Sorreeee! didn't realize this was your playground. :rolleyes: I'll take my ball and go rather than spend recess doing your homework.

Or alternatively, how about you get down off your little soapbox there and experience some real life? In 2001, when you were expounding away on that thread, I didn't have a driving licence. I was 31 years old and could not buy alcohol, open a bank account, join a gym, prove my residence.... all things you should not need a driving licence for -a passport and valid visa should more than suffice- but regardless of what the card is intended for it is what it's used for that counts and it is used as an ID card. Like I said, AS FAR AS I CAN TELL it acts as an ID card. That means it's my opinion from my experience. I'm not forcing you to feel the same -why get all emotional and demand I read your past sermons on the topic before continuing to post?

So if an illegal alien isn't committing a crime, a law enforcement officer who suspects that person of being illegal, therefor has no right to ask for identification?

Well technically being there illegally is an ongoing commission of a crime, so...

Yes, but if there's no visible crime being committed then what excuse would they have for stopping the possible citizen and asking for id (according to the logic of rkz's argument)? See my point?

Of course I see it, I was just pointing that out.

Yeah, kick him in the nuts, too.:haha:
Jeez Monster, how are you going to pass this course if you piss off the Prof? The fact that you're absolutely right doesn't matter.

For commerce and most low/medium level government functions the drivers license, or equivalent state photo ID if you don't have a license, have been the defacto acceptable ID. Come to think of it, why would the state bother issuing the photo IDs for non-drivers, if it wasn't the acceptable (read necessary) ID.

A short time ago I went to cash a check at the bank and as usual they asked for my drivers license. I looked where it usually is in my wallet and didn't see it so rather than make the teller wait while I looked, I handed her my carry permit. It looks like a license, photo, laminated, all the same info except drivers license number, plus all the official bells and whistles. They wouldn't accept it....to cash my check, on my account, at my bank...they would only take a drivers license or state substitute photo ID. That experience tells me the Drivers license IS the default ID.

The difference is you are not required to carry any of those things. You don't have to be able to prove who you are and where you belong...yet.

No, I don't know if that guy walking down the road is a citizen or not and I'm not happy about that. It's not my fault it's theirs, for not taking care of business and keeping people that don't belong here, out.
That means anyone that came in through the bathroom window instead of the front door and the ones that asked to use the toilet before they left and hid in the closet.
I should have to carry and produce on demand, an ID, because they aren't doing their job. Fuck that, I already have to press 1 for English. Let them do what they get paid to do and primary is protecting the borders. Because you're looking in the wrong place. You can't picture the Prez and the heads of the FBI, CIA, Homeland Security, DEA, BATF, DOD, the Military, and Congress sitting down in a secure bunker, planning to subjugate the population? Neither can I, possible but pretty far fetched at this point.

But, if they institute a National ID that you must have, then every Tom, Dick and Crossing Guard can hassle you for any reason.....including sport.
Oh, were going to limit that power to Homeland Security......and the FBI........and The DEA......and the BATF......well just feds....and the people they designate...like tom, dick and guess who. Plus in a year or two, crossing guards will be under Homeland Security, everyone else is.
The people that come up with these high minded solutions aren't evilly plotting 1984, but the systems they have the power to implement, can be abused by too many dickheads. I can see businesses getting in on the act to. Cigarettes, liquor, ammo, gasoline..... no National ID, no ration.


Lets see your papers...hmmm can't get into the database, must be a computer problem... I'll have to detain you until they fix it. Uh, since your ice cream is going to melt any way......

31 years old and still carded? 31 years old and don't have a license? From perspective of the alcohol vendor (and notice use of the word perspective before taking insult), apparently behavior implied you were 10+ years younger. Same applies to your reply. An adult would have gone for facts - the deleted hyperlink. An adult child, instead, takes insult of a post that only says, "First read the facts." Amazing that at 31+ years old, you still entertain your emotions rather than logic. Now maybe we can pretend you did not post that; instead go back to what that sentence really said.

Meanwhile, that alcohol distributor demanded a driver's license because he must protect himself from the powers that be - the government. He demanded a driver's license to protect himself from government prosecution. But again, the ID serves government – not you. Why do you instead twist his actions in terms only of YOU? Take god's perspective to appreciate what happened. You were not important or relevant when he demanded a driver’s license. He demanded the driver's license to protect himself and to meet government requirements. YOU were irrelevant. The ID was demanded to serve government - the law.

Some distributors here have been burned so many times as to even refuse any NJ license. Yes, a driver's license is an inferior ID because its only function is to serve government - so that government can ID you. Your driver's license does not prove to anyone who you are. It says little without access to that government database. Some demand driver's licenses because *no* ID proof exists AND because no ID protection system exists.

