I'm having fun actually. I'm waiting for ticket numbers and departure times.

I'm not leaving--I'm getting dual citizenship so when I travel to the UK I won't be shot!---Oh, am leaving for England, Ireland and Wales June 12, 2005 with some kids from Wilmington college (southwest Ohio) "Origins of Religions" tour. I'll bet I'm not the only "canadian" in the bunch, eh?

Not quite.

Easy for you to say. You're new tagline says it all. "My guy won." Well, your guy winning will make it just that much more difficult for me to get on with my life, and I'm not alone. There are many, many more Americans like me - decent people who just are down on their luck, and the Bush/Republican domestic policy is to merely discard us. I hope you're prepared to be personally accountable for the outcomes of the next 4 years since "your guy won." :greenface

I haven't even started.

Hardly. I just hoped for something different than we've had. Maybe some progress.

I think it's interesting you consider the civil war a "little uprising".

I completely and fully plan on it. You're welcome.

But it was people who had access to roughly the same level of weapon technology as their opposition. Joe Average is just SLIGHTLY outgunned when compared to our armed forces and law enforcement, and that's leaving out the heavy stuff.

If you voted for Bush, then your guy won. So of course you don't feel a need to 'vent drama'. But you're right. This happens every four years. All this means is that we are DEFINITELY going to be able to get rid of Bush. So all we have to worry about is Bush and Co. trying so pull some crap about allowing him a third term when he finds his War on Terror isn't quite over in 2008.

Who is "we?" You and the mouse in your pocket?
:)

You're forgetting three things:

1) do you think that all members of the armed forces are happy with the situation?

2) how many members of the armed forces do you think are willing to actually fire on US citizens?

3) do you think enough of the weapons in this country are accouted for that the military is willing to mount such an offensive in the first place?

shhhhh. I'm trying to encourage radar to leave the country.

1) No, but they _do_ know how to follow orders, particularly when they feel that right is on their side. When citizens are engaging in armed insurrection against the government, they won't get much sympathy.

2) If the citizens are armed and ready to fire on them, enough. You wanna go first?

3) I have no idea what you mean by that. The armed forces have FAR superior weaponry to anything to which the general public has access.

Or are there liberal armories with assault weapons, attack helicopters and such that I haven't been told about yet?

If you believe there will be a draft, and you voted on that basis, you are a loser, an idiot, and a moron, and I can prove it to within several significant digits.

Where the hell is slang when I need him... :)

Okay, I REALLY need someone to explain to me (apparently because I'm stupid) why someone who voted for Bush is a retarted rabbit.

I am simply not grasping the source of all the vitrolic rage coming from the blue camp today.

51% of the American people chose what they wanted. So that means we're getting what we WANT, not what we 'deserve'. More voters came to the polls this year than did any other year since Kennedy was elected in 1960. This is the first year that the president won both the popular vote as well as the Electoral college.

You may not be happy with what happened last night. You may be plotting to have Ohio surgically removed from the union. You may even be thinking about moving to Canada (mapquest has good directions....have at it). But why does a difference in opinion make someone stupid?

If you didn't vote, you have no right to open your mouth. (But I think most of you did - unfortunately, I deal with the "I didn't vote , but Kerry should have won" population at the office.)

I didn't vote on that basis, UT. It IS a consideration. Prove it. And I don't believe I am an idiot, loser or moron. Other people are, though. Nyah!

I just have one thought on this whole situation....

Democrats have generally been supporters of more Social Programs...the funding of which comes from where....let's see...more tax dollars, which in turn reduces my pay check. Republicans have generally be supporters of fewer Social Programs, preferring that people do what they can to support themselves...which in turn...keeps the money I earn, in MY pocket. Now, I'm not questioning why you may or may not be working. I'm also not saying that it may or may not be a valid reason to be relying on social programs.

But personally, I don't think the Republican Domestic policy is to discard people - in turn, it's a movement to get people to be more personally responsible for their own lives, health and welfare - rather than relying on the Government to support them, pay their bills, give them goodies.

You have bootstraps....tug on them, you may be suprised where you get.

And before you jump on my back....I'm a single, white woman, living on my own, making a minimal salary, with my own health issues and not taking a single blessed dime from the Government. And damn proud of it.

My point is that there are a lot of factors that go into the situation. There are going to be people from the military that refuse to fight americans, hell there are going to be people who line up for it, and there are more guns and people outside of the military than in it.

UT, could you please share that information, it could be handy this afternoon.

