EXACTLY!!!

But, if they want an apology -

A Letter of Apology from Crimson Ghost, US Marine Corps, Retired

I humbly offer my apology here:
I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims (Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, etc.).
I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11.
I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs.
I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships.
I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth.
I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious schools, mosques, and government-controlled media.
I am sorry that Yasir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and high-jacked the Palestinian "cause".
I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.
I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA for all their problems.
I am sorry that our own left wing, our media, and our own brainwashed masses do not understand any of this (from the misleading vocal elements of our society, like radical professors, CNN and the NY TIMES).
I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.
I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death.
I am sorry that those same bombers are brainwashed thinking they will receive 72 virgins in "paradise."
I am sorry that the homicide bombers think pregnant women, babies, children, the elderly and other non-combatant civilians are legitimate targets.
I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape rooms and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making.
I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group.
I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.
I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah.
I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site."
I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church — one of our Holy Sites.
I am sorry they didn't apologize for flight 93 and 175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, the murders and beheadings of Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl, etc...etc.
America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those responsible because that is what we do.
We hang out our dirty laundry for the entire world to see. We move on. That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.
Deep down inside, when most Americans saw this reported in the news, we were like — so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners. Sure, it was wrong! Sure, it dramatically hurts our cause, but until captured, we were trying to kill those same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated?
Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burned among a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujahans.
If you want an apology from this American, go fuck yourself!
You have a better chance of finding those seventy-two virgins!
Crimson Ghost, US Marine Corps (Ret.)
Semper Fi

Well said, Thank You Ghost. Semper Paratus fargon

Does that apply to Christians too?? Hmm.... I certainly hope so!



Crimson Ghost - Your post was phenominal!! I thank you for your service in the USMC, and for that post.

Note to self: add CG to my list of heroes.

Better make it General Chuck Pitman. Or, maybe not.

Semper Fi, indeed. The author isn't even a marine.

I thought the fad of distributing and swallowing this kind of "patriotic" tripe had passed in 2003 or so. Oh well.

Say what you want about me but I like patriotic tripe whoever writes it.

Here you go, then. You'll love this one, also not written by the person it is attributed to. Maybe the one Charlie Daniels really did write will make you feel warm and tingly. Or maybe this one, entitled "You Worry Me", that includes this beauty:

I swear I can hear Toby Keith's "Beer for my Horses" playing, quietly.

Thank you. One of the things that's cool about America is that someone who loves America can have a civil discussion with someone who has little or no respect for what America stands for without either one fearing retribution from the other or from the State.

And, for the sake of discussion, do you live in America because you are not allowed to leave or because you are comfortable settling for less than some other country can offer you?

Agreed.

Uh... wha? Well, technically I live here because I was born here and that gave me automatic citizenship, but I continue to live here because there currently aren't any other places in this world I'd rather be. There are plenty of other countries that offer more freedom to their citizens than the US does at this moment, but I love this land, love her cities, and I love the varied culture across the regions. I couldn't leave that.

The religious leaders are really just aiding and abetting.

All of this shit is in the Koran, spelled out in plain English. errr, Arabic.

Just about any Book you look at will have its fair share of shit. What makes the Koran any worse than the OT? or any other "Because I Said So!" treatise? :eyebrow:

Yes.....look how people take shit from the bible, epecially the old testament, and use it to justify stupid behavior. :rolleyes:

There is a difference between religion and faith. A decent person of faith will take things that are decent, humane and benevolent out of any holy book and ignore the garbage. A religious fanatic will do the exact opposite.

The issue under discussion at present is why Muslim demonstrators are reacting with such fervour and violence.

I find it very difficult to understand why people who support the war in Iraq continually seem to confuse the issues there with Bin Laden's actions of 9/11. These conflicts began because the Bush government was unable to find Bin Laden and the public wanted retribution so they started a war - either justified or unjustified - to take the pressure off. Believe it or not, it had nothing to do with Christian behaviour. Muslim extremism is a problem as it is in any religion.

So yes, it applies to Christians as well. The problem is, the 'Christian' ones among us seem to have lost sight of their goals, while the Muslims seem to have a very clear goal.

No. Iraq was the goal from the start, even before 9-11.

I'd love to know what it is. What is the goal of Islam?

sorry it's huge but worth it.
http://blackstatic.net/cartoons.jpg

Delightful jag, thanks.

Nice job. It just goes to show that our founding fathers, flawed as they may have been, were the smartest bunch of prognosticators since Jimmy the Greek. If anyone needs to understand the reason for separation of church and state, this is it.

The twofer is freedom of the press and freedom of religion, rich.

Don't get me started on the separation thing ... I'm pretty sure it's been covered here.

Good to see other cartoonists standing up for their medium and freedom...