Rather then take insult at a post that bluntly and therefore honestly stated facts, monster; instead read those facts. You deleted an important and relevant part of the sentence. Apparently you so ignored the purpose of that sentence as to even delete the hyperlink. Therefore an entire sentence that insults no one is now reposted: What is in that sentence? Exactly what one adult says to another adult. However monster would try to insult me by replying emotionally as a child; rather than factually as an adult. Shame on you replying without first learning facts from a previous discussion. Shame on you for doing what children do - post an emotional tirade.

Monster, if I wanted to insult you, then I would repeatedly discuss why a 31 year old was so childish as to be carded. But that is not what I posted. Again, read with care before assuming anything emotional. A fundamental difference exists between describing what an alcohol vendor did verses a post intended to insult you. If you don't see the difference, then we are back to discussing adult children. I would prefer it if you stuck to facts as an adult would. Facts to learn before replying are in A National ID Card.

You want to read that previous discussion before replying in an unemotional manner and with a logical grasp. Your driver's license is only for government to ID you. You have no sufficient method to prove you are who you claim. And around here, even some driver's licenses are rejected - not acceptable as ID because driver's licenses are not sufficient ID proof.

But again, facts were posted previously in the ignored discussion A National ID Card.

An alcohol vendor asking for ID does not do so because of some vague demand from the government to produce a piece of paper, he does it because he cannot sell his wares to minors. The guy behind the checkout probably asked for ID because the store policy is to always check age no matter what, keeps someone from guessing wrong. A law forbidding the sale of alcohol to minors serves society because productive members of society are forced to bear the cost of the damage underage drinking does. The law serves my best interests, and therefore I would hope that every vendor asks for ID.
With the pathetic state of immigration control in this country we need to develop ID that is either prohibitively difficult or expensive to forge, a drivers license is neither. Yes, I think that every citizen should be prepared to prove who they are at all times, and with a proper ID system this would be so simple as to be trivial.

9th Engineer knows the only reason that clerk demands a driver's license from 31 year old monster is because the clerk is worried about 9th Engineer? When law was not enforced (before days of MADD), a clerk did not ask a 31 year old for ID. When did a clerk start asking for ID? Only when the law and government demanded that clerk do so.

Does clerk demand a driver's license because 9th is so important? Of course not. As one becomes adult, one learns the world does not revolve around 9th. Obviously the clerk cares little for 9th - today or when government did not demand it. Clerk demands a driver's license for only one reason. For the same reason that driver's license exists. License serves government purposes. License is does not serve a citizen’s ID purposes - nor was it ever intended for that purpose.

Clerk only does because government demands. Nothing vague. Only vague part is why 9th thinks he any standing in a transaction between that clerk and monster. Does the world revolve around 9th?

Meanwhile, a driver’s license is so that government can ID a person. Serving government is its purpose. A license, without that government controlled database, is woefully insufficient as ID – which is also why ID theft is so easy. We need an ID because ...? Answer was detailed in the previous discussion.

Clerk asks for a driver’s license for only one reason – government demands it. Nothing vague here. Government demands it. License's only purpose: to serve government. And that is the point. We have no ID system to serve us. None.

:lol: long response to some one so clearly beneath your contempt! (oh wait, that's an emotion isn't it? Scratch that.) Thank you for your compliments regarding my maturity -it is something I've been working on. :D

oh, and you're still missing the point -my post was my opinion based on my experience. Whether you agree or not is entirely irrelevant. Important though I'm sure you are. Well at least you're sure you are.

/hook, line and sinker
//still carded and I'm now 36 -perhaps you're jealous? ;)

I'd love to read who you think I am based on the few posts of mine you have read. Clearly you already have me pegged as horribly immature -pray, do continue.... Background, education level, skin color, occupation etc. But wait 'til I get some Depends.

Have you ever bothered to take that thought any further and ask WHY the government demands it tw?

I worked at a grocery store where the served alcohol and they ask for ID because they don't want an employee to misjudge someone and get fined by the government for selling alcohol to people underage.

If the law wasn't enforced then they would allow underaged peoples to buy it because it will give them more money. It makes no sense for a company to deny a customer of a purchase unless it will hurt them in the long run.

(If the DL wasn't treated as an official ID card, they'd accept a passport as proof of age ;))

((....DLs aren't issued nationally, but are accepted nationally as proof of age/ID therefore they ACT AS NATIONAL ID CARDS.... no?))

In most cases, clerks ask for id because the law is such that they're personally liable if they sell products like alcohol to minors. If they weren't, why would they care?