Dag

I used to think like you, Dagney. I am just like you only I make pretty good money (for slave labor, that is.)--The republican's tax just as much as the dems only instead of giving it back to the people--where it belongs--they give it to companies like enron, halliburton, adelphia, oh, and to themselves. They squeeze the middle class. My hospital doesn't turn people away because they've no insurance--they eat the cost. Teachers don't deny their students classroom goods, they just pay for it themselves, out of their own pockets, because the money that was supposed to be there from the gov't is now in some rich white guys pocket.

Hrmm..you didn't get your tax cut in 2003?

Nope. I've got about four more years of drama left, or at least as long as it'll be legal to vent it.

My primary political party is now marginalized to a point that won't be recoverable for decades, if ever. There is no reason for the Republicans to even pretend to work towards bipartisanism; the likes of DeLay will use this mandate as a bludgeon to do what they want, how they want, when they want, with Senatorial filibusters remaining the Democrats' last-ditch and rarely-used method of delaying the inevitable. Not preventing; delaying.

More wars. More dead bodies. More tax cuts. Higher deficits. More faith-based programs and rhetoric. More redistricting follies. More input from the religious right. More frontal assaults on social and economic programs. More ultraconservative judges on the Supreme Court. More Ashcroft. More pressure on the remaining Democrats to cave in and simply give the Republicans everything they want.

THAT'S what yesterday's election endorsed; it was anything but a simple choice of one leader versus another. The Democratic Party wasn't defeated, it was fucking slaughtered across the board, apart from the mercy killing of Alan Keyes. The Democrats had been reduced to a whimper _before_ this last stand, and the evangelicals came out to ensure that not only would it stay that way, but that the country'd be FURTHER tilted in the God, Guns and Anti-Gay direction.

The Religious Right is at the controls in ways they never managed even during the Reagan administration. The Constitution Restoration Act (which would remove the Supreme and federal courts' jurisdiction over any Establishment Clause issues)? It's coming. We barely dodged it the last time. There is an absolutely _desperate_ need for the remaining Democrats to block as many judicial appointments as possible now, and it's simply (IMHO) not going to happen.

So yeah, I _am_ fucking angry and nervous and scared and needing to vent. The two-party political system I've grown up knowing is over now; now it's a 900-pound gorilla dictating terms to its token opposition and to the world at large. If you're seriously suggesting that I should "get over it" before the corpse is even cold, you can go screw yourself.

We had this discussion last night, while watching the election returns. I have voted before, many times, and my choice has lost sometimes. I have never felt as much rage and befuddlement as I have felt during this election. I think, more than anything, it's the war in Iraq.

Economic and domestic differences are minor compared to the fact that innocent people (i.e. collateral damage) are being killed regularly by American forces. People who vote for George Bush are endorsing this kind of behaviour and I feel it's a divide I cannot bridge.

I have to believe it's stupidity of the sort herd animals exhibit when blindly following a herd leader. Otherwise, it's a deliberate decision on the American voter's part that other people in the world are not worth as much as Americans are. ("If we fight the terror war in Iraq, they'll leave the U.S. alone." Why is an Iraqi child worth less than an American one?) If our vote is deliberate rather than sheer stupidity, I am ashamed to be an American. We are the terrorists in Iraq, and we deserve what we get. And George Bush will NEVER get his hands on my children to fight his senseless, evil wars.

that wasn't a cut, dag. that was an advance.

Why leave
 

All of this talk of George Bush's evilness and the evil nature of all his pursuits begs the question: Isn't he just a manifestation of this country's essence? Sure America gets what it deserves, because America was asleep making money while our government, our miltary, and corporate eminsaries of our government and military were raping the world. Why wake up now? It was all fun and games when times were good and the World Trade Center was still standing, who cares at the time if we're funding groups that lead to the death and opression of thousands of people while claiming to look for fair settlements, freedom and peace, we were drinking lattes and making money. Now when the preverbial shit hits the fan, no one wants to commit to the Militrary-globalist-imperial-capitalisitc machine that keeps all our fat mouths and egos fed. Wake up! It's either your part of the team or not It's either your for oppressive global trade and military practices that slant economic trends towards the US or not, there's no in between. People really think at this point we can turn around and live our little greedy lives withough fitting the bill, they're wrong. It's either we give up a hell of a lot, or we continue to fight these wars, bottom line. If you don't like, quit your job and take up arms, mobilize a formidible opposition, or be part of the pillaging and war machine, otherwise your just straddling the fence I'm afraid.

-Walrus

And yet, the red states are the ones that get most of the tax dollars, from the blue states. It would be a bit of justice if we told the red states to go and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.Of course, that idiom is used to refer to people with remarkable skill or luck, since taken literally it is impossible. Most people who tug on their shoes will squish their toes, not float into the air.

