*giggles hysterically*

oh, that WOULD be rich, wouldn't it???

I can't even begin to think about what I'd write.

Mail....and maybe money or a cake with a file in it. ;)

Update January 2006
 

I'm not sure what all I've updated in the last 18 months, so if some of this is repeat, I apologize in advance.

The Boy, at age 17, (April 2005 ish) finally discovered girls. Which was a good thing, I was getting worried. I knew that as soon as he found girls, he would start to change. I was hoping that change would be a good thing, that he would mature. I was really excited, since this is when, I felt, I would excel as a parent. I had told him of the mistakes I had made as a teenager, he was smart enough to understand what I went through, and he would come out of things on the "he did better than me because of my experiences".

Boy, what a bunch of crap that turned out to be.

So Miss Thang was in ROTC with him. I never had a problem with her, but as soon as they started dating, he turned into a belligerent, disrespectful asshole, for lack of a better description.

The highlights:
We didn't have a land line, only cell phones, and on Easter break that year, ran up my cell phone bill to $600 talking to her. When there was a computer RIGHT THERE for him to IM her on. For free.

My phones got turned off, so I made him get a job to pay for my cell phone bill. He worked at Sonic down the road and talked to Miss Thang on IM.

She is a "Wiccan" (more in the "Witchcraft is like Charmed" sense than in the sense of what Wicca actually is), and made him a necklace out of paperclips, which he wore, but didn't have the slightest idea what it represented.

The beginning of the end what when during teh summer between Junior and Senior year of high school, over IM while I'm at work, he tells me that he's been downloading pictures of demons and now they are moving. I became alarmed, and asked him to take off the necklace, since I don't know what she was putting into it, and felt that it MAY be drawing bad things to him. He outright refused, and I told him that if he could tell me what it was, what the symbol represented, he can wear it (after I had it for a few hours). He said he didn't care what it represented, because Miss Thang gave it to him, and he was NOT taking it off.

This was the point it became defiance. I told him I didn't want to take it from him, he can have it in his pocket if he wished, but I didn't want him to wear it until he knew what it represented. He was again defiant. I told him that I would not accept this from him, that I had made a reasonable request, and that if he did not comply, I considered it defiant and disrespectful. He said he didn't care. So I asked him if he realized that I will not tolerate him living in my home, eating my food, etc, if he is going to disrespect me. He said, fine, I'll leave. I said, fine, put your key on the counter and take all your shit with you, because you're not coming back.

When I got home, his key was on the counter, and I didn't like it, but I sighed and accepted it. (I found the back door that we never used was unlocked, he unlocked it and was hoping I wouldn't notice. Sneaky shit.)

Next day, I get a call from Miss Thang's parents. He's at their house. The father is on the phone with me, and basically says "do you know that since he's under 18 you're legally responsible for him?" I said, "Do you know that in this state, harboring a runaway is a felony?" Basically, he had told her parents about how much of an ogre I was, and how I was "so mean". At the end of the day, I allowed him to come back. I told my husband that he now had "free reign" to do as he pleased with The Boy, because I was done. He had broken my heart, and I didn't want anything to do with him. He was only coming back because I was legally responsible.

Husband put him on "lockdown", meaning, you stay in your room, no TV, no radio, no games, for a week. And Husband demanded The Boy apologize to me. For every day The Boy didn't apologize, Husband would add a week of lockdown.

At three weeks of lockdown, I tell Husband I don't want a forced apology. He relents, but the three weeks stayed in effect. Since one of MY conditions was that he no longer used my computer ever, I went in and basically formatted/reinstalled, to wipe all that demon crap off the machine.

My best friend and her husband were staying with us at the time, and the husband was at the house (We were at work), when The Boy came out of the room to eat lunch, and attempted to get on MY computer to "print some stuff" from Miss Thang. When he realized I had formatted, reinstalled, and everything from Miss Thang was gone, he went insane. He called me a bunch of names, but the highlight was Mother Fucking Bitch.

Oh, no you didn't.

Huband tells my friend, and my friend tells me.
I walk in the front door and tell my husband to come get me before I kill this child and proceed into his room. What followed I'm not proud of, but suffice to say I told him to say it to my face. He wouldn't, so I told him if he can say it behind my back, but can't say it to my face, he's a pussy. If he's going to talk like a man, he better be able to back it up like a man. My husband pulled me out of the room, and my final words were, "Don't go to sleep."

He ran away again, but I didn't know it until the next morning. This time I called the police and reported him as a runaway. I found out that he had left the house that night, and had walked/run about 40 miles throughout the night/part of the day to the town that Miss Thang was vacationing at. He called her Stepmom and she went and picked him up, and took him to her house (where he went before). And no one called me. She had to drive by my house twice to get him and bring him back, and it didn't occur to her to bring him by.

I find this out at 6pm, so instead of dealing with them, I just went to the police station, gave them the parents names and address, and a Sgt. went out there and picked him up, and brought him back to the police station. This accomplished two things. One, hopefully scared the parents that the police were showing up to get my kid, maybe they need to not let him in/see their daughter/whatever, and two, impress upon The Boy that I wasn't playing anymore.

In this state, if you runaway twice, you are considered an "Undisciplined Juvenile" and the state takes the child out of the home and into foster care until the child is 21 years old. Not 18. I knew that, and the Sgt. told The Boy that. Sgt asked me and Husband what was going on, I told him, and he told The Boy that it sounded like he needed to get his head together and hang in for 6 months, until he was 18. I took him back only because of the cops.

I had been emailing the ex (David, Piggy's father) about The Boy and I told the ex it was either he took him or foster care, because The Boy was not going to listen, and would most likely runaway again. David decided to take the boy in, and threw in some jabs about what a shitty parent I was since I obviously didn't have control over my own son. He had come back from Iraq the month before and taken Piggy back, and had Bryan (my autistic son) with him for a vacation. He was supposed to return Bryan on July 23, so I proposed that we meet in Atlanta on that day (halfway between us), and swap children, Bryan for The Boy. He agreed.

Then, 4 days from then, he emails me and tells me he's no longer willing to make the drive, and he'll return Bryan when it's "financially convenient". So if I wanted him to take The Boy, and I wanted Bryan back, I had to make the full 18 hour each way trip.

So I did.

continued in part 2....

part 2....

I had told The Boy that if he wanted a relationship with me, that he had to start from scratch. He said he would.

I didn't hear a word from him until right before Christmas, when he started making nice so I would let him come for Christmas break. Everyone knew it wasn't because he wanted to see me. He wanted to see Miss Thang, who he had kept a long distance relationship with. I don't think so. He turned 18 right after Christmas.

Most of 2006 came and went, and I saw him once for a few minutes when Dave would bring Piggy by for visitation. I'd get sporadic phone calls, Miss Thang broke up with me, I'm dating some new girl, graduating in December, going to cooking school, etc. OK, good for you, hope it all works out.

Dave goes to Afghanistan in June, leaving The Boy in the house. Alone. Mostly because I refuse to take him back. Not that Dave asked, just that he already knew I wouldn't. The Boy has a job at McDonalds, Dave sets up the electric bill and the rent and all on auto draft, so all The Boy has to buy is food. He works at McDonalds, for shits sake, and gets food 1/2 off. What a deal for an 18 year old.

In October, he calls me and tells me that some girl he's been seeing, we'll call her Sam, thinks she is pregnant. She JUST turned 17. *sigh* Well, has she taken a pregnancy test? No, she "feels" she is pregnant. OK, how far along could she be here? Well, we just had sex last week.

