And that would be the rapists, themselves.

People can be raised in horrible circumstances, and never do horrible things. Yes, parents and community are be contributors to an individual's understanding of and relation to the world, but they are not the sole determinant.

Ummm, no.

I wasn't raised by the best parents. They made some mistakes, and at some point, I had to make the decision whether to be a victim of it (a fuckup) or to be an upstanding, respectable person. I chose option 2, much as those abominations could have. Instead, they chose to gangrape and torture two poor immigrants who came to this country seeking the American dream, only to get the worst nightmare experience that America could serve up, and to top it off, the remorseless little pricks who did it probably won't receive punishment to fit the crime because of their age in spite of their very rational, adult planning and perpetration of the crime.

Yes, the parents should shoulder some responsibility. But all of it? No. Not even the bulk of it.

Agreed 100%. We try juveniles differently for a reason, and it's not because kids never do terrible things.

Ok, so if one of these "kids" is 15, lets say, he is tried and convicted at a speedy trial - serves the maximum we can sentence a "kid" to and is out on his 18th birthday after serving less than 3 years. You think thats justice?? Right?? Fair??

No, but you know what they say: You can't make an omelet without raping some eggs.

Are we sure Florida law says 18 and out?

I don't know, because I'm not a child psychologist or criminal scientist. I doubt that you are, either. The people who decided that children should be tried separately from adults, were.

It seems likely to me that a 15-year-old could change a lot in three years separated from his friends, harmful family influences, and whatever drugs he was probably doing, with the help of therapy and treatment for any mental illnesses. People don't just come in "good" and "bad" flavors, they can be ill, confused, high, angry at the world, unable to understand right and wrong, etc. Many of these can be changed or treated. I'm not saying that the US criminal justice system as it stands is well-equipped to do that, but I think it should be.

Welcome to the Cellar, Kintups.:D
You don't sound like a Sputnik, they just went beep, beep, beep.

So can an adult.

If I understand the difference correctly, I believe it is that the juvenile brain and nervous system is not fully developed, things such as impulse control mechanisms. Is that accurate or did I hear that on a televised crime drama? (Which is, incidentally, where criminals often get their stupid ideas.)

I agree with this almost 100% but the problem is that prisons and juevy do nothing to change a person but just reject them from society which usually makes the problem worse.

Yeah, that is the problem. My husband used to work in a jail, so I have a particularly grim view of how incarceration works in the US. Unfortunately, to my mind a lot of the problems come from the ingrained idea that bad things should happen to bad people -- unfortunately, having bad things happen to you frequently makes you an even worse person.

.................................what?!?
:yelsick:

But now that jails are being farmed out to the lowest bidder, things will be much better. [/sarcasm]

A lot of people feel better with the idea that people they don't like are being punished with a very unpleasant life. However, a certain level of unpleasantness goes beyond "teaching a lesson" and can lead to increased personality problems.

Look at it this way: if a kid steals from the cookie jar and his parents make him sit in the corner, he might think "ok, I guess stealing from the cookie jar isn't worth it." If he does the same thing and his parents beat him black and blue, he's more likely to come away with some disturbed ideas about the world. The same is true, to a lesser extent, about adults -- a guy who goes to prison for selling a bit of pot is going to be "punished" in a way that is liable to turn him into a much more dangerous criminal.

This keeps popping up every time we get into a crime and punishment discussion. The drug users that deal a little to support their habit, enable them to buy wholesale, or help out their friends. They clog the courts and the jails... they also complicate the decision of what's fair and practical.

wow.

nice edit.

Hime, I see a lot of what you are saying, but a couple points:

Stealing from a cookie jar, or smoking pot, are worlds apart in terms of criminality from brutal rape, attacking with chemicals, and forcing incest.

The incidents that occurred may or may not be a result of "bad parenting" (which itself even sounds too nice a term) but the offenses are atrocities.

