Now this is funny as hell. What an idiot.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/08/...pe/29putin.php

If radical Islam ran through the region unchecked, it would disrupt the oil supply. Think of oil as a potential weapon in the terror war. This gives Bush a reason to attempt to institute a more democratic regime so that when Saddam falls he isn't replaced by Muhammed al Fluffer Nutter who would turn off the spiggot and support similar insurgencies in places like Saudi Arabia that actually grow people who attack us.

George Jr.___________ neo con____________encyclopedic puke fest_____________ MBA's_____________anti american_____________big dic____________ intelligent poster already stated___________________.


you fill in the blanks.

I've been meaning to make a "Cellar Mad Libs" thread, but now... nevermind. You insensitive bastard.

In several ways, tw does not qualify as an intelligent poster, nor is he likely to start qualifying anytime soon. So deficient is he in this field that not even he should take his views seriously.

He assuredly does not qualify as either a democrat or a classical liberal.

Although I don't disagree with your assessment I disagree with the weight of it as a reason we went in.

In other words, it's a war for oil, and China's oil as well.

Um, merc, I think Putin is a lot better at detecting intrigue than you think, especially something as obvious as this. This is part of Bush/Cheyney's preparation for the revival of the Cold War, and McCain, who fought a hot part of the Cold War, can claim experience in fighting a Cold War. Call us 'idiots' too for connecting the dots.

"The revival of the Cold War"? DB, that's -- so hard to believe I wonder that you believe it. Explain yourself, and it better be thoroughly rational.

There would be a few possible reasons why the United States would want to revive a cold war. The US is a world superpower and it, the ones in charge, want to keep it that way.

Russia and the former USSR have been bitter enemies ever since the end of WWII and the US has shown that it will be willing to do anything to get the upper hand in this war including dropping atomic bombs on already beaten countries and supplying Islamic extremist with weapons to fight against their Soviet invaders.

All we have to do is look back 2200 years in the Mediterranean to see a similar situation with Rome and Carthage. After the first Punic War, which Rome won, Carthage came back wanting revenge and Hannibal came into Roman territory, devastating them, before finally losing the second Punic War. Then, in between the second and third Punic war, Roman War Hawks would end every speech with some comment relating to the total destruction of Carthage, which they finally accomplished in later years.

Old Red Scare politicians, while not to the extreme as the Romans, still think in similar ways so they could want to start a second Cold War to either prevent a Russian "Hannibal" or to totally destroy Russia.

Another option is to look at who profits from Cold Wars, that can always give a hint onto what is happening as well.

Is this exactly what you meant to say?

Whoops. :redface:

The US and Russia/the former USSR have been.....

Huh?? please explain that one.

The dropping of the atomic bomb on Japan was more of an attack against the USSR then Japan. It really makes sense when you think about it. Both countries knew a stand off was going to happen, Japan's oil supply was nearly zero (aka they were beaten and they knew it), Japan was trying to get a conditional surrender, the USSR, the same USSR that sliced through Germany, just declared war on Japan, and neither the US or Japan wanted a North and South Japan.

Historians agree that the war was going to end by the end of the month. Just that if it was held off until later, Japan most likely would have split in similar fashion to Germany,without the British and French sectors of course, because during the few days the USSR was at war with Japan there was no stopping it.

In defense of the US, no one knew just how powerful and symbolic the atomic bomb was going to be but it does show how far a country will go to get the upper hand in a standoff such as the one between the US and USSR.

Sorry PH - the way I read it was that you were implying that we were willing to drop the bomb now. "in this war including dropping atomic bombs"

Whereas America would not drop an atomic bomb in Georgia, it was sure ready and may have planned a nuclear attack on Iran. Adm Fallon was quite blunt about saying he stopped an attack on Iran that coincided with a sudden concentration of aircraft carriers in the Gulf. That bunker busting nuclear bomb demanded by the George Jr administration back in 2003 was probably ready for deployment. To those who see war as the only solution - who would go to war without a strategic objective - Iran would have been a perfect testing ground for their new bomb.

A nuclear bomb would have made a statement of America's will - or how America views and must save the world.

I love how you are the only one knowing what America is/or is not planning to do - You really must be in the loop. Since no one else here has access to this valuable proprietary info please share the source with the rest of us.

Nah, I have no idea what the actual conversations are behind the closed doors.

Oh Classic, tw might be talking about this:

Revealed: Israel plans nuclear strike on Iran

That isn't the U.S. that's Israel.