....

Um, did you use a condom? No. But you had sex for the first time last week? Yes. And she "feels" she is pregnant. Yes, her period is 2 days late.

....

Well, first of all, go take a pregnancy test, and find out for sure.
If she is pregnant, oh crap.
But if she isn't pregnant, and I suspect she isn't, then #1 she's administering "The Test" to you, basically, "what will he do if I tell him I'm pregnant?" to determine what kind of man you are and #2 for shit's sake, use a condom!!

Ok, we'll get a test. Ok. Two weeks later, I get a phone call, she's not pregnant, and we're getting married next year when she turns 18. Her parents are hillbillys, and Christians, and hick farmers, blah blah blah. I talk to her and she sounds about as smart as a rock. She promises to send pictures. I reiterate to The Boy to use condoms, the last thing you need is to knock this girl up.

You can see where this is going.

He quits his job at McDonald's because it is unsafe, but he friend's dad works at Applebees and can get him a job there.

In November, The Boy's high school calls Dave in Afghanistan and tells him that The Boy has made some threats in school (like "I'ma going to bring one of my Dad's guns to school and kill all you sons a bitches" type threats), and has been expelled.

Dave calls him best friend in New Mexico, and he comes to the house, finds out that The Boy has let 4 of his friends move in, and has been having sex with Sam on Dave's bed. Like we didn't know that was going to happen. So on orders from Dave, the friend throws all The Boy's crap on the lawn and changes the locks, takes the key from The Boy, and leaves.

Understand I am getting all this information through my Mother, who is the only person David will talk to. No one has called me and told me anything except her. David has called to speak to Piggy, but hasn't said a word about it. Still hasn't to this day.

At this point, this is all I know. I call my sister, and advise that if The Boy contacts her to let us (me and Mom) know, because as far as we know, the Boy is now homeless in the Winter. And so much for graduation in December.

I discuss the situation with my husband, and we decide we can't take him in, because of the extremely adverse reaction it would have on my autistic son. We've just got him to the point that he's getting better, he's learning, and through training, we have real hope that he'll be able to make it on his own by the time he's 25. We don't want to now bring The Boy's destructive behavior and compulsive lying back into our home to influence Bryan. The Boy is 18, going to be 19 next month (at the time), whereas Bryan is 13. We have to protect Bryan now. The Boy had his shot, he blew it.

My mother will also not take The Boy in, because of my nephew. He turned out ok, but there was a while there he was living with my mom, and he put her through some crap. So he ruined it for The Boy.

My Sister was never asked, but I doubt she would. I could prolly guilt her into it, since I took my nephew in at one point, but I wasn't going to do that. My opinion is that The Boy screwed up a good thing, and he needs to learn that choices have consequences. Obviously he hadn't learned it from me, maybe he would learn it from Dave.

A month passes, it's now a few weeks before Christmas. The Boy calls me out of the blue and leaves a voice mail. "I'm fine, staying with Sam's parents, you're going to be a grandma, give me a call."

Dave returns home from Afghanistan. He calls my mother and tells her that the police got a search warrant after The Boy made threats, and searched his home while he was away, and thank God he was so meticulous about putting his guns in a locked safe, or shit would have hit the fan. A black man in a very southern state with the arsenal he has would NOT look good.

So I call The Boy back, and Sam is, he says, in fact, pregnant, and is due in August. Her parents have kicked him out when Dave got home, thinking Dave would take him back in, but there is no way, Dave says, after what you've done. So The Boy goes back to the parents house. So I tell him get a job, so you can get the money to move out of there, etc.

A week later, he calls me again, Sam's exboyfriend, Josh, who is in the Army, and stationed in Germany, is on leave and visiting. She has broken up with The Boy and tells him she is going to take the baby to Germany in October, when she turns 18, and live with Josh.

So apparently the wedding is off.

The parents have not kicked him out, and at this point I'm pissed. We have no proof this baby is his, #1. #2, obviously she's mental and he's going to have to get his shit together. I make references to her being a ho and that "If these hicks" (as HE called them) "are going to kick you out, you need money to get a place." I told him if the baby isn't his, he needs to cut and run. As usual, he didn't listen.

He calls me back the next day, and is pissed that I called her a ho and her parents hicks, and proceeds to tell me that "the monster [i] married and divorced [David] told him to do the same thing [cut and run], so since [we] said the same thing, what does that make [me]?"

(In his warped butchering of the language, he was trying to call me a monster without calling me a monster. He learned what happens when he calls me names out right.)

Sam gets on the phone and wants to know where I get off calling her a ho, when I "abandoned [The Boy] thousands of miles away. What kind of mother are you?"

I try to explain first of all, that The Boy is no longer her boyfriend, so why the hell is she talking to me, and then try to explain that the place he is in now is the result of his choices, and that hey, if you're pregnant by your boyfriend, then leave him to screw your exboyfriend, IMO, you're a ho. I calls em like I sees em.

The phones broke up, and after 3 dropped calls during this conversation, I finally give up. He hasn't called since.

Then I get this email last week.

I didn't touch that at all, that's how he writes.

My reply:

part 3....

My reply:
Then I got this, the last one so far.

Well, The Boy knows how to push my buttons.
Now, you guys know what his father did, from the previous posts, and I never lied to the boy, ever.

I haven't replied to this email, because I don't even know where to start.

No, I haven't handled things as I would have liked to all the time, but still, ... just.... ugh.

So. Am I crazy? A bad mother? Completely wrong? How should I respond? Should I respond at all? Suggestions?

The Boy is working himself up into a fine froth by thinking you really intend to go to court and try to get custody of his child. If you don't (I assume Sam is lying 100% here) I would reply simply with that fact.

Ignore the rest of it for the time being, come back to it bit by bit when it is less raw. If you start answering hurtful things he has written as if they are reasonable statements/ questions the situation will be escalated even further.

There's no advice I can give. But I'm never complaining about my life ever again.

If I read this correctly, this whole thing started when you got freaked out that a Charmed-style "wiccan" was casting paperclip spells, and threw him out of the house for wearing a necklace?

I don't think you should be surprised if he finds it easy to believe that you may act irrationally.

No, I threw him out of the house because he was being openly defiant and disrespectful. He knew through many many times of me telling him before hand, "I will not tolerate disrespect or defiance in my home, from you or anyone else. If you want to live here, you live by my rules. Period." He understood that, and chose to directly defy me.

(I don't think I was being unreasonable by asking him to know what the symbol on the necklace meant before displaying it. It's like someone wearing a cross but not knowing what it stands for. I didn't hve a problem with him wearing it IF he understood what it meant.)

In the IM logs (which I still have), I tell him again, "Do you understand that you cannot live in my home if you are being defiant, and that this act of refusing to learn about the necklace or take it off is considered being defiant?" "yes"

I don't think that's me being irrational.

Being so freaked out about a necklace that you throw a child out of home is irrational.

I'm with Sunday Girl on this one. When a small fire flares up, stamp it out immediately. Don't throw gasoline on it. Your son was told a lie (I'm assuming it's a lie from the context) that you wanted to take his child away from him. You should tell him that it's a lie right away. If you don't, your silence makes him think it is true. If you had told him in the beginning that it was a lie, he wouldn't have responded with that hurtful e-mail. He still thinks you are planning on taking his child from him. Ignore the hurtful e-mail for now, and tell your son that he has been misinformed. You have no intention of taking his child.