Also, I would like to point out that the original question was "should these kiddies be tried as adults?" Though I think yes, and others think no...the actual punishment is not the debate. I've never been in a juvy or adult prison (except when I visited Paris) so I don't know how much difference, if any, there might be in rehabilitative actions between the two.

Also, does anyone know: if a juvy is tried as an adult, and convicted, do they serve their time in juvy or adult?

I would also like to say that this is the most conservative I have ever been. I'm very liberal, don't believe in CP (for many reasons, not just moral) but what happened in this crime goes way beyond a couple kids out for some kicks, and even my liberal heart finds it very difficult to wonder nature vs nurture, or if the poor kids just need some lovin' and understanding.

Just mho.

Oh, and amen Bruce for post 136. Very true.

3 teens indicted in gang rape, could face life prison terms
Avion Lawson, 13, Nathan Walker, 16, and Jakaris Taylor, 15, were indicted on charges that included masked, armed sexual battery by multiple perpetrators - eight counts - burglary with assault or battery, and kidnapping. Each of the eight sexual battery counts carries a life sentence. Four of the other 14 counts are first-degree felonies; the remaining two are felonies in the second and third degrees.

The defendants now will probably be booked into the county jail on Gun Club Road, the same as adults charged with crimes.

"That would be normal procedure. If they are charged as adults, they would be transferred to the main detention facility," said Paul Miller, a sheriff's office spokesman.

At the jail, they will be housed on the 12th-floor juvenile center, Miller said.

"There are always about 40 to 50 of them," he said. "They're kept away from adult prisoners."

If the three are convicted, they will likely be incarcerated at Indian River Correctional Institution in Vero Beach, where there is a "young adult offender" wing, said Florida Department of Corrections spokeswoman Gretl Plessinger. That's where Nathaniel Brazill, convicted of shooting and killing Lake Worth Middle School teacher Barry Grunow, initially was sent.

When they turn 18, young felons are transferred to other prisons to serve out their sentences, Plessinger said.

Oh, yeah, never mind the question. ;) :blush:

Prisoners to teens: "That's not a rape...

http://videodetective.com/photos/518/021785_24.jpg

Just found that address kind of ironic.

even funnier is that there's a Donald Trump golf course on that same road - the connies can look out their cell windows and watch the old farts playing golf.

I think it should come up often. It is bottle-necking the whole system, and in effect, robbing your average Joe Shmo of due process.

What about Mr. No Insurance- is it really imperative that we stir him in the same pot with the murderers and rapists? Yeah, lots of little clogs, like repeat traffic violations. My friend's son got caught on a warrant and put in the can for a jay-walking ticket......
What about the uuuummm......unsolved recent murders that happened in the area at that time? Dunno
Duh.
The mass of jay-walking infractions and parking tickets must have been too overwhelming.

What about the people sentenced to life - those that have no chance of ever getting out - are they clogging the sytem too? Are they a drain on society? Are they the ones we should deal with to make room for those who should do time and may be deterred from repeating the same offenses against society? Are there enough of them to make a difference?

They're the ones we should be making room for.

Again, prison is not reformatory. Petit crimes punished with long sentences produce better criminals. I don't see the need to put the 18-year-old with a quarter of the icky sticky and a pipe in jail no matter how many times he gets caught.

People sentenced to life would be a drain on society when they are free to roam the streets and continue to carry out their acts of violence. I will gladly fork over my tax dollars to keep those sociopaths out of my life.


Another issue I wanted to address with this thread (but no one's really perked up about it thus far), is what you all think about the neighbors who HAD to have heard the attack, failed to call authorities before OR after the attack, and even though the victims laid on their bathroom floor for several hours before walking to the hospital, did not come over and offer any kind of assistance, like, say, oh, I don't know, a fucking ride to the hospital.

Other than perhaps a moral responsibility to your fellow human, what responsibility to you feel, if any, these people should have towards their neighbors?