Well I think we had this discussion here but -- the Pentagon doesn't want or need a draft. Democrat Rangel introduced a bill to reinstate the draft two years ago. Nobody cared. A few weeks ago the legislators brought it back out to make a point, and subsequently voted it down unanimously. Even Rangel voted against his own bill.

A draft is so politically unpopular that neither side will bring it about lest they be voted out the next election. The Pentagon is able to recruit effectively if/when they want to.

All this did not stop Kerry from pressing it in rumorlike fashion, never saying "He will bring back the draft", but instead saying things like "backdoor draft" to describe a condition that volunteers volunteered themselves for. Dancing around the issue in order to take it. The truth is that the draft reflected a different national personality and different national conditions.

The difficult truth is that those red states seem unwilling to believe the D party can be hard-nosed on national defense. Whining about a draft that doesn't and won't exist, won't help.

No draft--just extension of tours ad infinitem? You've no idea what's to happen in the next four years. No crystal ball. My sons will not go. I'd like to see Jenna and Barbara headed out to Iraq, though.

Look at the bright side: now you have someone to blame. Someone for whom responsibility for your situation can be continuously assigned.

If your sons don't want to go, then they shouldn't sign up.

But, doing so is their choice, not yours.

I'm imagining something like the distress felt by pagan families when they find out they've raised a good Christian.

You children will do what they wish to do, and that could even including joining the military.

I come from a good liberal family, you know. My mother is quite ashamed that I'm a conservative. You think you guys are bad in your distress over the Bush Victory? At least I can talk back to you ... talking back to my elderly mother with a heart condition results in trips to the ER that I can do without.

I wouldn't mind seeing that myself. :D

The senators and representatives that I wrote to all stated to the effect that "we won't vote for a draft unless we have to vote for a draft."

Hardly inspires confidence there won't be one. With declining recruitment numbers, I don't discount it. With more than half the people in America voting for Bush's policies and now a Republican Congress to back him up, who knows what will happen?

Yes Bri, nobody wants YOUR progeny to be serving their country. Nowadays they want the ones who don't pee their pants at the first sign of danger.

The days of cannon fodder are over, but if you want to be a moron, a loser, and an idiot, go ahead and vote on the basis of little more than whim. Because that's how we get great leaders!

UT, you usually avoid the personal attacks, I don't think this merits that kind of rubbish, why do you? Considering the way things are going in Iraq, not to mention TWAT in general, while a flat out draft is unlikely the chances of er....increased suggestions of a career dodging roadside bombs and mortars is likely.

Bri isn't interested in reading for comprehension.

To what effect?

If the Republican Party and Bush administration can do what they've done over the past four years and not only win but win across the board, they have no reason to care what those outside their voter base think.

The next opportunity for rank-and-file citizens to express their discontent in any meaningful way is two years away, the midterm Congressional elections. In between then and now, the administration can do whatever damage they want, and force-feed as many theocrats into judicial appointments as possible. If the Democrats can find a way to stem the "moral values" tide between now and then in any measurable capacity, I'll be quite surprised.

Hm. Anyone with a differing opinion is a moron, eh? BTW, my kids are really not up for you to insult. That's waaaay beneath you.

Hint: Look up the meaning of "representative democracy" and "democratic republic".

The key is in your statement "more than half the people" ...

Oh, you know what?? Now that UT has explained it all to me (moron that I am) I TOTALLY see the error of my stupid ways and am now reformed! I SAID I didn't vote based on the draft issue---or, didn't you read for comprehension there?

How could you say that about my kids?

Fine, I take it back.

Somehow, I missed your point.

Cool down, guys. Pick up a pen, write a letter to your representative/post flyers declaring your angst/whatever. This country has been so badly polarized for this long, I'm hoping everyone finds the time to cool down now that its over.

And have a drink, tonight, for Chrissakes. Relax. This election has been more stressful on everyone than most people realize.

You bet. So if I see a situation that I percieve as being wrong, I'm supposed to shut up about it, and take it on the chin like a girl. Otherwise I'm playing the role of victim. That way you can do as you please without being accountable. Nice try.

My representative is Curt Weldon, who cosponsored a restart-the-draft bill BEFORE Rangel's bill.

My senators are Arlen Specter and Rick "Man-on-Dog" Santorum.

None of them could give a rat's ass what a suburban Democrat thinks.

Hear, hear! Colorado elected one democrat to the Senate. He may care what I think, but with a Republican President and Republican Congress and, most likely, a Republican Supreme Court, what's he gonna be able to do about it?