It also might help if you referred to him as your "son," not "The Boy." Labels like that will build a bigger wall between the two of you.

Still, this might be a "pick your battles" thing.

As a learn-by-example behavior, note that "defiant" can parallel "abritrarily stubborn".

OC- good to hear from you, too bad it isn't under better circumstances...

You need to maintain your level of trust with him, by continuing to not lie to him.
#1, tell him that you do not plan to take the child away from him/them.
#2, when the child is born, a paternity test is needed before anyone should make any moves regarding the future of that child. When is it due?
#3 Your son right now seems to be willing to do what it takes to be a good parent. Let him know what that is going to entail. Reliable income, reliable housing etc. He needs to get his ducks in a row before his (potentially) child arrives. If he can prove he is prepared for fatherhood better than the mother is, it may help him should custody issues arise. <-- but that may be getting ahead of yourself.

My mother has advised him in a telephone conversation a few nights ago that I have no intention to take the child (I won't say his until I see DNA results, and I told him that.)

If he would have come at me with "Sam told me....." from the beginning, this would have been a very different email from my end. He's trying to be hurtful on purpose. I don't have to take this from anyone, let alone a child.

At this point, I'm so angry that I haven't responded. I know me. If I respond when I'm angry, it will not be coherent, it will be meant to hurt him back. He knows where my buttons are, but I also know where his are. And right now I want to hurt him back, so I'm just going to leave it alone for awhile; try to take the "high road".

He has been made aware that I don't want the child, and during the course of that conversation with my mother, he revealed that David took him back in three weeks ago.

Please also understand (I don't know if this was made clear earlier) the child is a pathological liar. If he told me the sky was blue I'd have to go check.

There is a very real possibility, and I mean this in all seriousness, that this girlfriend may not be pregnant at all, and he's trying to goad me. He feels like I abandoned him when I took him to David's, so he's going to "get back at me" the only way he knows how...by hurting me with his words. This hypothesis (or some form similar) has been proposed by my mother, my sister, my husband, and my best friend.

IF there is a child, and IF it turns out to be his, I've already given him the best advise I can: get a job now, get a place to live now, and position yourself into a position where you look like a more responsible person than this girl who lives with her "Pillar of the Community Christian" parents.

As if.

And as far as calling him my son rather than The Boy, well, I don't feel very maternal toward him right now. I know that I'm a very emotional person, but due to the circumstances with his early childhood (mentioned a few pages back), I never really bonded with him in the first place. Honestly, it wouldn't be hard for me to completely cut him out of my life at this point. I would be disappointed for awhile, but really, it may be for my greater mental health in the long run.

I don't know. Right now I'm just waiting to see what the next move is. I take all he says with a huge grain of salt. I guess we'll see how it pans out.

First off, for you newer Cellarites, OC has been around the block a time or two, and she knows from magick, and those who use it. *You* don't have to believe in it if those involved do. That said, if OC thought the necklace was having an adverse affect on The Boy (try to remember that he thought computer pictures were becoming living demons, apparently), then she, knowing what she knows and believing what she believes, was well within her rights as a custodial parent and mother to make The Boy remove said item.

When The Boy refused to do so, he was essentially throwing off the yoke of parental restraint. At this point, he has accepted responsbility for himself, and whatever comes afterward. Had he understood one single thing *about* Wicca, he would have known this first off, because self-responsibility and self-determination are basic, fundamental tenets of the path, well before you ever start mucking around with magick.

The Boy told her to go stuff herself, and in a couple of different, disrespectful ways. No apologies seem to be forthcoming, and his subsequent contacts seem designed to either provoke, defend or mine for information...none of it intended to reconcile between them. In the meantime, The Boy has continued to screw up his life, and he's managed to find a girl who is more than happy to help him maximize the drama in all of this, probably because it makes her that much more the center of *everyone's* attentions. You know the old saying, "Don't feed the troll"? HickHo is looking to be fed, folks.

OC - I know it hurts, I know you're going to be asking yourself if what you've done was right, and I know you feel like a shitty mother. Raising kids is easy; building grownups is not. The Boy is now in the process of becoming The Man. You've been down this path before in your own life, and The Boy is uninterested in what you learned through so much pain along the way. Therefore, let him learn his own lessons, take his own responsibility, and...if he survives the experience...be able to look back someday and realize that he could have saved a lot of trouble if he'd listened. Perhaps he will then be able to impart those lessons to his own progeny.

Hang in there.

Jackie is currently housing a girl whose parents threw her out for not accepting Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior.

Of course she was 18 and there were no necklaces involved.

You want to parent that way, don't come lookin' to me for advice. Jackie knows how I support the strong single moms with button-pushin' boys, but only the ones who take kids in, not the ones who throw 'em out as a parenting method.

Lemme see if I've got this right. This is the boy who you gave up for adoption and didn't see till he was 7 after his father murdered someone, dismembered the body and spread parts all over, right?
Then, after a whole bunch of bullshit between YOUR SON and you, he reached out in a time of need - as immature and insane seeming as it may have been and you are not responding because of a necklace his girlfriend gave him that he chose not to take off as a teenager (18 I think).

Just trying to get things straight here before I consider offering any input.

Essentially, yes.

No.

After a whole bunch of bullshit between us, when he did nothing but disrespect me and call me names in my own home while he was completely dependant upon me for his care, shelter and other, it became (since he was going to run away again) a choice of either watch him go into foster care (mandated by the state since he is by law considered an undisciplined juvenile) or send him to David's house.

David was kind enough and cares enough about him to take him into his home. When this happened, he not ONCE made an effort to "rebuild our relationship", apologize for ANYTHING he'd done, or even accept responsibility for ANY choices he made.

The incident of the necklace 18 months ago was simply the proverbial straw, when his passive-aggressive defiance that I had been dealing with for some time finally became open rebellion.

And I'm not responding because *I know* I'm too hurt and pissed off to do anything constructive right now. If I were to respond at this point, it would be a bad thing. I'm not ruling out responding later. Just that I don't think I should do it right now.

I appreciate that.

Justin chose not to do that either, but that's not why I kicked him out.

I really don't undertand why everyone is focused on the necklace and is completely ignoring everything else.

Parent what way, exactly? Demanding a minimum of respect? Not tolerating him cursing me out? Letting him go to Dave's as opposed to foster care?

I didn't throw him out as a parenting method, it was that or foster care. Living with the man he'd called dad for 12 years or going to the home of complete strangers until he was 21 years old (4 years at the time). Hmmmmm..

Because in your telling of the tale the paper-clip necklace plays a pivotal role in the story.

I can't speak for the others, but your reported behavior in relation to this particular incident paints you a tad, with all due respect, bat-shit insane.

If he was seeing things that weren't there (schizophrenia, or schizo-type personality disorder?), that seems like it might've been time to send him for some therapy.

Also, you seem to see things in a very black and white way. Instead of being tolerant it seems like your modus-operandi is to cut deep and hard.

The kid didn't reach out to mend your relationship (not that the burden should fall to hard on someone who is still very young and probably doesn't understand how deeply he may regret the past)? He sounds damaged enough to not know how.

(This is all based on the last couple of OC's posts. I really am not sure I want to post it, but here it goes despite the misgivings.)

You gave him a my-way-or-leave-the-house ultimatum over a necklace when he was 17.

