker with a perchant for mojitos, I wear frigging birkenstocks for crying out loud, if you see me in the south I'll be arriving by flying pig.
Yet I love traipsing around 3rd world jungles, go figure.
I would like to visit the US but it's not an option until they stop treating visitors from friendly countries like convicted criminals. I probably already have some sort of file somewhere, if they want to add verified photo ID and fingerprints there's going to have to be a damn good reason.

Well, Jag, you could probably get away with the Birkenstocks in the South. Its the fashion police in Aspen who would be your real worry. ;)

sure is smug in this thread

I've just re-read the whole thing and it's a riot! From the original thread-jacking, here are the Top Ten Stupidest Things Said in this Thread. Paraphrased and summarized for your convenience.

10. Catwoman: Americans are hatred/violence/retribution-oriented because they want to torture child molesters.
No, Americans want to torture child molesters because A) they molest children, and B) their own legal system will NOT torture them.

9. Jaguar: Other countries don't prevent immigrants from being successful because they don't pass laws that prevent it.

8. Cyber Wolf: American criminals are tortured by the difficult legal system.

7. Wolf: I own, like, enjoy, carry firearms but I'm not trigger-happy.
I know what you meant and yes it's still funny.

6. Jaguar: I won't visit the US because it treats visitors like criminals by taking a fingerprint.
I prefer the Swiss system, which waits for them to cause trouble and then deports them.

5. Marichiko: We Americans are soooo ignorant of other countries! I take wisdom from my Swiss Aunt... who won't visit the US because it's violent like Columbine.

4. Cyber Wolf: Americans want to torture child molesters, and the media suppresses it.

3. Jaguar: Europeans hate US foreign policy because it's overreaching. Also, there are people in Normandy who would die for the US.
I do hope this one isn't too subtle.

2: Jaguar: Friday: Ah this is pointless. My views will change when the situation changes which it no doubt will in the coming decades, until then there really is little to discuss here. Monday: I'll give you more ground than you think, I'm not against changing positions if you have evidence to back up your arguments.

1. Undertoad: My point is I love you man.
True, but probably an evasion

? Live Aid Lumberjim, was Saturday July 13th 1985. It was my birthday, and I went with a bunch of English and American friends to the London Wembley end of it on a wonderfully hot day of almost twenty years ago and I find that almost unbelievable. Nineteen years ago tomorrow. When I was nineteen (way back in the late sixties) I had won a travel bursary and went to America. Nobody I knew had ever been to the US and in those days it was a very major event. I worked my way around large parts of the country, making friends who are friends to this day and thrilling with the excitement and sense of disbelief at everything I saw. I was overwhelmed at least once a day! A bit like your Texans in SA, I was something of an innocent abroad LJ. It was the most thrilling time of my life. I adored the US and its people. I remember the warmth and hospitality I found everywhere, people who were total strangers opened their homes to me and showed me around their towns. I recall the enormous pride they had in their nation and how thrilled they were to help me enjoy it as well. I worked in California, Oregon, New york, and travelled through or stayed in at least a dozen other parts of the country. It was the first of several trips to the US and had a profound effect on me.
I later lived my working life in London and so many times I cannot recall, found myself returning the favour to visitors from the US who wanted to see London from the perspective of a very proud native. You would be amazed at the sheer numbers of people who came back, as our guests, and we would go walking together through the french countryside or the scottish highlands. The last big bash was with two families of New York mates and my gang in a huge Greek villa for a month. We rocked believe me!!

Forgive the nostalgic ramblings please, this is what often happens to me around birthdays, but I just wanted selfishly to insert an island of profoundly happy memory in here alongside my thanks for the memories.

THANK YOU CZ!

an actual opinion of americans based on real life personal experience. and happy birthday. give your self a big bear hug from me.

And that is why you should never use Cliff's Notes!
Ah well, I can only control so much how I come across, especially in a text forum. Cheers, UT! :beer:

UT, sorry, I missed the bit where the US never deports people and there is no system in Switzerland to do so. Who's the idiot? I fail to see how the two points in 3 are mutually exclusive.

If I warp your quotes and take them out of context I'm sure they'd sound amusing too.

The trouble with America.

She is truly beautiful. She boasts some of the most outstanding areas of natural beauty in the world. She has produced some of the most intelligent, prosperous and significant people in history.