I don't really see why a child stealing should be thought of as acting as a child, while a child doing something like this should be thought of as acting as an adult. While someone who takes something so they don't have to pay for it is acting on a rational, selfish impulse, someone who engages in this kind of behavior is showing a profound lack of empathy, or inability to distinguish reality from fantasy, or simply inability to think for himself and disobey whatever "leader" he is following. We like to think of "the children" as sweet and innocent, but the qualities I listed above are all distinctly childish ones.

The more I think about it, the more strongly I believe that this is a case of two or three mentally ill, disturbed "ringleaders" and seven or eight younger kids with no real role models or authority figures who got attached to this gang as a way of coping with life in a very dangerous neighborhood. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the kids who've been arrested so far are the followers, and the leaders are actually 18 or older -- the better to manipulate kids into doing something like this. :mad:

That has a horribly ring of truth to it Hime.

I reread my post and don't know if what I meant came through. I was questioning if we should remove the terminal criminals from the system making room in the prisons. Thus creating a situation where the prisons aren't overcrowded with scum that are never getting out. These people only create an environment that perpetuates crime - they, for all intents and purposes, run these places. Without them would our systems be better suited to rehabilitation, education and/or retraining - whatever positives we can.

Just thinkin and wonderin.

I think there is a lot of room for improving the system.

I would like to see violent criminals and lifers housed in different facilities from all other criminals.

I'd like to see the guards put an end to the widespread rape and other assaults that occur in prisons. They currently look the other way, and nobody cares. This makes prisoners full of hate and violence when they get out and rejoin the rest of us in society.

I'd like to see some sort of program that would identify prisoners who can be rehabilitated, and work hard on rehabilitating them. It should be the top priority of the system for this group.

I'd like violent prisoners to be held in prison until they can pass some sort of evaluation that shows they are not a risk to society, even if that means holding on to them for longer than their sentences. The number one reason for prison is to protect society.

At the same time, I'd like people who are not a danger to society to be put in some sort of minimum security rehabilitation program, and I'd like their sentences to be short.

I'd like mentally ill prisoners to be put in high security mental hospitals and held there until the doctors think they are not a danger.

And finally, if you are going to differentiate between kids and adults, you should always differentiate between them, regardless of the crime. The law should be applied equally and consistently to all.

I agree with almost all of this. One of the things that most disgusts me about my country is the majority's total apathy towards the living conditions of prisoners. Prison rape is not funny, people.

I agree too. Well said! But I must say that somehow, not specifically in this instance, that the punishment should fit the crime.

I agree too.

It's just hard for me to come to terms with those atrocities coming out of the minds of such young people, and I have a hard time differentiating between someone who could do such things at 15, or at 18, or at 35.

Our criminal system is horrible; I know I have no solutions. So many people who get out want to get back in, it's the only life they know.

Maybe the Philippinos have it right????

I'd agree with this too, but I'd wager that everyone has their own idea of what a fitting punishment is. Just read through this thread.

yeah I know Glatt - but again not on this specific case, but in general, there are crimes committed by "kids" that deserve far longer sentences than the year and a half or two that they get because the system says so. Things need to be more flexible and allow those who deal with this stuff all the time the ability to determine what is "fitting."

I never said what I thought the punishment should be in this case. I did say to try them as adults, because of my feeling I outlined in post 154 (sounds like an American Legion baseball team.)

Lord knows what the punishment should be. I'm sure we run the spectrum on what is appropriate, as you said.

I absolutely agree with that. I hate the idea of legislators telling judges what they have to do in certain situations and not letting them look at the particulars for each case.

Lovely idea, but look at everything else the government does.... the people put in charge.... political pressures.
Flexibility spawns abuses that spawn inflexible rules.
Shit like that promotes systems that are worse than the problems they are trying to solve.
Pardon my cynicism.