When he chose to leave you took it as stupidly sneaky for him to provide his own way back in. (Not "a boy in trouble is still asking, in his own way, for my support")

You irrationally hated his girlfriend, disrespected her belief systems, and called her defiling names because of his changes in behavior.

You called him a pussy for not being directly confrontational with you. You called him worse when he *was* confrontational. And now you wonder why he's passive-aggressive?? That's a classic response to "You're gonna get it if you do -- and you're gonna get it worse if you don't." His only way to control the situation is to do withdraw.

And only until he learned what it meant and how it could be used, in an effort to teach him how to keep himself safe from the things he was *not* safe from. All he had to do was ask Miss Thang, and she would have told him her answer, and I probably would have accepted it enough to let him wear it, while giving him further education.

He straight up told me that he didn't care about Wicca, didn't want to hear about Christianity. I told him if he didn't care about Wicca, he needs to remove a Wiccan religious symbol from his neck. It's the equivalent of blaspheme. Why would you even want to wear it if you're not a believer in that religion?

Thank you for noticing that. It was a crucial thing for me that nobody else seems to recognize.

I do. And David telling me for years that I am isn't helping. One small triumph, my mother was talking to him a few weeks ago and said something along the lines of, "Now do you see why she sent him to you?" and he said, "yes, now I understand." this man, who has propped himself up on being the more mature one, more responsible one, better caretaker, better parent, was not able to do better than I did. It may seem like a petty thing, but it was a vindication for me.

If you only knew how I agonized over what to tell him when, how to tell him, what effect it would have on him. It's not an easy thing to tell your son his father is a murderer and is never getting out of prison. It's worse when you have to tell him that he killed the man I was going to marry. Even worse, how he did it. And that he isn't sorry. And doesn't even want to see his son. Ever.

It's so hard. It's hard because it's obvious that he isn't learning from anything I told him. Oh, he took it in, then discarded it.

I suppose there are very few of us that actually listened to our parents and didn't think our way was better, easier, faster. It's just that he's doing it on such a monumental scale.

And that's why I'm having a hard time giving him advice yet again. I *know* he's not going to do what I tell him he needs to do, because I already have, and he hasn't done it. His grandmother has told him to do the same thing, he hasn't done it. Dave tells him the same thing, and he hasn't done it.

He told me he wanted me to be happy for him.

I've always been honest with him. I asked him what part I was supposed to be happy about. the fact he was there at all and not living with me? Can't be happy about that. The fact that he had sex with this girl unmarried? I can't be happy about that. The fact that he let his mouth ramble at school so he got expelled and now has a much harder road to pave? Can't be happy about that. The fact that after the initial scare and all my warnings, his grandmother's warnings, and basic common freaking sense, he has unprotected sex with this 16 year old girl when he's 18? Can't be happy about ANY of that. The fact that she got pregnant? Are you kidding me? The fact that she's now broken up with him and going to take (what could be) his child to Germany with her ex boyfriend?

Now I find out she's doing drugs while pregnant with (what could be) his child?

What part of this is supposed to make me happy? What part of that can I, as a parent, be happy about?

Every parent makes mistakes. I've certainly made my fair share, not just as a parent, but in life. But I have ALWAYS paid for them. He doesn't even want to accept the responsibility for even the reasons he went to Dave's.

It's not like I had alot of rules, people. Clean your room, go to school, do your homework, clean up after yourself, do your own laundry. Whenever he went out, he took the phone so if he needed a ride home, he could call me. One of his friend's dads owned a beer bar downtown, and his friend was the DJ. I let him hang out with his friend (behind the DJ cage) until 3am, when his friend would bring him home. I let him see Miss Thang whenever he wanted, as long as his chores were done and he was keeping up on his job and school. He got to keep his WHOLE paycheck (after paying me back for the phone bill he ran up.) She would come over on the weekends, and he would cook for us, since he loves cooking. He was in ROTC and went to camps and events out of state. It's not like I was this huge ogre.

Until he got disrespectful. Ditching school. Telling me he's going to work and turns out he was at Miss Things house. Lying about where he was going, coming back late. Picking on his little brother (the autistic one) and I don't mean like how brothers pick on brothers, I mean he would have bruises.

Let me give you another example. By this time, I was logging his MSN. I didn't read them until I had a reason, but I wanted to have them just in case I did have a reason. When he lied about going to work when he was actually at Miss Thangs house, I finally started reading them. He told her, "Yeah, I told my mom to kiss my white ass when she told me I couldn't come see you because it was a school night. She cried and stuff and I just walked out. Like she's going to do anything to me." (that's a paraphrase)

Now, I understand the boy is going to try to make himself look big and bad to his girlfriend, but this was, in my mind, completely over the top. I didn't say anything to him, because I didn't want him to know I was logging, or that I had read it. It was shortly after this that the necklace thing happened.

I'm rambling. I don't even remember what the point I was trying to make is anymore. I suppose I need to be ready for the people that think I'm some monster for the way I reacted. But really, read the WHOLE thread first, then try to put yourself into my shoes before you comment.

[cuddle] Thanks, Patrick. I've missed you and Bruce the most while I was gone. I hope things are going well for you and Mrs. 'Spode and your family. Bryan is really gaining progress, and we have him in regular classes now. The doctors are testing him in February to see if they want to upgrade him from Autistic to formally calling him an Asperger's. (We knew for years he was displaying Asperger's symptoms, but they're going to see if they want to change his "label".) Keep your fingers crossed for us. :)

No. I gave him a my way or the highway over him being openly disrespectful and defiant of me, my rules, in MY home.

No, he did it strictly so that he could come back while I was at work at get the rest of his stuff that he didn't take when he left the first time. He told my husband as much when he DID come back the first time.

I never hated her. I hated how my son behaved when he was with her. (I'm assuming you mean the one here, not the pregnant one down there.) I never disrespected her belief systems. I used to be a high priestess in her belief system. In fact, she once asked me to teach her about her belief system. I told her I no longer practiced, and why, and she was fine with that.

I'm not proud of how I handled that. I lost my cool and yes, I overreacted. I was stressed out from all of the stuff that had happened, and all of this going on while I've got my other kids to worry about, my friend and her husband and newborn baby staying with us, shit going down at work, and basically life in general. It's not like all these events happened in a vaccuum. I told you all that in an effort to be as fair and balanced in my posts as I can. I don't "wonder why he's passive aggressive". He's got way more reasons to be passive-aggressive than me calling him a pussy when he won't back up his mouth.

As I said, everything was fine until he started dating Miss Thang and the dick took over day to day functions. I don't like the dick, and after REPEATED requests for him to fall in line, and HOURS of talking and trying to reason with him, he did it anyway. I had lost positive control and it was literally a matter of foster care or Dave's house.

Which would you have had me do?

It's pivotal in the sense that it was an open, in your face rebellion on his part. A rebellion he knew the consequences of before he started down that road. He made the choice to defy me, knowing what my reaction would be. It was this decision that set him on this path.

I don't see it. I had told him and told him and he KNEW how I would react, he KNEW it meant he would have to leave. I told him that RIGHT before he made his decision! Am I supposed to then say, oh, well, I guess I shouldn't do what I've told you time and time I again I would do in this situation. I'm sorry, I would not, and IMO, should not have relented and accepted this openly hostile, disrespectful behavior.

If I tell you every day that if you press the blue button I will slap you, and one day you press the button, if I'm consistant, I need to slap you. What happens if I don't slap you? You can't trust my word, and then ANYTHING I've said up to that point, and anything after is nullified.