...scary to see not one US news agency has broadcast the images of the original cartoons. How do you report on something you can't even show or talk about?

Kudos, Jag. :notworthy

More here http://cagle.msnbc.com/

No shit? Gee I never would have guessed that.

The point is, 9/11 helped the government justify it's advance on Iraq which in turn took the pressure off its failure to locate and neutralise Bin Laden.

I think it's fairly clear what the goal of extreme Muslims is. If you're not sure, you should probably re read a few of the threads on here.

The Muslim world is protesting? Maybe not as many as you might think.

Ooo, scary! ~1,000 over-reacting protestors worldwide! Why is that the media, here, tends to make everyone think it is damn near all of them? Wouldn't this, you know, perpetuate the cycle?

In other news, the freedom of the press takes another turn. It seems a lot of people that are sure that we should have the right to publish some insulting cartoons think there are some photos that shouldn't be published. Or what about video?

I guess cartoons "don't hurt the troops", so that makes it okay.

Here's a link to some of the photos. They should have just released all the photos at once. Letting them out in dribs and drabs just keeps pulling the scab off the wound.

Maybe you forget why these photos are still relevant. We Americans have endorsed and encouraged torture. Those who most advocate and encourage this - ie Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales - are still in power, maintain that such practices are good for America, and, well, you do know about force feeding tortured prisoners in Guantanamo.

What we also know about Abu Ghriad is that most all prisoners were innocent. The great majority were released after three weeks - given something like $10 for their time and to be used to get home. You tell me who the great Satan is in this story?

Did we eliminate the problem? No. Most of us so hate what American stands for as to vote for the mental midget and his band of 'torture is good' promoters.

Want to stop such pictures? Impeachment is the word. Impeachment for crimes against humanity. Oh. Religious extremist don't believe this is a crime - as they also did during the Spanish Inquisition.

Keep those pictures dribbling. They will remind us that we are party to a great 'immoral' action - and don't speak out.

Most all those who were tortured - many of whom were also killed (ie that Iraqi General) were innocent. But since our emotions said they must be evil, then their death was a good thing? Ask yourself where this is called moral. Keep those pictures coming so that the guilty may eventually appreciate who evil ones really are. Shame that those pictures are so necessary. Absolute shame.

"they" in my post refers to the administration, which fought releasing them in the first place. I recall that they showed all the pictures to memebers of congress at the time, but only released some to the press. The rest they wanted to hide because they were even worse than the hooded wire guy and naked pyramid ones. You can't keep a lid on photos like this. They will get out. In order to maximize damage control, they should have released them all at once. It would have been slightly more painful at the time, but they wouldn't be resurfacing at a time that the world is in turmoil over a bunch of cartoons. What I'm saying is that the administration handled the fallout from these pictures poorly.

What I'm not saying is that the press shouldn't be printing them. I think the press should print them as they get them.

That's not true. Clearly those enlisted men brought dog collars and leashes to Iraq so they could intentionally torture and degrade prisoners. The administration rightly identified those enlisted men as an isolated group of torturers. Clearly neither General Miller, other officers, nor senior administration officials had anything to do with what is in those pictures. Actions that were documented by FBI agents who then left the locale due to repeated torture and other maltreatment. Clearly those pictures are only isolated examples of a few deviant Americans - not something that was initiated by Cheney, Gonzales, Rumsfeld, Wolfovitz, and George Jr's agenda. Clearly the White House acted responsibly; were forthcoming, transparent, and honest.

But then the victims were Muslim. They deserved what they got. Or maybe our administration instead lies? Why would I even suggest such nonsense.

Gosh TW, I didn't know you were so good at sarcasm. It's a talent you rarely display :thumb:

Let's keep this baby rolling.

I was just listening to a very interesting piece on NPR's Talk of the Nation. They were contrasting the furor over the Mohammed cartoons with the recent conviction and sentencing of David Irving for the crime of denying the holocaust. (The trial was in Austria; he got 3 years.)
This is a very awkward situation. I realize that Germany and Austria must have a very special relationship to their own history and their responsibility for the millions of WWII atrocities, and this form of censorship may be appropriate -- for them. America is really an outlier when it comes to our militant free-speech stance.
On the other hand, the Mohammed cartoons have killed protesters, and those the protesters target. Self-inflicted, all of it.

1. You can express your ideas.
2. You can't cause a riot.

What happens when your ideas cause a riot?

The police uphold the bloody law and if the protesters are breaking it, arrest them and since they're riot cops and therefore incapable of restraint, propbably kick their heads in. And you keep on expressing your ideas.

Eventually, when enough people (preferably, those with lots of money and power already) start agreeing with your ideas, you overthrow the government and start your own, and then go around kicking in the heads of the people who are spouting *their* ideas.