I'm thinking of something more along the lines of our public school system, but with high security. I have no idea how to identify those who can be rehabilitated. It's not my area of expertise.

Yeah, I know... that's the problem, who does? I don't trust assholes like Dr Phil, and I'm afraid Dr Wolf would execute everyone.
This has been a conundrum since 1787 when Dr. Rush founded the Philadelphia Society for Alleviating the Miseries of Public Prisons.

only vengeance could wash away the humiliation he and she have suffered. :mad2:

I say love your enemies.

But don't let your enemies love you.

Cause Filipinos just want to dance!

4th teen charged in attack at Dunbar

Another one bights the dust!! Hoooo-waaaa!

I read this as the "several outstanding felony warrants" aren't related to the drugs when they busted him either.
So when this horrendous crime took place, at least one of the playas shouldn't have even been on the street.

?? What are you talking about??

The charges came eight days after Poindexter was taken into custody by the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office Tactical Unit for several outstanding felony warrants not related to the Dunbar case.

Bruce:


Charges:

Booking Date: 04/04/2007
843.15-3163 FAILURE TO APPEAR-FOR MISDEMEANOR OFFENSE; ARR ON 9/13/06

• 1. NO/IMPROPER DL/EXP MORE THAN 4 MOS
• 2. RAN STOP SIGN

Booking Date: 08/08/2007

812.014-4088 LARC-THEFT IS 300 OR MORE BUT LESS THAN 5000 DOLS - GRAND THEFT (FIREARM)/ BOND: 10,000
812.014-4088 LARC-THEFT IS 300 OR MORE BUT LESS THAN 5000 DOLS - GRAND THEFT (FIREARM)/ BOND: 10,000

843.15-3163 FAILURE TO APPEAR-FOR MISDEMEANOR OFFENSE; FTA-ARR: CT1) NO/IMPROPER D/L EXP MORE THAN 4 MOS (ALIAS)

843.15-3163 FAILURE TO APPEAR-FOR MISDEMEANOR OFFENSE; FTA-ARR: CT1) NO DL-NEVER HAD ONE ISSUED/ JUDGE PEREZ

843.02-3143 RESIST OFFICER-OBSTRUCT WO VIOLENCE

893.13-3448 MARIJUANA-POSSESS-WITH INTENT TO SELL MFG OR DELIVER SCHEDULE I
893.13-3696 MARIJUANA-POSSESS-NOT MORE THAN 20 GRAMS


The below charges are all from the assault/rape:

810.02-2762 BURGL-WITH ASSAULT OR BATTERY
787.01-2598 KIDNAP-
787.02-2605 KIDNAP-FALSE IMPRISONMENT-CHILD UNDER 13 YEARS OF AGE
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
800.04-4008 SEX OFFENSE-PROMOTE SEXUAL ACTIVITY OF VIC LESS THAN16 YOA
812.014-2792 VEH THEFT-GRAND 3RD DEGREE
810.061-5539 BURGL-IMPAIR DWELLING PHONE POWER FURTHER BURGLARY


And I would LOVE to see the juvy record on this piece of shit. I guarantee you it's more of the same.

So they were not picking him up on several outstanding felony warrants?

I do believe grand theft and resisting are felonies

The resisting was when they picked him up and he had posted bond in the two Grand Theft cases. Maybe the failure to appear for the misdemeanor cancels the bonds on the felonies? Or the reporter got the facts mixed up.

i think you may be right on with that.

Untold details of horror unfold in new report on Dunbar attack

I do not agree with that............... The crime they commited was in no way juvenile and they were clearly mentally developed enough to pour ammonia over the victim in an attempt to cover their tracks............. Clearly some thought went into this crime

Hi and thanks Rennison.....but I think this has been covered in this thread about 15 times.

Welcome to the Cellar rennison.:D

Yes, some thought went into why they did some of the things they did. But I don't think that part was preplanned. I suspect the sick bastards were making it up as they went along.