He pressed the button. I slapped him.

Two things here.... One, I had tried to send him for therapy twice before, for the whole back story purposes, and he lied so much to the therapists that they told me not to bother to waste my money, because he didn't want help and until he did there was nothing they could do.

Two, because of my prior beliefs, and the beliefs held by the person that made the necklace, I was pretty sure that a mental disorder was not the case here. Demons exist, whether you believe it or not. Been there, seen that, and know how to fix it. Can't fix it unless the person involved wants it fixed, too.

This is pretty accurate. I tend to see things in those terms. I do see in grey in things, but generally it's on a spectrum, and on one side of the middle line or the other. It's been a hard life, with hard experiences that not many people (God willing) will have to endure. (If you didn't read the whole thread, you're missing that part of the story.) Life is hard, and you get bitch slapped when you make the wrong decisions. I learned it early, and I tried, God knows I tried, to warn him. To tell him when I screwed up. To show him the potholes in an effort to get him to go around them. But he didn't believe me.

First, I don't consider 17.5 to be "very young". My duaghter is 9, she is very young. He was man enough to call me a mother fucking bitch in my house, he can be man enough to at least apologize. (Which to this day he's never done, even when my husband and mother told him it might help.) He's man enough to have a child and he's willing (see emails) to go toe to toe to keep it. But he's not man enough to send me an email to let me know how he's doing? I have a problem with your assertion.
It just occurred to me that I'm doing alot of defending myself. I asked for opinion, and I got it, and now I feel like I'm arguing. In the great big scheme of things I guess I was looking for more Els and less UT. My main worry here is that you don't understand everything that was going on. The necklace wasn't the ONLY thing, it was the LAST of a long line of things, and the FIRST time he was openly defiant.

I guess what I really wanted suggestion on was the email portion of the posts, not "Gee, you sure fucked up by letting it get to this point." I figured that part out for myself, my question is, knowing what you know, what course do I take now?

That's part of the insanity. You told him that if he wore a necklace his girlfriend made for him, you would kick him out of the house.

The part you don't want to hear might be important. Advice (that you've asked for!) is another thing that doesn't exist in a vacuum.

For starts Jackie's lad is 19 and has as many if not more issues as an ADHD sufferer with a dad who, unfortunately, survived and thrived to turn the kids against her systematically and provide no support. So I have seen it. I have seen the boy screaming at the top of his lungs that he hates her, in the back of my vehicle, and resisted the urge to stop the truck right there and then and toss him out in the middle of nowhere. Because even though he's 19, he's a boy, and he's confused. This is what ADHD boys with father issues are. (Plus, it's not my business)

Of course my best parenting decision ever was not to become one. So what do I know? Nothing. That said,

= I would stop putting control issues into "man/not-a-man/pussy" terms at all. You don't do the lad any favors by accidentally or on-purpose emasculating him in the middle of trying to figure it all out. And you're not a man, if I may be so bold, and so you really have no idea. So neither does he.

= You don't like each other. You press each other's buttons. When was that license for you to indignantly give up before the job of parenting was done? Wasn't it harder because he needed you more than you thought? Wasn't that need fulfilling to you in some way? Isn't that the root of what it is to be a parent?

= If you were given the terms of living with someone for free but under their bizarre and strict rules, including determining the nature and extent of your relationships... or just leaving for whichever way the four winds blew... wouldn't you pick the latter? Wouldn't the bright, adventurous, young person always take the latter? Wouldn't you think much less of a young person who chose the safe but rule-laden route?

The necklace isn't important in itself. It just happened to be subject at hand when the struggle, that had been going on since he met "Miss Thang", came to a head.

Sure, the boy has issues. It would be expected, considering his childhood, but his behavior since he hooked up with this girl is absolutely unacceptable. She seems to have bolstered his ego, his confidence that he could assert himself, which is really funny considering she played him like a violin.

Apparently he thought he could win her respect and adulation by playing the tough guy when in truth he was just talking shit and being more sneaky and dishonest than ever. I'm thinking of things you didn't cover in this "update", but posted elsewhere, that happened leading up to the necklace showdown.
That's why I say the necklace wasn't important, it could have happened over a pizza, it was just time.

I think you made a mistake not letting your husband share in handling the boy from the start. You could have at least played the good parent/bad parent double team routine, and when he was pushing hard, hand off and cool off. But that's water over the dam, now.

This business of "I'll answer your question when you answer my question" is a risky tact when you're toe to toe. It may be possible on IM, but I doubt it without the visual clues. By email, especially when access is limited (library), it just makes matters worse. It gives both parties too much time to supply their own imagined answers to their questions and imagine a whole worst case scenario conversation. So by the time they do get an answer, it either reinforces what they've already decided the answer is... or you're lying.
In emails, talk straight, be honest and to the point, because innuendo, inflection, hints, irony and subtlety don't work.

It's a shame it's come to this but you two have been making each other nuts for a very, very long time. I'd have killed the fucker years ago. The way it went down is soap opera bizarre, but your whole life has been that bizarre, so I'm not really surprised.

All in all its just another brick in the wall. :sniff:

I feel like this is a gross oversimplification. The issue, in the end, is not the necklace, it is the defiance of parental authority. The subject matter is largely irrelevant. If her son chose to tell her to stuff it, then he is, defacto, accepting the consequences of what comes after.

I've been down to this point countless times with my kids...I think something should be one way, and they want it another way, and so we arrive at the "Where you gonna live and whatcha gonna eat?" point. Move out, and do what you wish, and I'll wish you the best. Stay here, and I have the final say. This is non-neogtiable. If you don't have that line with your older children, you *will* get used, walked on, abused, swindled and generally compromised - not because your kids don't love you, but because they have not yet learned about give and take, mutual backscratching, and all the other social niceties that adults have experienced.

Kids are used to being supported, cared for, taking a free ride. So, when they finally think they are old enough to do what they want, they tend to not remember that there's countless other responsibilities that go along with that freedom. All they know is what the child learned, and that doesn't include not having mommy or daddy fix their screwups, tend their booboos, give them allowance money.

It is a difficult transition for everyone involved. Could OC have handled things a little better? Sure. We all can. But her standing on principles of respect and obedience to a child living under her roof is not at all out of line.

So many adages might fit here, if I had an opinion, which I don't:

Apples don't fall far from trees

We reap what we sow

Having said that, I would never speak to my parents like that because I was raised not to speak to my parents like that. In return, my parents gave me discipline that was shielded in respect.

Just a small viewpoint in a huge issue.

= He has a lot of his bio-dad (I just can't call him a father, sorry) in him. Both genetically and mentally. What the hell happened to this poor kid during years 1 thru 7???? I hate to even try to imagine.

=And partially what his bio-dad sowed. This is not all your fault, but it is true that the first few years are, by far, the most important in childrearing. I think its safe to assume that your son got none of that for far too long. Perhaps the damage was already done, more like highly probable.

My mom would have bitch-slapped me across the room if I ever said anything even remotely close to what your son said to you. Although again imagine what his first seven years were like and how HE was treated. All the abuse he probably endured both mentally and physically - perhaps even sexually. I am not a doctor, but this outrageous behavior sounds an awful lot like it may have been caused from some sort of abuse.

I don't think you were inn a position to really "succeed" as a mother. but that said this kid has NO IDEA how to reach out to, love or trust you or anyone else for that matter. He probably related to "Miss Thang" because she was the closest thing to his bio-dad that he found. All he was (probably) taught at a very young age was hate, negativity and abuse.