I wish they would institute the draft
 

Quote: "Always be wary of conflicts faught in your name that you are not asked to participate in" - Walrus

I start with one of my more sardonic statements to make this point: There's no draft because the will of the people to actually paticipate in this conflict is next to nothing. This is part of Charlie Rangel's contention. Although his reasoning is that it should effect law makers decisions if there children were forced to hide from a standing draft. My assertion is that this would awake the American people to the realities of the conflict in ways that are nothing short than extreme. Bush and the military-industrial complex don't want to alarm the coffers that the American tax payer offers. They start sending regular kids to die in the sand, you would see a lot of angry citizens. These are citizens not from military backgrounds, like many of the volunteers we see fighting today. A draft would mean true re-enfranchisement of the electorate, we would truly have a right, because regular people's lives would be on the line. All this would mean more people would want to be involved in decsion making, and policy would be harder to control.

-Walrus

I have to admit that the results of this election look truly awful, but a vote by 51% of the population does not mean that this country is a 100% loss, no matter how you consider the implications. The people of this country are still nearly split in half, so we are not alone in our emotions. So while I have no intentions of keeping quiet and attempting to pretend I'm pleased over the state of our nation and the administration, I do plan to do good with the energy derrived from my displeasure, even if it means writing letters to whoever will listen to my concerns.

And, I've already figured out, arguing and debating about the petty issues in this election does no good. In fact, I firmly believe that those tactics are what did John Kerry in. The only way you'll make a difference is to make people aware of the changes that are coming and why you are concerned about them. This is our chance to witness these changes in action, make them noticed, and correct the future through our actions and words. We endured four years, we can do four more. And four more could well swing this country in the other direction.

Or, maybe it'll all just fall straight to hell. I dunno.

I'm pretty sure that this is the beginning of a full blown war with multiple participants. something stupid will happen in Korea, and we'll be in a land war in China before we know it. On the bright side....

....uhm...

......i got nothin' here.

It is inebitabull...

Excuse me?

OK, I tried kissing and making up down in the philosophy forum, and no one seems ready for that. FINE!

If you are so worried about your damn pocket book then why aren't you whining about hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars, not to mention lives thrown away in a stupid war to no end. That's where your tax dollars are going NOT to a few very inadequately funded social programs that cost in the mere hundreds of millions. We are talking about social irresponsibility here, NOT fiscal responsibility, but you conservatives are too bone-headed to get it.

You can take your pride and stick it where the sun don't shine, honey. That's what I've had to do with mine. I'm a single white woman who fought like a tiger to get back on her feet, and what I got in return was bullshit. When I needed a hand, the Republican backed system refused to give me anything back that I paid into it for a good 25 years.. F--K them and their whiney "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" BS. I came from a working class family. My father was an NCO in the military. I still managed to get two graduate degrees and make a better life for myself until something beyond my control happened to me. So what's wrong with YOU? You are whining to the wrong person about bootstraps and minmum wage. Go back to school and shut up.

mmm-tried to tell her, mari, that republicans tax as much as dems only republicans KEEP the money where dem's redistribute it...she didn't bite. Then she asked me if I'd rec'd my "tax cut"--HA! was no tax cut--was merely an advance on what I would have gotten back anyfuckingway. No response from dag on either point.
whatever.

The September 11th attacks were better news for America than this election.

I dont know if the draft will come back, but it is not a ridiculous notion.
I know that the military is stretched very thin. I know that the various service divisions have not made their recruiting goals and are now offering a variety of new bonus incentives. I do know that a provision of the No Child Left Behind law seeks to collect the names and addresses of young men, and soon, young women of draftable age, and currently uses this info to direct recruit. I do see that Rumsfeld's bold rethinking of the military has ignored the Powell doctrine and what was learned in Vietnam. And it seems that something must give. So we'll see. Perhaps we will succeed quickly in Iraq and Afghanistan. Or perhaps we will suffer another catastrophic attack that will spur enlistment just when we need it most. I hope its the former.

Or once the elections in Iraq take place, Bush could just declare victory and cut them loose. I don't think it would take much prodding for the press to not cover any ensuing chaos in the country. We could then blissfully forget we ever went there.

UT assures me that the draft WILL NOT happen. How dare you? He says anyone who thinks the draft MAY happen is a moron, idiot and something else I can't recall. Oh,yeah, "Loser"---geeez, you're stupid.

He's been wrong before, the optimist. I still love him. (He cuts me the same slack, I hope.)
And hey, I hope he is right! :)

That's not what I said Bri.

Warch and I know how to disagree. At the end of the day, it don't matter 'tall.

Now that Cheney is at the wheel for 4 more years! It does my heart somewhat good to realize that the state of MS. has no monopoly on illiterate, uninformed, unwashed and poor misguide folks.

When is a good time to leave? In your opinion? :question:

Is there one? I'm afraid Bush got us into a no-win situation.