Snickered out loud.

I wish mine was only ten grand - It ended up being more than 5x that.

However my kids are older and I am far happier now.

YMMV

Sorry for you pain and frustration. I'm a fan of trying to make it work, even if you give it a go over and over again. We tried, we failed. I'm happy now, but it took a while to get back to happy. Sounds like you have a lot of friends here to lean on. Good luck to you.

That's what you get for being less poor than me.

Sorry to hear about it, footy. As you know, I have been through it, too. It wasn't pleasant and still isn't in a lot of ways. But if there is no other way to cope, then, you have to make the decision that is best for you and your family. The good news is, it does get better. :comfort:

Yeah, I suppose it's funny, but I posted it because I think it says something important about relationships.

mmm true.

I realize tonight and after talking with my doc that for real a 3rd person needs to be present when we talk since there is a big reality problem.

Things did not end up great for the kids tonight and the level of response was disproportionate to the (perceived) offenses.

Just super sucky.

I can relate to that. There were times with J, I wished I could surreptitiously record the conversation to be able to play it back after and try and make some fucking sense of it. And to have some kind of anchor for when half of what was said or agreed got edited out or altered in his memory. Other times I just wished someone else was there to see and maybe tell hm things he'd refuse to see if I was saying them. Kept landing in bizarroland conversations out the blue.

Not exactly the same, but I suspect it felt similar.

Sounds like a shitty tme 3ft. Hope you find a way through or over that doesn't hurt too much.

This sort of sounds like me while I was going menopausal. Just off the chart blow ups. The boys just weathered the storms. I'm so glad that's done.

That's such a good point, although f3 says it's happened forever. But if there's any chance homegirl is menopausal, that might explain why it's now that you can't take anymore and maybe give you hope for a better future.....

I heard/read/whatever that the three times when moms/daughters don't get on is daughter puberty and menopause of both.

they have a name for this, it's called counseling.

Have you been to counseling together before? It can also be called mediation, before or during divorce. I've been through all these, and I can report that they have widely varying degrees of efficacy. Very much depends on the skill of the people involved and even more so, the degree to which each party is willing to be changed. Coming from a bad situation, it's reasonable to expect a desire to change. Unfortunately, that change is most often desired to occur in the other person. *Sigh*.

I can remember when I felt Tink and I needed an interpreter or a referee. Those were bad days. I bring this up to show you my empathy creds, not to make this about me. Keep talking man.

wow Dana. I remember that same feeling very clearly. Recording the conversation turned out to be both impossibly clunky and utterly simple. We'd start a conversation/argument and within a couple sentences, we were arguing about what the other said/meant. This became such a habit it was practically unavoidable. Needless to say, we worked out practically nothing.

The answer to "recording" the conversations was simple too. We communicate mostly via email now for just this very reason. Of course, we still argue. But the volume is lower, and the you said she said he said is down to almost zero. OF COURSE, deciding to communicate via email while bumping elbows over the sink at tooth brushing time is ridiculous.

But having that record made communication possible again.

Sadly, to get to that point (email), we first had to use "training wheels" (read: Attorney$). That is to be avoided if possible.

There are times when I've done it, though. It accomplishes what you've said, plus there's a sense of importance when you see something in writing. My wife sometimes does not hear what I say, and this technique does make a difference. On the other hand, we're now in counselling.

I'd like to expand on my remarks.

Writing down what is on your mind and on your heart is an excellent way to communicate. It does have some complications. It is not very spontaneous compared to oral communication. There's no guarantee that the recipient will read it or understand it. Written communication misses many of the nuances of face to face communication where non verbal communication can be as rich as the words being spoken. Please note I say complications, not disadvantages.

In my experience, being less spontaneous was often an advantage since it gave me the time to deliberately compose my thoughts. Speaking in anger has almost always had very negative effects, and my anger was often cooled by the time I set pen to paper.

Being unsure that the recipient will "get it" literally and figuratively is a risk, but no more or less a risk than with verbal communication. Communication is the sending and receiving of information. Just saying it doesn't really make it communication. Nor does only writing it, but, unlike speech, writing out my thoughts is by itself a useful exercise. It is sometimes cathartic, or clarifying, and this *can* happen even without a receptive audience.

Writing can have a tone of voice, but it's not the same as vocal inflections. There's something magical about the human voice that touches us deeply. Unfortunately, in situations like this, the sensation that touch leaves is anger or frustration or despair or contempt. I have reacted to the tone and missed the words and this has crippled the communication. Missing that exquisite intensity can let me focus better on the content of what is being conveyed.

Writing's totally worth it, and I wholeheartedly recommend it. We have lots of tools, writing's one of them. Try them all, keep paying attention, use what works.