Tw is always ready to demonstrate how big a nut he really is. Coconuts aren't in it! The man is still deranged enough to love any foreign tyrant, anywhere, any time (Any pics at home of George, or Richard, the Third?) rather than for the democracies where his sympathies should lie... or would if he acted and thought like a human being. Tyrant-lovers should be abominations even to themselves, and hasten to suicide to clean up our lovely world.

Care to cite a source for that bullshit? :eyebrow:

revisionist historians agree. of course, they also believe that Custer winked at Sitting Bull so deserved what he got.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_...ly_unnecessary

http://www.amazon.com/Racing-Enemy-S.../dp/0674016939

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_...ly_unnecessary

OK, so before those bombs were dropped Japan was ready to surrender and there was no expected need for allied forces to land troops in Japan?

Wikipedia, ba ha ha!!!1 . . . [/source-bashing] . . . totally just kidding

Japan wasn't the sort of nation to fight to the bitter end?

If classicman did not entertain a wacko extremists bias, then he read this even in the Cellar. A sudden concentration of at least four American aircraft carriers appeared at the same time that Cheney was preaching war-mongering rhetoric and fears about Iran's non-existent atomic bomb.

Oh. Fox News and Rush Limbaugh did not report it? Later, Adm Fallon, commander of Central Command at that time, says he stopped an American attack on Iran. Was he talking about an attack that involved many American aircraft carriers? Well, classicman did not even know about that gaggle of American carriers including Stennis, Truman, Nimitz, and other ships including Marine assault carriers Bataan and Boxer. classicman also did not read Adm Fallon's statement. All this was public knowledge available only to those who know by learning. And still classicman did not bother to learn facts. classicman would again attack others rather than admit he was again ignorant. classicman - did the extremist party propaganda network forget to inform you about an event 16 months ago? Or is it just easy to look smart by attacking the messenger?

People who also do not deny American torture and international kidnapping also knew this in March 2007. classicman ignored read news that contradicts his political agenda? What are we doing in Iraq?

So how do you and UG greet one another? Zieg Heil or Welcome Comrade?

Look twit - oh nevermind. You aren't worth the effort to push the keys down to type the words.

Funny how the only link you put into the above post is one to yourself - full of conjecture, assumptions and allegations with ZERO proof to back it up - just fucking fuck the fuck off. Oh and tell me do you and radar do the secret pinky shake each time you meet?

Sorry - couldn't resist.

Of which the title is. "Debate over the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki".
That tells me historians do not agree

So after 60 years and detailed research into Jap and Red archives, he's come up with this surmise.
Now, you think Truman should have had the same surmise, with access to neither? Get real.
That's the same link as the first one. Ike was in Europe, hardly in a position to know what was happening in Japan. Don't forget, while we are at war, the military brass are heros. But when the war ends they are yesterdays news, and sometimes unemployed.

The bottom line is, your statement; is preposterous.

I'd like to add a correction to my above post - just to be completely accurate.

...which has another link to another one of your own posts which is also full of conjecture, assumptions and allegations with ZERO proof to back it up. Quoting yourself doesn't necessarily make any of your statements/opinions or posts any more accurate, nor does it count toward backing up your unfounded allegations.
The more things change the more they stay the same.

How is the statement preposterous?

Japan was an already beaten country* and whether the use of the atomic bomb is debatable or not; Japan was beat. My other statement, the US giving weapons and money to Islamic extremists to fight against Soviet invaders, is correct as well. The Soviet invasion of Afghanistan shows that.

I'm not trying to pull off the "America is all evil and everything bad now is a result of its policies" statement, because that is bullshit, but we are in no way the good guys either. We are just watching out for our national interests (or corporate if you wish).


* - For Japan ready to surrender, if Truman changed his stance from "unconditional" to "conditional", the Japanese probably would have surrendered because from what I understand, their were seven people making the decisions on whether Japan surrendered or not: 3 military advisers, 3 other advisers, and the emperor. The three military advisers did not want to surrender, the three other advisers did, and the emperor didn't because he would then lose the ability to rule for himself and his lineage. So it was a very close decision at the moment and changing "unconditional" to "conditional" would have changed the emperors vote.

They surrendered after the dropping of two atomic bombs. I really doubt a full scale invasion would be needed since we had them blockaded, they knew they were beat, and they had the best two armies in the world coming at them from both sides. Germany didn't stand a chance and neither did Japan. Everyone was just delaying the inevitable.

Of course, and that is why the Japanese have been erased off the face the Earth...