Oh, and where was he prior to and during the whole murder thing? Any chance he knew this was happening or overheard his bio-dad
planning it or feels somehow responsible for his bio-dad killing the man you were to marry? Or responsible that his father killed him period? Ruining "everyone's" lives. Thats a hell of a burden to put on a kid.

Last thing a 17 1/2 yr old is a KID. I've got three of my own 18, 16, 14 and their ages have less to do with their maturity level than the sum of their life experiences.

Sorry so long - I just went off on you and I don't mean it to come across that way. :(
Compassionate hugs to you I'm really sorry for your troubles.

Stuff like this is why I am glad our kids are grown and gone , and I FEAR haveing grandkids .
I Have found that I am WAY less tollarant of small children , and bratty kids , I just want to SMACK them , but that just makes things worse ,
I had a nepheu liveing with us for a few months a few years ago , he is gone and NOT welcome in my house AGAIN !!! That kid would push every button he could just to do it then not understand when we got mad !! " Ughh dude why are you throwing that throwing star into the side of the garage ?? " " Uhh , what throwing star , thats not mine ( Carol took it out of his hand )" "Where did you get it " get what ? " the trhowing star that I just took out of your hand " Thats not mine " etc,,,,,,,,,,,,,
AHHHHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!!!

I know what you're talking about, Zip. I've never had a lot of tolerance for brats. Kids, through inexperience and lack of understanding are going to screw up. They all do, we all did. I can handle that, but deliberate, malicious, button pushing I can't tolerate.
I've been told, they have to do that to learn how far they can go, testing limits and learning consequences. Hey, I'll help them learn the consequences. What happens when they pull that shit in the real world.
I'm told it's different when they are your own spawn. I chose not to take that risk because the SPCA won't take 'em, ya know.
They claim it's all on the parents, the nurturing and affection. That doesn't explain why a couple will have several kids and one turns out to be a clinker, though. I've seen it several times, where one of the brood is a monster, among normal siblings. There has to be more to it than the nurturing.:confused:

Nature via Nurture

We've all got biological limitations but the way we are or are not nurtured alters our performance within those parameters.

The question to ask is why is the child pushing buttons? I'd argue that it is a form of communication developed because of limitations enforced by the childs biology and/or his environment. OC's looks like a perfect storm. The child is obviously limited in capacity but when he does ask a question clearly he gets pounded for it. When I was in high school one of my friends ran away from home. He landed at our house, because while my folks were tough, they were also predictable and fair. OC, as hard as it is to hear, you are running an unpredictable house where communication isn't taking place through normal channels. Please do not pursue the adoption of another child.

I am making the assumption here that at some point growing up you said something that was disrespectful to your parents, and they punished/disciplined you.

1) How did they do so, if you remember.
2) What would they have done if that hadn't corrected your behavior?
3) What would they have done if #2 didn't correct your behavior?
Repeat until your parents are at their wits end, and have run out of ideas.

We are all doing the best with what tools we have.

I understand that it doesn't always work. But, I was raised to respect them, and I felt bad if I disappointed them. Does this mean I was BORN with an innate goodness that just radiated forth, and my kind and loving parents simply shoo-shooed me and I meekly obeyed? Not by a long shot.

I find it funny that so many defend drama drama drama from one person who loves it, and bans others who are drama drama drama but for some reason everyone is like "awwwwwww, they can't help the way things are." Think marichiko.

Just sayin'

I don't buy it. It's like small dogs in tall grass jumping up to see what all the other dogs are doing, and following suit.

You missed my point.

1 How were you raised to be this way?? 2 You may have had more of a conscience (sp), so that a little discipline went a long way. What if you didn't feel bad dissapointing them?? Then what?

We tend to learn from what we are exposed to as children. I find myself treating my daughter the way I was treated as a child. I turned into my mom, if you will. Some things I am proud of, some not. I do this unconsciously.

My brother was raised in the same household, by the same parents. I have a master's degree and an excellent career. He dropped out of high school and has a criminal record.

I think a main difference between us is that I felt bad when I 'got in trouble'. He didn't care so much, and thus our different life paths. I didn't get more punishment, it just hurt me more. Thus, I tended to not do things that would get me into it (or got better at not getting caught, heh heh).

Am I better than him? No, I definately have faults. But I am a much more productive member of society.

being raised in the same house doesn't mean you were raised the same way. parents treat kids differently. it's just a hard goddamned fact of life.

LJ, for example, was an abused child. He was forced to watch reruns of Andy Griffith while his siblings were treated to more enlightening PBS fare. :D

It's true that kids are treated differently. Starting with just the blatantly obvious, our firstborn had our undivided attention for 3 years. Much of that was anxiety ridden and 1st time parent paranoia filled. Our second born didn't get the same amount of attention, and we have been much more laid back. The two have different personalities. Not sure if it's because they have been treated different or they are wired different or both. Our first born is a pleaser and our second born is a strong-headed rebel. Both are great.

yep. i'm a middle child. my sister is burdened with constantly feeling like she has to live up to expectations of others, resents it, rebels against it, etc. my brother who is 6 years younger, had an entirely different environment to deal with. my

Dude, that is awesome. Easily worth a thousand words, and precisely on topic. My feelings exactly.

That picture makes it abundantly clear that no amount of advice or wishful thinking is going to help the situation.

Maybe it's time to fire up the power-shovel and crane, and get to work?

When the time comes for the youngster to leave the nest, they go.

Conflict can arise from many sources, especially if one of the parties is not ready when it happens. The bigger the difference, the bigger the potential for conflict. On top of that, each side, the parent and the child can be internally conflicted too. "I want to go, I'm scared to go, I can't stand it here, I don't know how I'll handle it out there..." round and round and round.

Talk is all we got to smooth over these inevitable transitions. If the talk is harsh, the transition, already tense, becomes a conflict.

You can't keep them. They can't stay past some point. And the worst part is KNOWING there will be pain. There WILL be mistakes. As a parent, it takes unimaginable courage to deliberately send your precious child into harm's way, that big old mean old world. It may be some small comfort knowing that that course is at least safer than permitting them to stay home with the tigers.

But dammit, somebody's got to be the adult. The only question is, who's the best one for that job?

Kids learn what they see.

From reading this story, I see in OC's son, a child who has been rejected, abandoned, discarded, shuffled around, and generally taught that he is a burden, rather than a joy and a pleasure. He has most likely seen and been a target of abuse (the man raising him did not go from a responsible, kind, loving person to an axe murderer with no stops in between). My perception is that this child has been been taught to manipulate, disrespect, and to use hostility in an attempt to control his surroundings and those he is in contact with.

No where in this story do I see where this child was nurtured, taught to reason and discuss, given stability or a healthy role model to learn from. Does anyone love him? Respect him and his choices? Teach him to respect and love himself?

Calling his girlfriend Ms Thang is highly disrespectful and contemptous. Dismissing her due to her upbringing and background is pretty snotty and pretentious, given that none of us are perfect. OC has not done a very good job of making wise choices, so it doesn't seem to me that she has any room to condemn another person for theirs. Calling him Boy is depersonalizing and humiliating. He is not a piece of furniture to be dropped off at Uncle Jack's when your life has no room for him. Or discarded when you think he isn't filling YOUR needs adequately.

