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-   Health (http://cellar.org/forumdisplay.php?f=33)
-   -   Transgender young people detransitioning (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=34619)

xoxoxoBruce 11-11-2019 01:54 PM
The purpose of waiting till they're 18 is they are a legal adult and can call the shots(no pun).
But if they have hormones blocked along the way are they actually an adult? Or just legal.
Isn't blocking hormones before 18 actually making a choice but not taking the responsibility for it?

Undertoad 11-11-2019 02:04 PM
Quote:
And gymnasts really do that?
Maybe, due to low body weight and intense, frequent exercise, but science says it also selects for short leg length and so may just be a product of selection.

DanaC 11-11-2019 02:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint (Post 1041191)
People don't seem to understand the flowchart on this.

Pathway #1 is that a person undergoes a normal puberty, turns 18, and then seeks medical intervention to attempt to reverse the hormonal effects, insomuch as this is possible. This isn't effective because some of the physiological effects of puberty are irreversible.

Pathway #2 is that the hormonal effects of puberty are delayed. This is physiologically no different than Olympic gymnasts having a delayed puberty. In this case, there are no physiological changes, and no irreversible changes of any kind. The person turns 18 and can seek medical intervention, without the added complication of attempting to reverse physiological changes that have already taken place.

...

There are no "transitioning" children-- this doesn't exist.
Depends on what we consider children. Girls as young as 13 can have radical mastectomies and hysterectomies with parental consent in some states in the US.

Hormone therapy can also start very young, I believe.

I don't know enough about it - but I do think there are risks of children being misdiagnosed with gender dysphoria and ending up on a railroad to transition.

On the other hand children who genuinely have gender dysmorphia absolutely need proper help and support with a view to transitioning.

Happy Monkey 11-11-2019 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint (Post 1041191)
In this case, there are no physiological changes, and no irreversible changes of any kind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luce (Post 1041192)
Interesting. Honest question: Do we know there are no side effects of delaying puberty?

And gymnasts really do that?
There are side effects, but they need to be weighed against the effects of the other choices. The medication is fairly safe, and has been in use to prevent early puberty for quite a while, but using it for this purpose is recent.

Gymnasts (mostly; I imagine every type of doping has been done at some point) don't take drugs to delay puberty, but their intense food and exercise regimen delays it*,
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 1041193)
Isn't blocking hormones before 18 actually making a choice but not taking the responsibility for it?
Yes it's a choice, but how is it not taking responsibility?

Doing nothing is also a choice, but I would think that people would be far more likely to try to avoid responsibility for something by claiming that they just let nature take its course than would people who went on a specific medical regimen.

DanaC 11-11-2019 02:09 PM
This video in particular was worrying:

DanaC 11-11-2019 02:13 PM
i have very mixed feelings about the whole thing. I particularly worry that kids who aren't actually transgender will end up on a path to transition - meanwhile, youngsters who need to transition may not get the level of support they need.

If it was just a medical thing we wouldn't be having this conversation - the political aspect of it is muddying the waters in really unhelpful ways.

DanaC 11-11-2019 02:20 PM
Withe regards to puberty blockers, I think there is a difference between delaying natural puberty (e.g to prevent early puberty as mentioned above) and preventing natural puberty altogether which is, as I understand it, what happens for some of these youngster - if they go from hormone blockers to hormone therapy, never go through the puberty their body would naturally go through as their biological sex, and then bringing about a kind of pseudo puberty with the hormones of the gender they are transitioning to.

Whether that can bring about a good outcome? I don;t know. Probably for some it will - but we do not fully understand the long term effects - it's a huge experiment.

xoxoxoBruce 11-11-2019 02:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Monkey (Post 1041197)
Yes it's a choice, but how is it not taking responsibility?
Juveniles aren't giving hormone blockers to themselves, parents, Doctors, some adult is calling the shots for the kid. In effect they're making the decision on a path but leaving it to the 18 year old to make the legal choice that others already laid out for them.
Yes, they can decide against that path but how many will after years of being prepped and brainwashed that it's the right path.

Happy Monkey 11-11-2019 02:38 PM
They make the choice what to do or not to do, whichever choice they make. And "not to do" is the choice that I would see as having the most hazard of not taking responsibility. And it's also the choice that is by far most likely to be "prepped and brainwashed" in favor of.

Flint 11-11-2019 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 1041201)
Juveniles aren't giving hormone blockers to themselves, parents, Doctors, some adult is calling the shots for the kid.
No. This is wrong. This is factually wrong. The kid is in intense counseling to deal with the physiological impacts of not conforming to society's expectations. It is 100% based on the kid and 0% based on what the parent wants.

Does the doctor physically write the prescription and physically hold the needle? Does the parent care about their kid, and not want them to commit suicide? Of course, but this is not "calling the shots" by any stretch of the imagination.

Clodfobble 11-11-2019 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaC
...we do not fully understand the long term effects - it's a huge experiment.
Unfortunately, the only way we get to study the long-term effects (of anything) is for folks to do it, and then study them. The "we have no data so we can't do it until we have data" argument is a tautology in any field.

Luce 11-11-2019 09:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 1041223)
Unfortunately, the only way we get to study the long-term effects (of anything) is for folks to do it, and then study them. The "we have no data so we can't do it until we have data" argument is a tautology in any field.
We could try it on rats for a while.

xoxoxoBruce 11-11-2019 10:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint (Post 1041208)
No. This is wrong. This is factually wrong. The kid is in intense counseling to deal with the physiological impacts of not conforming to society's expectations. It is 100% based on the kid and 0% based on what the parent wants.

Does the doctor physically write the prescription and physically hold the needle? Does the parent care about their kid, and not want them to commit suicide? Of course, but this is not "calling the shots" by any stretch of the imagination.
Are you telling me the parents and counselor don't have any influences of the kids decision? I can't buy that at all.
If you are right and the have no influence then the kid is making a choice before it's legal for him/her to do so.

Flint 11-12-2019 06:44 AM
I'm telling you "parents, Doctors, some adult is calling the shots for the kid" is wrong. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you want to move the goalpost to "have any influence" that's a longer, more nuanced discussion and I didn't engage you on that.

Griff 11-12-2019 06:58 AM
This conversation is around gender right now but with the bio-tech coming down the road it's going to get even more interesting. I self-identify as a corvid but am late to the transitioning game. (not making light of the current situation, just wondering how things will sort)


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