The Japanese were prideful, but a few insane military leaders don't necessarily mean the whole population thinks a certain way. Even though it is on a much smaller scale, the pride in defending "Islam" has many similarities and I can guarantee that Muslims won't fight to the very end. The majority will adopt western culture the first chance they get. I can't see how the Japanese were that much different since they are VERY westernized nation at the moment.

What? Is it your age that is giving you these inacurate, and ridiculous ideas? Is it your teachers at the university? Is it that you are an American? Reread history about Islam. The majority in many geographic areas of the world will most certainly not embrace western culture, at any cost.

Yes many people of Japan would have fought to the what we would see as the "bitter" end. Yes, even in light of what we might call the invevitable victory. They were not cowards, in any sense of the word. They did not have your intelectual surrender in mind, you know, when you can see the end is near so you quit. I don't think that was going to happen.

What effort? You are so wacko extremist as to post insults (ie twit) and never a fact. classicman has been exposed again not knowing about current events even posted in the Cellar in March 2007. It was only a secret to those who post profanity due to shortage of knowledge.

Posted were numerous facts about a potential American attack on Iran complete with four attack carriers, Marine amphibious units, and the rhetoric from Cheney. Adm Fallon said he stopped an American attack on Iran. Those are the facts no matter how often a wacko extremist posts profanity and insult.

classicman - do you even learn from sources other than wacko extremist talk show hosts? You don't even deny listening to them. You did not even know about the American military deployment to the shores of Iran? That would require sources other than extremist talk show hosts and less time posting UG style insults.

I disagree. I am seeing a very conservative Islamic society turn Western, or at least pick up many Western influences, as we speak. I used to live in a Somalian neighborhood and I also had some Somalian friends, all of whom were Muslim. You would NEVER see any of them drink, smoke, or do any drug in public but once they had privacy I only saw them follow one Islamic "rule" and that was not to eat pork. They smoke, they drank, they watched porn, they did every vice Western children, especially African American (that is the culture they are picking up), did. They reason why they never did any of those vices in public was because of the tremendously strong social forces. If one of them got caught they would be ostracized. Once they did not have to follow their parent's and culture's rules they acted no different than non-Muslims do. Many women, the ones with that cover their heads, would be very sexually active as well. Some of my friends actually tried to hook me up with a Somalian woman.

Western culture, both "white" and "African American/others", is tremendously attractive to many non-westerners but their culture and social forces prevent many of them in fully participating in it. If Iraq does become stable and westernized, I would expect to see them start to embrace Western culture or their own version of it whether they like the United States and the West or not.

Three of the seven main deciders in Japan were for surrendering and Japan did surrender in the end. And yes, many Japanese would have fought to the bitter end and many Muslims will blow themselves up to fight imperialism but that doesn't mean the majority will. If you would read up on the Pacific War you would see that Japan went the Soviet Union to try to negotiate peace. It wasn't the "fight to the bitter end" that kept the Japanese fighting but the conditions we gave them if they did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrend...e_Soviet_Union

I see, you are basing your assumption on your experience with a Somali neighborhood, here in the states. Get a plane ticket and try that on for size on the Arabian Peninsula, or Pakistan. Yes, there are young muslim men, smoking and drinking, and looking at porn. Isn't that great? Wow, western influence at it's best. You think the older generation of Muslims are going to be o.k. with that? You think they will give up their youth to our "western culture" without a fight of some kind?

Unconditional surrender for a war that the Japanese started, with an unprovoked attack. I agree with the terms. If I were Japanese it would have taken a couple of atomic weapons to seal that deal as well.

You can't read remember you only know how to write. Well this post certainly exemplifies that. The on "facts" were references of you by you. Hardly anything worth repeating. You didn't cite anything at all, except yourself. That counts for zero, nothing at all.

I need not deny anything, why is it you feel that I have to justify myself or anything else for that matter to you? You give me all this crap after I voted you the most loved cellarite too - WTF?

Don't you read your own links?If historians agree, why is there a debate? :rolleyes:

Yes I am. I am not saying that every Islamic culture is at the same point as the Somalis, but that will most likely follow in a similar fashion.



Read this article:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6463059&&CM=EmailThis&CE=1

No, I do not think they will give up their youth to our "western culture" without a fight and I don't blame them in any way for it. I just believe they will lost that fight, big time.

