Too true. Nex time you go shopping look for the Fair Trade label, consider it an easy way to sell guilt.

Ah, irony.

My problem with Europe isn't what they do. It's that they've got no right or business doing it. I didn't elect the French government. I didn't elect the German one. I didn't elect the Spanish government, or the Italian, or the Polish, or the Hungarian, or the Irish, Austrian, Belgian, Cypriot, Czech, Danish, Estonian, Greek, Finnish, Latvian, Lithuanian, Luxembourgian, Maltese, Portuguese, Slovakian, Slovenian, Swedish, or the Netherlands governments.

I get to elect only one government, and that government is sworn to a duty of stewardship for this country. Not a single other government in Europe is sworn to look after the UK, and consequently it's wholly inappropriate that they should have the right to legislate for the UK.

I object, on the most fundamental level, to the surrender of our sovereign right to self-government to a body which is in no way obligated to govern in a fashion consistent with the interests of our country.

You and I have differing opinions on how the country should be run. You support a far more socialist point of view than I, and you espouse your views well. You, presumably, support the social chapter - I see it as super-governmental interference in the private relationship between me and my employer; interference I do not wish for, do not welcome, and do not appreciate. You have a right to your point of view, and I to mine; and as citizens of the UK, we both have a right to vote in elections which determine who should rule the country and therefore what the prevailing wish of the electorate is. The French, Germans (and everyone else in the list above) all have the same rights for their own country; I just don't believe in their right to determine what the UK should and should not do, any more than I believe I have a right to decide how they run their country.

The US sits on a border with Canada, and shares much trade with their northern neighbours. NAFTA grants relatively free passage of trade and goods across the border. Both countries have (depending on the metrics you use!) benefited from the arrangement as we've benefited from the easier flow of goods and services and skills throughout Europe. However, I humbly submit that if you were to propose that Canadian citizens should participate in electing the US president, both the Canadians and the Americans would consider you more than slightly off your rocker.

Europe-the-state is just odd. There's no precedent for it, there's little or no common ground thanks to the relatively capitalist, right-of-centre UK and the relatively socialist left-of-centre mainland Europe, our different working practices and work ethics, our different economies, etc etc.

I have nothing against our European neighbours; I just don't believe that they're the same as us. They're not better or worse; they're just different.

I value that diversity, and think it's actually worth preserving.

I haven't had much reason to reply to your posts evansk7........but it seems we have something in common. You feel the same way about Europe as I feel about that worthless band of theives and malcontents...............The UN!

Enter, pro UN cellarites.

Smells a little bit like "these" United States of America circa 1859.

Your right Griff, while I was reading that I was thinking states rights. :thumb: