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Originally Posted by Undertoad
(Post 376367)
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Purely focusing on the Palestinians, yes, this is a problem but it is hard differiate what is out of pure desperation and what is just selfish gain. It is very hard to tell with the contradicting information we get about Palestine and the situation they are in.
Many other societies (Rwanda and Easter Island for example) have been through this in the past where conditions became so bad that small individual gains would always beat the big long term gains for society. People in Rwanda would sell off part of their land to larger landowners to buy food knowing that they would need that land in the future to survive. And this is just like the question asked by students studying the history of Easter Island "What was the person that cut down the last tree on Easter Island thinking when he did it?".
Ignoring the past and only focusing on the present, if this is an act out of pure desperation, then there is truly no hope for the Palestinians (unless something bigger than what is currently happening changes) and their downward spiral will continue no matter how much effort is put in to help them because any long term investment will instantly be destroyed to fulfill the hungry's stomach for a day. If this is out of selfish gain, then it is a problem that can be fixed. Then the majority should focus on stopping the minority of looters that does not represent the majority that may want to work for a larger gain. The realism of the past sentence is very doubtful and I have hard time believing that anything could happen even if they tried.
Since the whole Palestine-Israel conflict is cause and effect, so you can not ignore the question of whether Israel caused the desperation.
Israel is in a catch 22 and they will lose no matter what they do. Building illegal walls may help their immediate interests but will most likely hurt them later on down the road when the Palestinians become even more violent.
It’s kind of like the problem America has with terrorists. To defend ourselves against them by using methods that will only create more terrorists, how are you helping yourself?
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But Israel decided on a policy of building a wall and bulldozing the houses of the families. And what do you know, it worked.
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It just covered up the problem, didn’t solve anything.
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They were told "don't attack us over that border again or we will kick your ass and take your land." They attacked over that border. They had their land tooken. Now you describe that land taking as "theft". I suppose Israel should have said, "Please attack us across that border because we aren't going to do anything about it." Or perhaps, "If you attack us over that border we will declare 'total war' and kill every last one of you."
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And the Palestinians said “if you don’t leave the area we will attack you”. It is an issue that goes back and forth for thirty years, unless there is a legitimate compromise (all the ones in the past have been shit), neither side will stop because there interests are overlapping eachother tremendously.
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Criticizing voting in terrorists is arrogance. This is what it comes to, from your side
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Hamas being a terrorist organization is not clear cut. Most Palestinians do not consider them a terrorist state because Israel can be considered an occupying force making Hamas a resistance movement. Their attacking of civilians is inexcusable but the fact that they shouldn’t be there in the first place is what makes that subject so controversial.
And the Palestinians voting in Hamas has its legitimate reasons so stop focusing on one issue.
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Hamas's militant stance has found a receptive audience among Palestinians; many perceived the preceding Fatah government as corrupt and ineffective, and Hamas's supporters see it as an "armed resistance" movement defending Palestinians from what they see as a brutal Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. Hamas has further gained popularity by establishing "hospitals, education systems, libraries and social services" throughout the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
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. You know, other people in the world far worse off, far harsher situations and treated more brutally, have not become terroristic. Why IS that.
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Why did Rwanda resort to genocide when other areas didn’t? Because of other factors involved. There is no other place in the world that has as many variables to the equation as Palestine (besides Iraq but that still has its differences), it is much more complicated then any other region, so they will act differently then other places. You can not focus on one issue with this problem.
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It's five generations now since the original creation. Maybe time to grow the fuck up and stop hating and get on with life. Maybe time you stopped supporting the haters by endlessly rationalizing what they do. The state of Israel can produce enough jobs to support every single Pal. A perfect bootstrap for a nation is to have a wealthy nation on the border building factories and stuff. All they have to do is grow up. We all hoped once Arafat was gone it would cause them to do so.
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That is why I am pro-bi-national state but both sides have to grow up on this issue for it to even by halfway successful, not just the Palestinians.
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The fact is, Palestinians have been lied to. And as a result, they have hope. They have the hope that they can destroy Israel and that this is the answer to all their problems.
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I don’t honesetly think that many think they can actually destroy the state of Israel. It is just that over half of Palestinians don’t think that they could survive in the separate Palestinian state, which explains their allegiance to a group that calls for the destruction of Israel. In my opinion, a bi-national state is the only way to solve this process peacefully in the long run but no is willing to look at it.
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Because people like you (and most of Europe) have bought into all the lies, all the crap, all the nonsense and repeated it back to them. Oh yes, the reason you aren't successful is a wall. Oh yes, the reason you aren't successful is because the other is creating a bad condition for you. Oh yes, the whole UN agrees with you, to the point where real refugees having actual human rights violations are utterly ignored, just so that they can gang up on Israel again.
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How do you know that it is the “lies” being told to them that mold their opinions? If I went back in time to the south in the 1700s and started giving speeches to the black slaves there, do you think they wouldn’t already think that the problem is the white slave-owners and the whole society that holds them down? I’m pretty sure most Palestinians hate Israel for their own reasons and the “lies” have very little to do with it.