I never stated my opinion in the matter and I made sure of it. The decision to drop the atomic bomb or not can be more or less justified based on the goals of the United States. If the US wanted to just end the war then they would not need to drop the bomb. If they wanted unconditional surrender or end the war before the USSR could get further influence in the region and possibly split the country like Germany then the bomb was most likely needed. That brings me back to my original point that we would drop an atomic weapon on an already beaten country to get an upperhand with the USSR. It may not be the only or main reason we dropped it, but that is most definitely a factor.

You're reading the wrong parts, Bruce!

No I'm not. He made the statement;That is total bullshit. Historians do not agree, and his very own links prove it.
The Wiki link is titled, "The DEBATE....", and goes on to present both sides. Just because he has chosen one side to believe, doesn't make it so, nor does it make his statement, "Historians agree...", any less bullshit.
He then goes on to make further assertions based on that bullshit, which makes them also bullshit.

sounds like a lotta bullshit going on somewhere

The historians agree part, ok, but what other parts are complete bullshit?

Remembered this ph45 discussion when recently Jon Stewart labeled Truman a war criminal. At the righty pjtv, Bill Whittle replies to Stewart with a very interesting 15 minute history lesson on what it took for Japan to surrender.

Our comprehension of real wartime is confused by the nature of modern war. We have not experienced a fight for the existence of the country in four generations. (Did you know the Manhattan Project required one sixth of all the electricity generated in the entire US?!) So the video is long, and gets too moralistic in the last minute, but it's worth the watch, if you have the time.

And, required viewing for ph45.

Historians agree pfffff. You're making the same mistake with the Somalis too. You never ever ever ever take one piece of evidence and attempt to describe an entire set of historical circumstances with it. Any halfway decent historian would laugh at you for doing so. Take a philosophy and writing of history course before you open your mouth about history again because it's obvious you don't have any concept of what good historical discourse involves.

Doing a little back reading. Wikipedia would never be allowed as a vetted source of information, at least not by my teachers. Neither would the internet. We have to crack books.

This video brings very little to the discussion.

First, he made some very big assumptions, the largest being that the Japanese would continue to have the will and resources to fight. Second is that the views of military leaders represent the views of the country. Third, while not an assumption, is never mentioning the fact that the Soviet Union would have an extraordinary effect on the Pacific Theater.


First, what evidence does the speaker bring to conclude that the Japanese would have kept on fighting? That death tolls were rising the closer the US forces got to Japan and a few specially selected quotes from hardcore military leaders?

First I will give a quote of my own by the Emperor after the battle of Okinawa,

"I was told that the iron from bomb fragments dropped by the enemy was being used to make shovels. This confirmed my opinion that we were no longer in a position to continue the war."

Second, here is a view of their economic standing at the time.

"The destruction of the Japanese merchant fleet, combined with the strategic bombing of Japanese industry, had wrecked Japan's war economy. Production of coal, iron, steel, rubber and other vital supplies were only a fraction of their pre-war levels."

Third, it is also documented that Stalin deceived the Japanese into believing that the Soviets would help a peace agreement so they could gain land. It is also documented that the Japanese looked to the Soviets for peace. Another quote from Japanese ambassador to Moscow.

"His Majesty the Emperor, mindful of the fact that the present war daily brings greater evil and sacrifice upon the peoples of all the belligerent powers, desires from his heart that it may be quickly terminated. But so long as England and the United States insist upon unconditional surrender, the Japanese Empire has no alternative but to fight on with all its strength for the honor and existence of the Motherland."

Fourth, it is finally documented that the Japanese even tried to reach a direct peace agreement with the United States.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg00120.html

(I'm not sure how reliable this source is but I have read this in books getting this information from first hand sources)

So basically, the idea that Japan would never have surrendered is complete bullshit. Japan was looking to surrender under the conditions that they could keep the monarchy while Truman and the allies would only accept unconditional surrender. This past argument was a while ago so I don't entirely remember what I believed at the time but I think it was the point that many lives could have been saved if conditional surrender was sought instead of unconditional. There was a large divide among the Japanese at the time, though saying that, it could have gone either way. But from the sources, it seems like at least some of the Japanese leadership were looking for surrender while it is also obvious that some were not as well.


To add some further information regarding the video. The atomic bomb was not the sole factor for the surrender either. As mentioned earlier, Japanese had very little resources. Two, the Soviets invaded around the same time as the atomic bomb droppings and that would have tremendous effects on the Japanese. Third, after the Japanese surrender, some of the military leaders that were obsessed with making sure that the emperor did not surrender attempted a military coup on August 12 to the 15.


That video is complete shit and only responded to elementary critiques of the atomic bomb dropping. To make it clear, I really don't have a strong opinion on this topic because I do realize the effects of the firebombing and it is extremely difficult to not go into that subject while talking about the atomic bomb but I do believe that Truman's pride and obsession with unconditional surrender led to the death of hundreds of thousands of innocent people. I also do not believe this is uncommon among leaders.



Uh huh. Well, as most teachers admit, Wikipedia is a great source to start researching for topics since many pages have very well documented sources. For example, if I did this topic for school I would read and document the sources that were cited in Wikipedia to get a start on my project. Also, I would actually do research because I have different standards on a graded assignment then an internet forum. This topic, link below, is very well cited and seems legitimate. If you disagree, show me how.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surrend...an#cite_note-3

Sure well cited and seems legit. Wiki is a good place to start. Vetted sources are harder to find. I'm only saying that to put myself across as a well studied man only citing wiki and internet sources is not working for the crowd I hang out with, nor is it working for me.

Will? The army that would rather commit suicide than surrender? You don't have a clue about the Jap culture of the era.
You reaffirmed my first statement, the military was the country. There were no views other than the military.
C'mon, with what? We were running a two front war because we had a chance to build an unbeatable war machine while the Russians were getting beat the fuck up. They had all they could handle just getting to Berlin, plus a lot of new territory they desperately wanted to hang on to. Their ability to stage a major attack on Japan was severely limited.

Japanese culture has very little to do with this. The Japanese leadership knew they could not beat the United States from the beginning and after Okinawa, many saw the war as a lost cause. The general population would have kept on fighting, but the leadership, while making some really stupid decisions, for the most part did not believe they could hold off the United States and Soviet Union without any oil.

It is shown that the Japanese went to Soviet Union many times looking for peace and were extremely divided themselves on the issue. The point is that the Japanese would seem to accept conditional surrender but not unconditional.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_War_Council_(Japan)

At the ending of the war, three wanted to surrender and three wanted to keep on fighting. Guess which ones were on which side.

To the general public, yes, the military had complete control but not in the government. Japanese leadership was extremely divided on the issue and many in the military did not want surrender even after the emperor changed his stance, hence the attempted coup.

Besides the million men they could have contributed to the front....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manchur...ration#Soviets

The fuck it doesn't, it's got everything to do with it. It was a culture of followers, order takers, don't rock the boat, don't make waves. The Japs did what they were told without question. Leadership? The military was leading the country, you think they started a war they knew they could not win? For what purpose? It is shown the Japs were in Washington looking for peace when Pearl Harbor was bombed. The duplicity of the japs in morning coats is well know. They pulled the same shit destroying the Russian fleet in 1908.
Nice link.
Two atomic bombs and half wanted to keep fighting. I guess we forgot to say "Simon Says, give up".
When the teacher wants to do math, it doesn't fucking matter that the first graders want recess.

Wrong, they couldn't hold on to Manchuria if they moved those soldiers out, but it's a moot point because they didn't have the food or supplies to support them. The Russian soldiers have to live off the land like Sherman in GA.
It's a long swim to Japan, the only way the Russians could have gotten there is if we moved them and that wasn't going to happen. They might have been able to get something going in '47, maybe even late '46, but not '45.

End of the war.

That is true but I have never once focused on the Japanese population. I have only focused on the people giving the orders when I say "will to continue". I have given you many quotes of leaders who thought continuing the war was pointless. That supports my statement.

Unless you think that the leaders couldn't think from themselves. Which in case I must ask who was giving orders then? God?

Pearl Harbor was a gamble that ended badly for the Japanese. They knew they could never take the United States head on so they gambled pearl harbor for time and resources they did not get.

It is not hard to see why the United States overtook the Japanese. Our resources, manpower, and economy was tenhold theirs.

Good point but in both those situations (Pearl Harbor and Russian fleet), they Japanese made an offensive move. There was no possible way they could make an offensive move on the United States after Okinawa, not possible.

Saying I want peace has a much different effect when you are planning on blindsiding someone versus you are on your back get your face smashed into the ground. The second has a 95% chance of being more sincere.

Nice response....

Just because information came from wikipedia doesn't mean it is false. Plus, I have most of my information from books that I cannot link too so I am doing the best I can without putting in unneeded time providing more reliable sources.

Japanese leaders (generalization) made their own decisions, the population were the sheep.

Explain this. I don't know how that makes any sense to my quote.

The Soviets were already there. The mobilized right after they took over Berlin. They were in the Kuril Islands in 1945.