But this grandiose image is tarnished with a history of corruption, pollution and death. Indeed, industrial America's very foundation is war; a nasty, brutal civil war that killed far too many. Like all wars.

The European perception of America could accurately be described as hostile; at best ambivalent. I would like to explain why I think this opinion exists.

Most* people's perception of America is founded on a) media reportage; b) international events and c) Americans they have come into contact with (most likely as tourists). I am sure you will agree this is how most* Americans assimilate an opinion about Britain or any other country.

* I exclude those who have travelled extensively to the country in question.

Media 'reportage', from Fox to Friends to Films, is often self-appreciative, righteous, moralistic and - for want of a better word - intolerably slick. It leaves that lasting, bitter taste of style over substance, something that we self-deprecating Brits find hard to digest. Of course, we are influenced by our own media and its portrayal of America. I have to say it is often unashamedly biased, with subversive presenters often using the American stereotype to parody key American figures. You might consider this unfair, but these stereotypes truly are made to fit. Or made to measure, as you might say.

International events speak for themselves. Countless invasions, occupations, wars. Economically, America is the 'big bully' of the international community. 'Price wars' is an American concept. It has paved the way for Third World Debt, Free Trade Zones, and unqualified poverty. I needn't mention the points of conflict surrounding the recent war.

American tourists are idiotic, presumptious, arrogant and largely unwilling to involve themselves in local culture. They see England as 'cute' and 'quaint' and are fascinated by a history they have never known for themselves. If only they could package it up in a cute little box and take it away with them.

Of course, it would be completely unfair to judge a country by merit of its tourists. If Britain were judged on its tourists, international perception would probably include the words 'ignorant', 'indecent', 'rowdy' and 'uncultured'.

And they would be quite right. In general, the Great British populace are an ignorant bunch, leading soundbite lives based on instant gratification with their indiscriminate consumption of food, 'culture' and politics. Is it fair to say this is representative of how this country is run and permit others to make judgements based on our behaviour? Of course it is! Human beings have a choice. Their behaviour abroad is no less indicative of their mindset as their actions at home.

I apologise for the lack of euphemism but American foreign policy is trigger-happy, always has been. And I do think this is reflected in the gun laws (or lack thereof). The thing is, America is incredibly insecure. By nature of it being the biggest power in our modern world, it is constantly faced with the threat of a fall. And it's a long way from the top, as any befallen athlete, actor or CEO will tell you. There will always be another country threatening a bigger gun, more WMD's, more troops, more... whatever. It is America's duty to stay on top of this and ensure that no one else rivals their pole position. America is the best country in the world, and don't you forget it.

In my assessment of America I do not implicitly condone, flatter or otherwise 'big up' my own country or any other. This is not an argument of moral, financial or political superiority. It would be nice to be able to express a critique of a person, institution or country without fear of an emotional reaction, and a lot of this debate has been reaction, not response.

It is also worth mentioning that mine, jag's, or anyone else's opinion about the States is not a detraction from people's individual or personal 'goodness'. There are many lovely people in America as there are in this country, or anywhere else. We are merely reviewing the overriding sentiment. Unfortunately, as someone mentioned earlier, it is often very difficult to usurp some kind of honest self-reflection in most American people, and I include a couple of my American friends in this assessment. One girl I have known for two years still gets very protective of her country, and will not listen to balanced criticism, even when I know she agrees. It is as if there is a guilt associated with self-deprecation - like it demonstrates betrayal or weakness - when in fact it belies strength.

The fact is, America is at once the strongest and most vulnerable country in the world. By this merit, it is no surprise its inhabitants are perpetually fearful - scared that their strength may one day be taken away from them, and then all they'll have left is the fear. It's when this fear translates into bloodshed and brutality that a negative perception of America is understandably cultivated.

And for any of you tempted to respond to this with some ill thought-out, personally insulting or otherwise retaliatory one-liner, I'll leave you with the best quote I've seen in the Cellar for ages:

Go munch on some freedom fries you self defeating halfwit. © Jaguar

yeah. nice teeth, limey ;)

All's fair on posts and boards. :beer:

And we really don't have crime like this in America either, as you well know. Events like these are the tails of the bell curve.

Cat, this section bapped the lightbulb in my head on, and especially those words. It's a lovely insight, well said.

There is a deep cultural problem here, but the thing is, it's not really American so much as it is industrial/globalization related.