Government isn't hard. All it takes is money, and the power follows.

Irving's sentence was largely self-inflicted. He brought himself to fame (or infamy) by bringing a lawsuit in the UK against his detractors. He claimed that he was the victim of a world-wide Jewish conspiracy out to get him. He lost the case. Had he just laid low and contented himself with sniping in academic journals, I doubt if he would ever have come to the notice of the Austrian government.

The governments of Austrian and Germany can hardly be blamed for their stance on this subject. The two nations have the blood of 6 million people on their hands - especially Germany.

Let's face it, if someone had written that Mohammed inspires Muslims to become terrorists (this gets written all the time), it would not have had the impact of the cartoon. I'm not saying that the people causing riots or killing other folks in the process were in the right, but the cartoon was sacrireligous and, thus, doublely inflamatory to the Muslim world.

The Muslim people honestly believe that the West is to them what Hitler was to the Jews. The cartoonist and the newspaper which published his work were expressing their right of free speech the same way someone shouting "fire!" in a crowded theater does.

Again, I do NOT condone the more outrageous actions of the protesters. I'm just sayinng.

It’s not very awkward once we apply details. For example, Irving claimed he had changed his mind in the 1990s after learning more about those concentration camps. Problem: he was suing the Emory University professor in Britain in 2000. Irving claimed that he said he no longer agreed with his book years previous to 2000 when he was suing that Emory University professor to (essentiall) defend his book.

Irving apparently is a perverse liar. His sentence apparently goes beyond the holocaust. He lied to the court when he said he had changed his opinion in 1990s - to try to get his sentence eliminated. That trial is more about the credibility and honesty of Irving - who has a problem with both human requirements.

Yup, Irving really pulled a boner on that "I rethought my position in the 90's" defense. At the time of the civil suit that Irving filed in 2000, he also said "I'm going after Lipstadt because she's peddling her book in England; in the U.S. she is protected by NY vs. Sullivan, by the First Amendment..."

Hmmmm... A man who claims First Amendment rights bring suit in a country where he thinks they didn't care about the right to free speech. Interesting. He was also photographed front stage at skinhead rallies in Austria and Germany.

Tisk, tisk. Poor baby. Let's all jump on the bandwagon for free speech for Mr. Irving - the man who did his best to circumnavigate that right. Uh huh. :eyebrow:

Why doubley inflamatory? Twice as inflamitory as what?
Nonsense, there's no comparison. They are scumbags with nothing to do and nothing to lose so they have a riot for fun and prophet. :mad:

Twice as inflammatory as the written statement. The Muslims have some big prohibition against graven images which, I believe, extends to Mohammed, as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I never said the protestors were right in their extreme actions, merely that the cartoon was like a match to the kerosene.

If you saw Kitsune's link from post #22, you would know that's not true. :eyebrow:

So why would they be any different than Christians who fought and killed over the same nonsense. See previous history over Iconoclasts. That secular nonsense literally created another fissure in Christian faith.

Only problem with twelve cartoons is that they provide no intelligent thought, no humor, no useful sarcasm to cause intelligent people to see through religious extremist rhetoric, and only insulted. Reason to justify riots and create political hum-dung demonstrates how many leaders and their followers are inspired by lies and religious myths rather than the advancement of mankind.

I have no respect for the cartoon's author and have same disrespect for religious types who took such offense as to respond physically. No wonder god does not yet want man in space - which is why he keeps blowing up manned spacecraft and destroying probes to Mars. We remain tolerant of the absurd among us who cannot be bothered to first learn reality before proclaiming their rights and the power of their pagan gods. Yes it is a comment about both incited Muslims and another idiot: George Jr.

Thank you, Bruce. No, I hadn't seen Kitsune's link, but I do notice it makes mention of the "Islamic ban on depicting the Prophet." I also notice that none of the Muslim artists who broke that ban went so far as to depict the prohet as a smoking bomb. Again, I am not saying the protesters were right in going to the extremes that some of them did, I'm just saying.

My mom turned me on to this. We laughed till we cried. It would take me over three thousand years to explain why we found the ashtray joke hysterical. :lol:

dov, Thats not funny. I don't know why you are here, why don't you goto www.aquafans.com, they would love you over there.

you had to be there

Guess you would prefer Israel nuke Iran for Iran’s holocaust jokes, fargon.

Watch it with the ashtray joke. We lost a really good dwellar over the ashtray joke.

You really don’t get the irony; humour and genius behind it do you?

You really can’t understand one reason the Jews out lived the Egyptian, Babylon, Greek, Roman and Christian Dynasties by being able to make fun of ourselves. You are attempting to censor something you have no conception of. It’s a solution to the Iranian problem, defusing them immediately. You want to make racist jokes Iran about us? Too late we beat you to it. Like I said, around hear censorship and nukes prevail.

