Less stability too often happens when government is imposed on the nation. Stable only while the 'dictatorship' is imposed.

Was the government of S Vietnam a democracy? Hardly. Another example of corrupt government imposed on the people by outside forces. Once outside forces and corrupt government was removed, the country went through painful adjustment and became prosperous.

In Iraq, how many governments were propped up by Americans? Maliki is simply (what?) the fourth imposed American government. George Jr learned nothing from his father. In fact, many vocal critics of "Mission Accomplished" are George Sr's closest friends.

George Sr was asked why he does not advise his son. He wanted to let his son be his own man; make his own decisions. But George Sr never trusted people such as Rumsfeld and blames them (without listing specific names) for George Jr's problems.

Who did George Jr consult before invading Iraq? He listed only two - Cheney and god. Don't fool yourself. George Sr is never consulted by George Jr. Worse, when George Jr does make a decision (ie submitting Harriet Miers for the Supreme Court), then Cheney leaves George Jr embarrassingly hanging. These techniques are how Cheney keeps George Jr in line.

George Jr learned nothing from his father except by participating in his presidential campaign. George Jr was chosen by founding members of PNAC to be their figure head. Cheney makes the decision. If doubtful, well, both Powell and Sec of Treasury O'Neill state same.

Adding my voice to the chorus! Bravo!

Wow! You were around back then? I thought I was old!

So Detroit's decline has nothing to do with union excesses?

George Bush

Er I meant 2000.

Did you even work in a US auto plant? I did. Sometimes company engineers could not do something. They had to get permission from bosses who did not even know what engineers do. So I would find a union guy. We fixed it anyway.

Why do some blame the unions? That boss has no idea how things get done - so blames the union workers for all messes. Remember when AT&T wiped out all long distance telephone service to NYC? Robert Allen was on TV by 4 PM blaming the union workers. Union workers were at a training session. Management was running the switching station, disconnected power, and wiped out all NYC long distance. So who really created the failure? Management that did not understand that warning from the union rep and let the problem fester. Same management that was so business school educated as to create the power loss and then blame the unions. It usually works that way. 85% of all problems are ....

spudcon - your posts repeatedly reflect a political agenda. That means you know something but do not know the underlying facts and numbers. One classic example is contempt for the American blue collar worker - ie unions are evil. Go work with these guys. Learn why failures happen. Learn from the man who taught the Japanese how to be so productive and to have quality - W. E. Deming. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. These same people murdered seven Challenger astronauts and then did same to seven Columbia astronauts. Don't believe me? Read the CAIB (Columbia Accident Investigation Board) report. Please learn from reality and stop listening to propaganda from political agendas.

A GM car cost more to build than a Mercedes Benz (comparatively equipped). Did you learn this? Did you learn why? So tell me. How many man-hours does it take to make every part from scratch? That means putting every thread on every bolt. Wind every electric motor. If unions are the problem, then you can tell me how many man-hours are required to build one car. As you answer this and following questions, then we will move from a political agenda to reality.

Please notice - I don't know these things only because I am told. Learn as I did. If unions were the problem, then answers to these questions are known and prove your point. Begin with basic knowledge, 'how many man-hours to assemble a car from scratch?'

42 - what did I win?

Nope, never been to Detroit. I have been a member of two unions tho, (Teamsters and machinists union) so I have experience with unions. It doesn't matter if you're making cars or widgets, union attitudes are as elitist as you think management is. They think they should be in charge of the factories, and then we would all be working in Utopia. My experience with union meetings and union leaders is they talk big, swear a lot, take the dues, and try to tell members how to vote.
Even a boss I once had who was a total jerk treated me better than any union.
As for engineers having to get permission from management to do something, where I worked, the union would not allow any engineer to lift any tool. They had to call in a union guy to tighten a screw some union guy left loose.
Sorry TW, you're the one with the agenda.

which somehow makes you an expert? Hardly. You see thing in good vs evil. Made more obvious because you never state underlying reasons why AND have an obvious distaste for doing so.

History is chock full of adversarial unions only created by adversarial management. One of the greatest examples was Henry Ford who suddenly realized this mistake, fired his Pinkerton Guards, stopped blaming the unions, and suddenly had no more strikes are more profitable plants.

How did Japan that suffered country wide union riots in the 1950s and 60s suddenly end this strife? Eventually all Japanese management learned the concepts of W E Deming where bosses work for the employees. Since employees were now making decisions, no more unions problems AND more productive companies.

It is a common problem among extremist who only see things as 'good or evil'. "Unions are evil", says Spudcon. It works only when you have a conclusion and don't even bother to first learn the whys. Spudcon - you don't even know who Deming is and yet know you are right. How sorry is that? Sorry enough to meet the definition of political extremist.

You saw a confrontational union? With your attitude, I am surprised they did not beat you up? Meanwhile, Chrysler has had no strikes since Lee Iacocca replace adversarial Townsend and Richardo - except in one plant. A Chrysler plant in IN struck for eight hours once. Clearly greed must have been apparent. Why? Workers wanted more work. The company obliged. No more disgruntled union workers. But Spudcon knows this could not be. Evil must be lurking somewhere in that union.

We also know Iran is evil. After all, their reform movement died completely as soon as George Jr declared them as an axis of evil. That proves Iran always was evil. The world according to Spudcon. Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men. Spudcon knows. But he does not even know who Deming is. No problem. Such facts are only details - get in the way of knowing.

The biggest problem with unions is the same problem with the country. 99% of the people don't want to get actively involved, let someone else do it.
Just pay your dues/taxes, maybe vote for the lesser of two evils running for office, bitch about the leadership, but don't bother doing the work to make it better.

Because I don't know who Deming is makes me an extremist? Sorry, I was only speaking from personal experience, not someone else's theories.

Spud, as you spend time in the Cellar, you will see more and more clearly that trying to talk sense to tw is to attempt to deal rationally with a crazyman. He is impervious. He also can get very carried away on theoreticals. It's so unrewarding that I doubt the man has a single friend, either in the Cellar or in 3D-space.

Thank God I live in a right to work state. No unions.

So the massa can continue to abuse the peons.