A hundred and fifty years ago, you bought a pen. It was a fountain pen, and it was individually crafted from its component parts by another human being, probably working alone. It cost 100 hours of your salary to buy this pen, but the pen was a beautiful thing.

Yesterday, you bought a pen. It cost you 5 minutes of your salary to buy this pen. It is much better and longer lasting than the pen of 150 years ago. The ink doesn't need to be bought separately. The ink writes on ten times as many surfaces as the pen of 150 years ago. It will last you for a year, after which you'll use another 5 minutes of salary to buy one exactly like it.

And that's the problem: it'll be exactly like it. It's still a pen, better in almost every single way... except one: mass-created by machine, not carefully created by an artisan, this pen has no soul. It's an empty shell of a pen, and now the meaning of what a pen really is, changes in ways we might not like.

Today's pen, better in every way... except that it has no soul. It is intolerably slick. And when we use it, we lose a little soul ourselves. But the fact that it's better in every other way means that its acceptance, its purchase, its use is inevitably going to take over.

And as a side effect, the working classes will have pens of their own.


I've heard Winston Churchhill was happy in a way to see the Japanese bomb Pearl Harbor. It's said that he believed that was the point at which the US would really get serious about Germany. Until then the US had stayed out of it. Not really our battle.

I was kinda waiting for the point where the Switzerland fans would come up against any other Europeans in the house.

For your marvelous insights, here is the only place I see you slip. Americans are not insecure whatsoever. We are absolutely convinced that we are the biggest, baddest motherfuckers on the planet. The thing that pisses us off the most is that you forget it. If you knock down our tallest fucking tower, the only thing you'll find ten years later is that we've built a bigger, badder fucking tower to replace it, and we don't really care if you think we're whipping out our big dicks or flipping you the bird.

From outside our culture I'm sure much of that is appalling. From inside it, I know I am often appalled. But it does not come from insecurity.

It's the strongest, therefore it has further to fall. But it's really only vulnerable to fear. Take 9/11 as an example. What happens if you obliterate ten blocks of infrastructure in the financial district of the most important city in the country? Well the financial folks have always planned for massive failure, and many of the worst-hit were up and running the next day with backup networks in other parts of the country. But the financial effect of people not traveling, not hiring, not buying, etc. because of fear was pretty bad.

The truth is, the world has much more to fear from the fall of America than from its continued strength. For example, the US is responsible for the security of most of the world's major sealanes where oil is shipped. The entire world benefits. That's military overstretch.

The other truth is, as the strongest, we automatically become the target. We automatically become the scapegoat. I for one hate the notion of the US being the world's police force. But we have a very different responsibility if we are targets and/or scapegoats.

edited to add final paragraph sorry

Sure, the Swiss bell curve is in part smaller due to a smaller population. This whole thing has become absurd. I don't blame UT for being amused. I suspect that if my Aunt Elsa were to read it, she'd be in hysterics. What a silly circular argument we've all been having. :dead:

America's very foundation is war, a nasty, brutal war known as the American Revolution. But Europe can hardly reasonably hold that against us without forgetting its own history.

You do know that "Friends" is fiction, a situation comedy, right?

A price war is when competitors engage in a competition for customers by lowering prices. This is a problem?

Ahh, yes, the "America is responsible for all the troubles of the world" theory. As for Free Trade Zones, seems to me the largest one is in Europe.

Eh? They're tourists. On vacation for a week or two, maybe a month at the outside, how are they to "involve themselves in the local culture"? As for the rest, much of that is sampling bias; the assholes tend to be noticed. Not that there's any shortage of obnoxious Americans, granted.

Which is why the British needed to forge a telegram to get the US into WWI, which is why the US didn't enter WWII until attacked, which is why the US made no moves against the Taliban until attacked by their associates, etc. Oh, sure, you can find times (putting Iraq aside for the moment) where the US has acted in a trigger-happy manner (Grenada, the Spanish-American War, Vietnam -- though note in the last two cases a provocation was invented to get the American public's support), but what you call lack of euphemism is rather ridiculous overstatement.

You do know that "Friends" is fiction, a situation comedy, right?

as are Fox and Films.

I'll bet a slow drawing-and-quartering would be suitably torturous.

It figures. Sadaam liked him too. Clinton was a power-abusing, wishy-washy idiot. Don't bother to defend him if you like him. I'm not issuing a challenge, just stating my opinion.