This kid didn't ask to be brought into the world. OC made that choice. Once she made that choice, she was responsible for him. OC could have chosen to give him up for adoption, ensuring a better chance at a healthy, functional life, but no...she chose to dump him at someone's house who had no ties to him...a person with no motivation to adequately care for him and raise him lovingly and responsibly.

I am simply amazed that he has turned out as well as he has. He must be one very tough cookie to have survived the life he has been subjected to (but did NOT deserve).

At 18, a young man probably doesn't know all the reasons he is attracted to the things he is. OC had the perfect opportunity to bond a little and have a reasonable discussion about the origins and meaning behind the necklace, but she chose instead to attempt to control her son's choices through verbal violence and manipulation. I am completely unsurprised at his response. If that incident is representative of the interaction between the two of them, both are probably better off without being in each others lives. I can only hope that the legacy that this child has been given does not get passed on to the next generation.

In case anyone is wondering where I am coming from with all this, I had a son out of wedlock, 18 years ago. His father never had anything to do with him, or me after conception. I knew that I was responsible for this human being and how his life turned out. I dropped out of college, worked two jobs for many years to support us, and gave up many personal desires and goals in order to be the very best mother that I could be. We've been through a lot together, he and I, but I'll tell you one thing...he has never doubted that I love him deeply and will always be there for him, no matter how much I disapprove of his choices. I have always treated him with dignity and respect and in return, he treats me the same. I've taken in teenagers whose families have thrown them out because they were 'uncontrollable'. Guess what? They don't need forceful control, they need respect and dignity. I give it to them and they respond in kind.

And if my son came home wearing a gf's Wiccan necklace, I would not force him to take it off, even if it meant nothing whatsoever to him. He is 18 and I would never dream of trying to control his personal choices to such a degree.

Violence breeds violence. Hostility breeds hostility. Disrespect breeds disrespect. This child learned all of that from his family of origin.

Stormie

"Be kind, for everyone you know is fighting a great/hard battle."
-- Philo of Alexandria

Point taken. There is, in fact, nothing about the positives in the child's upbringing contained in the OC's description of the crisis she's going through.

Tell me, the last time someone broke your heart and abused you badly, was your first response to talk about how well they were raised, or did you pour out your hurt and anger first?

Just because the girl didn't tell us the good stuff does *not* defacto mean there was none.

OC was not that fortunate. She had no choice, that she was aware of, at that time. She was completely manipulated and when she finally did make a choice, her choice was murdered. She's probably quite fortunate she was not..... he came close.

Since that time she's made plenty of bad choices. I've a hunch much of it was because she never learned how to make good choices.... too much living day to day with no discernible path to anything or anywhere. living like that tends to push you to people that are similar which is the last thing you need. It makes for a very deep rut where forward and back are the only options visible.

Put, being completely controlled and not developing decision skills, together and you get a person that is always looking for answers or rules to live by. Instructions, user's manual for life.
Many religions are more than happy to provide that. Politics is harder, you can't just find the "right party" and do what they tell you. No party is going to be able to do that without conflicting with something you believe, or believe in, along the way. No party is consistent enough to always follow a certain philosophy. Religions are better at it but still waver at times.

Stormie, you made the wrong choice which resulted in pregnancy and being on your own.
It would appear you made mostly the right choices after that.
How did you know how to make those choices?
How did you know what to do and how to treat the kid?
Reading books? Asking friends? Emulating your mother?
Probably mostly the latter, in that you just raised the kid the way you remembered being raised.


But what if you hadn't been raised that way? :smack:

Not to hijack or anything, just wanted to share something I've been thinking about recently.
As some of you may remember my uncle has fairly advanced Alzheimer's. I posted about this awhile ago asking for some advice. Since then, he has deteriorated significantly and only keeps sliding downhill. As some background information, he is 75 and born in Manchester, England. And long story short, he is the closest thing my mother ever had to a father. She lived with in San Diego, CA with him and her sister, whom he was married to until 2001 when she died of cancer. My uncle and my mom's sister never had children, so when my aunt died he was alone. At that time we had just moved to Ohio. My uncle then started to show signs of Alzheimer's a year or so after that and my mother was basically the one in place to take care of him (also helps that she is an RN). She has been doing so since, making more and more frequent flights out there to take care of him and his needs as he declines even more. This brings us to the present.

My uncle got to the point this past fall where he could just not live on his own anymore. We had caretakers staying with him 24/7, and at overlapping hours during the day, but he realized in a moment of clarity that he does much better with everyday life when my mom is around. Thus, we had a family meeting and decided that my uncle would come live with us in Ohio. He is at this moment sleeping in my older brother's room and his cat is quarantined in the basement so that it doesn't get torn to shreds by our two older male cats. For those of you that have little knowledge about Alzheimer's, my uncle is basically like a 3 year old mentally. Physically, he is in amazing shape for his age. But he can't do things like realize when he needs to have a bowel movement, comprehend changing tv channels, know how to get in a car, forgets that his dinner plate full of food is in front of him, forgets where he is even while sitting in the same room for an hour, and he hallucinates things like these little snowmen we have around the house he sees as actual people, same with his reflection. He thinks his reflection in any bathroom mirror is this same guy who lives and works on the bathroom. So far he has been able to remember everyone in the family, but it is only a matter of time before that too fades away.

The "seriousness that changed me" in all of this is how I am not super close with my uncle. We have had the usual holiday and summer gatherings of family and meetings when we would fly out from TN or Ohio, phones calls and the like too. But I never really got to know him. And now that he has become a huge part of me and my family's life, I have heard about his background and history a bit from my mother. I never knew before that this giant painting of a ship hanging in his house is actually a painting of the ship that he and his older brother came over to the US in during WW2. It was a ship full of children that were escaping the bombings of England's major cities. I also never knew he was in the US air force and was stationed at an early warning radar station in Alaska during the Cold War. This man has so much history and so many experiences in his mind that he just cannot share anymore, and now I am too late to ever get to hear it.

Where I am going with this is that for as long as I can remember I have enjoyed being by myself more than being with others. I loved just sitting outside reading a book and and having maybe 3 or 4 close friends and thats it. Now, I have realized the importance of developing relationships with people, because you never know what you may be missing out on. The person sitting next to you may know something that can change your life, but you will never know until you initiate a relationship with them.

Oh noooo...my upbringing was horrific and I have made some terrible choices in my life. I do not condemn anyone for making mistakes, but I do believe you have to take responsibility for them. In particular, children are innocents and I feel strongly that a parent who keeps screwing up cannot turn around and blame the child for the way they turn out. Do as I say and not as I do doesn't cut it for kids.

I was a result of an affair by my bio mother and given up for adoption. My adoptive parents beat me and my adoptive father sexually molested me. My father also beat my mother and nearly killed her once. They divorced when I was 12. When I was 16, my mother traded me to my father for a Honda Civic.

I married the first man who asked and true to form (violence breeds violence), he beat me also. Broke my nose, dislocated my jaw, strangled me and kept me prisoner for several years in a foreign country. After I escaped that mess, I started college and was trying to get my life straight, when along came my son. I made the choice to bring him into the world...he had no say in the matter. I could have gotten an abortion or given him up, but I decided to keep him and raise him myself.