I post pics here, ones I consider quite engaging, not allowed, I post a very funny joke whose essence goes way over your heads, I’m censored. No BS hypocritical hierarchy with a saturated perspective of the world is getting rid of me. If you do, you most definitely, eventually will feel shame. Status quo is comfy. Wave making newbie is a no no. Look at yourselves, not at me, when your disturbed, if you are capable. Ya, I am pi$$ed off at the close minded cloistered community here, but not pi$$ed off enough to leave, YET.

The only person who could post the ashtray joke is a Jew. You don’t have to understand and there is know way for you to. You’d need a 3000-year-old heritage not a 300-year-old one to get it. You are off by twenty seven hundred years.

Mari, the thing I was pointing out is there has not been an across the board ban on depicting Muhammad. It’s interpreted by some clerics as a graven image but historically not a consensus.

Once again I’ll remind people these cartoons were not made for entertaining anyone.
1- The publisher wrote a book on the life of Muhammad or the Islamic roots or something.
2- He had trouble finding someone to illustrate the book.
3- He chided the community of illustrators for there lack of balls.
4- These cartoons were their response to HIM for his chiding.
5- He published them in his newspaper as part of an article on the trouble he’d had finding an illustrator and the growing fear of radical Islamics.
6- The cartoons were never meant to be stand alone political cartoons.

Dov, you’re right. The Jews have always had a self deprecating humor that makes it difficult for an outsider to top. My experience is the younger generations tend to bristle more when it comes from outside the Jewish community but this may be an American thing.
I agree the idea to beat the Arabs to the punch, is genius.

As for you getting your panties in a bunch, the pictures you find engaging, I find disgusting. That’s what freedom is about. I’m not going to burn anything down or riot in the streets nor will I stifle my opinion.
I know you’re not suggesting I do, I’m saying when you put up things like that you’re going to annoy some people and should expect them to show it. You were trying to provoke a response and you did, it just came in an unexpected form.

Your posts from the get-go have been geared to provoke rather than engage which is not the way to win friends an influence people. You claim not to want to win friends....fine, but I’ll bet you wish to influence people.
If you feel the backlash to your post is over the top, stop and look at your history here. :eyebrow:

You haven't been censored, you've been criticized. And you responded by criticizing those who criticize you. Does that make you a censor?

Your posts are all still there in their entirety. Nothing has been deleted. You haven't been banned.

Stop whining.

"I hate you assholes! And the worst thing is, you don't want me around!!!"

I find it strange that he censored himself for some reason. Unless he's implying, uh, expensive urine. Or something.

This song was old the first time it was heard. Yawn.

piss piss piss PISS :eek:

When I am finished testing my parameters here you all will be the first to know.
:)

You're finished now.

The main reason I have never listed what offenses make one "intolerably irritating" is that, inevitably, someone would take that as a list of things they could walk right up to the edge of, and then point to the list as evidence they were still ok.

"You can't do X." "Oh! Well I can do X minus 1 then! X minus 1, X minus 1, X minus 1 all daaay. X minus 1! I'm not touching you! Does this bug you? How about this? I'm not touching you!"

The "parameters" are not there to be "tested".

This is a community, not a game.

Goodbye, dov. You got exactly what you wanted. And you're right: everyone here is the first to know.

Do not provoke the Toad. :worried:


Eh, that was a knee-jerk reaction. Dov deserved it.

I do hope it's not about me. This is not a job I want so much as a responsibility I have to accept.

So sue him for slander/libel. Charge him with inciting a riot. Disturbing the peace. Public menace or whatever. The fact that Irving's a class A-1 dickhead is not being debated -- just the state's response to it. It's still an awkward situation for Americans to contimplate.

As for the Danes and the protesters, I get the impression that the conversation's going something like this:
The western world is acting like the parent of a angry teenager who has just discovered the right buttons to push to get what they want, every time.

Thanks for doing the dirty work, UT.

If I were in charge, I probably wouldn't have banned him, but who knows how I would feel if I had that responsibility on my shoulders. I certainly won't miss him.

Maybe it is about me after all. I could put it this way: I have no patience for it right now. I just got back from the two-hour return drive to put rack rails on the system. Rack rails for which I had to pay extra for overnight delivery. The system that, combined with the two other systems, cost big money to locate there. Except that one of the two other systems won't be paid for, increasing the cost for the Cellar system, because my business partnership turned out not to be so much of a partnership. Which in turn means there'll be less time to police the system, since I'll probably now return to a "normal" 60-hour/wk sysadmin job for the man, and under such conditions will probably either give up iotd or not police the system at all, so let's get rid of the people who just want to be assholes before that time huh.