8 years later, I got married again. I was thinking that a male role model, a two-parent household, and a real house with a picket fence would be great for my son. Except I picked another abuser (that's all I knew). So 8 years later, after subjecting my son to an abusive step-father and a violent household, I divorced him also. Very bad choices I made..1-by not recognizing the abuser red flags and 2-by staying for much too long. During the marriage we had a daughter together. Near the end of the marriage, I was drinking heavily to numb out. By the time I left, my son was suicidal and that is what finally lit a fire under my ass. I brought him into this world and it was my responsiblity to provide stability and love. That was 7 years ago.

I got myself into counseling to figure out WHY I was making lousy choices. I quit drinking. I didn't date until I was sure I knew how to spot emotionally healthy individuals (it took 2 years of hard work on myself to get to that point). My 11 yr old daughter still has to deal with her abusive father via visitation and she is not turning out well. She is defiant, difficult, rude, and downright disobediant. Is that her fault? No...it is mine (and her father's). But I will not turn my back on her. I will keep trying to be a positive role model and I will always make sure she knows I love her (if not her behavior). I don't bully, manipulate, threaten or disrespect her because those are behaviors I will not tolerate personally, so what gives me the right to treat HER in a way that I will not accept?

I understand that OC has had a hard life and some devastating losses. My high school sweetheart was stabbed to death in our homeroom. I've been down her road. What I am attempting to address is that is isn't really fair to blame the child for how he turned out when he learned how to behave from the people in his life. There may be missing pieces to this story but I'm going by what has been written here.

I don't blame other people for my bad choices, I made them and I have to live with the consequences...as do my children. The best I can do is try not to repeat them and teach my children how to make better decisions. And love them...consistantly.

Stormie

Absolutely Bullitt. Also never judge a book by it's cover because inside might be the most amazing story you've ever discovered.

Or a bunch of pages with words on them.

(sorry)

..... I don't even know how to respond to that.....

First, let me state that I didn't have him for the first 7 years. I got pregnant, was forced to get married, and *I* knew I couldn't (1) cope and (2) afford to raise a child. He was given to my husband's family, in my attempt to give him a better life, and *not* pay for my mistakes.

When the indictments were made, they said I could come get him or he would go into foster care. By this time, I was married to a capable, stable, responsible man. I was fully intending on being married to this man forever. This man, who had never seen this child, came home early from TDY in Turkey, got a loan, and took me and my other son (the autistic one) who was 15 months old back to the US (we were living in England at the time) and hired an attorney to get this boy back.

Those seven years, he did not live with his bio-unit. He thought his bio-unit was his cousin, and that his great aunt and uncle were his parents. He didn't know who I was until the police brought him to me.

As it turned out, the people I trusted to raise this little boy were not a good choice. They had issues and were involved in a murder. Had I known this, OBVIOUSLY I would have taken steps to get him legally adopted via an agency or something, then this whole mess would never have happened.

From day one, he was treated with respect and love, and was loved and nurtured JUST AS MUCH as Bryan was. I told him that day (I'll never forget it) that I would never lie to him, but there would be times when I would feel like he wasn't ready for information, so I would tell him, "I'm not going to answer that". I stayed true to my word.

We had a GREAT relationship, an open relationship, to the point he was comfortable talking to me about sex and drugs. He had never been disrepectful (other than occasionally going over the top trying to be funny, but I chalked that up to him discovering and refining his sense of humor). I was NOT prepared for what happened. And it was so freakin fast....

I don't think so. This is how people talk where I live (where he lived). And I didn't want to use her real name, since this is a public forum.

I think you're confusing Miss Thang (giver of the necklace) and Sam (the one that's pregnant). Two different girlfriends.

Miss Thang I liked. She seemed to have her head screwed on pretty straight for the most part, had a plan, and was intent on sticking to it.

Sam I don't care for. I've spoken to her on the phone twice, and both times she's come off as dumb as a brick. Her decisions have been as dumb or dumber than my more stupid ones. *HE* is the one that called her parents hicks, I merely parroted that back to him. I also mentioned that these "hicks" were kind enough to give him a home and feed him when they didn't have to. That bit never made it through.

I have made some pretty stupid decisions, that's true. And I've paid dearly, and accepted responsibility for those decisions.

Well, first, condemnation is defined as:to express an unfavorable or adverse judgment on; indicate strong disapproval of.

And as he is my son, I have absolute room to condemn him. If we're talking about Joey down the road, you're right, I don't.

And SINCE I made those mistakes, and since he KNEW about those mistakes and SAW firsthand consequences of them, I thought he would know better than to put himself in a similar position. (meaning the whole pregnancy thing.)

I think one of the main problems here is that many of you are talking about why he went to Dave's in the first place, and I'm more concerned with what happened once he got there.

If I considered him as valuable as a piece of furniture, I wouldn't worry about him, or have posted any of this at all. Why would you even make that analogy??

It's not, nor has it EVER been about him fulfilling MY needs. Please quote where I said that "he didn't fulfill my needs as a mother, so I took him to David's house."

This is just plain wrong. It's obvious you haven't read the whole thread. Why are you making judgements against me?

Tough, yes. He's had a hard road to hoe. He's a survivor, like I am. Probably the only thing he's running on right now.

Man. You really have no idea what you're talking about.

It will. The curse works.

Goody?

Well my son was 17, and I was well within my rights as (1) his mother and (2) the person paying his rent/utilities/food/clothing/healcthcare/ROTC trips/uniforms/school functions/phone bills/internet bills/etc to make a REASONABLE REQUEST and expect it to be (1) immediately complied with, and if he doesn't like it, (2) have a discussion about it AFTER he complied with it.

That's how I was raised, and it's how I've raised all three of my children.

How....cliche of you to say so. Unfortunately, as a few people have already stated, not all children raised in the same perfect household turn out bright and shiny members of society. So you ASSUME that it's my bad parenting that's caused all of this "poor boy's" problems. Nice. Are you always this judgemental and clueless or only when posting on forums?

The infamous necklace conversation
 

Here is the discussion on IM about the necklace. Edited for names, text color changed for emphasis.

Now, at the same time, the following conversation was happening in his other IM window with Miss Thang:

As I said, all I wanted him to do was take it off UNTIL he could tell me what it meant. His girlfriend was FEEDING him the information, in pretty simplied terms. All he had to do was so, ok Mom, I'll take it off and when I tell you what it means, can I put it back on? Yes. Problem solved.

Again, this was the last straw in a very long list of smaller defiances that I had warned him about but didn't take (what I consider) action on. I told him time and time again, and I'm not the only one, mind you. My best friend (who the kids consdered an aunt) and my husband and my mother ALL tried to tell him before it got to this point, Dude, just hang in 6 more months.

Hopefully now we can stop focusing on the necklace and actually get to the main reason I wrote all this stuff in the first place.... what now?

He is aware I'm not after his kid. He's also aware that he's deeply hurt me with the emails he sent. He's also never apologized for any of his actions, and still insists on foisting all of the responsibility for his decisions (not only the ones forcing him to move to Dave's but also the ones since he's been down there and I've had absolutely nothing to do with) off on me.

i only have one question......why aren't you posting in indigo?

If we do talk about it, is it an act of defiance?

I know you pushed each others' buttons, but it seems like your button was big and red and ten feet tall in the living room.

Give a teenage boy a wall with a sign that says "wet paint" and 99 times out of 100 he will touch it.

Give a teenage boy an ultimatum, and 9 times out of 10 he will violate it.

and the other time he'll pee on it.





sorry, as you were......

What do you do from here?

Wipe the slate clean. Demonstrate forgiveness and love. Explain, don't argue. Help him protect and keep his child. Seems to me that all you have to lose is pride.