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-   -   Obama's Dog (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=19812)

xoxoxoBruce 03-19-2009 01:51 AM

HSUS
Quote:

Despite the words “humane society” on its letterhead, the Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) is not affiliated with your local animal shelter. Despite the omnipresent dogs and cats in its fundraising materials, it’s not an organization that runs spay/neuter programs or takes in stray, neglected, and abused pets. And despite the common image of animal protection agencies as cash-strapped organizations dedicated to animal welfare, HSUS has become the wealthiest animal rights organization on earth.
HSUS is big, rich, and powerful, a “humane society” in name only. And while most local animal shelters are under-funded and unsung, HSUS has accumulated $113 million in assets and built a recognizable brand by capitalizing on the confusion its very name provokes. This misdirection results in an irony of which most animal lovers are unaware: HSUS raises enough money to finance animal shelters in every single state, with money to spare, yet it doesn’t operate a single one anywhere.


DanaC 03-19-2009 04:17 AM

So, is spaying and neutering at a particular age mandatory in some states?

Redux 03-19-2009 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 546791)

According to HSUS 2007 IRS filing, the organization gave $millions in grants to many local humane societies.

To give your link a little more perspective...

ActivistCash.com was created by the Center for Consumer Freedom that I referenced earlier in response to nirvanna citing it as a "factual" source even though it provides no primary source information or footnotes to verify its claims or charges (as most credilbe organzations would include as a standard practice).

It purports to be a consumer advocate organization but IMO, the evidence is rather compelling that it is a front group for the meat/poultry industry, restaurant industry, alcohol and tobacco interests, ...

Here is more on CCF and Activist.Com:
http://www.consumerdeception.com/
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php...nsumer_Freedom
http://www.bermanexposed.org/
http://www.cspinet.org/new/200302201.html

kerosene 03-19-2009 08:18 AM

I know we are talking about dogs, here, but I think it is appropriate.

xoxoxoBruce 03-19-2009 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redux (Post 546803)
.

To give your link a little more perspective...

Quote:

"Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on
a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of
it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people
don't want war neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in
Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the
country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to
drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist
dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no
voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders.
That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked,
and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the
country to danger. It works the same in any country."
So that's not true because it was said by Hermann Goering. :rolleyes:

sugarpop 03-19-2009 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC (Post 546441)
Because there are medical arguments against it. There are also 'moral' arguments against it. There is also the feeling of discomfort at ripping away the dog's reproductive organs.

Personally I wish we'd had Pilau done. I was persuaded out of it by my then partner and my brother. My Brother has absolutely insisted that his bitch, Amber, stays intact.

Spaying and neutering isn't the only way to prevent unwanted canine pregnancy...you can, y'know, not let your dog roam?

I asked earlier about the age at which the legislation mentioned, expects dogs to be neutered or spayed. I asked because there is a cultural divide between Americasn vets and British vets as to when the appropriate age wold be. As far as I know, American vets go a little earlier than British vets.

Well, I mostly have cats, and with cats, I think the issue is different. For one thing, neutering a cat when it's young will (usually) keep it from spraying all over the house, and keep it from fighting as much. For another, if you have a cat that goes outside, they won't just stay inside the fence, so they will most likely reproduce.

And isn't it similar to what people get when they're "neutered?" Why it would be ripping away at their reproductive organs? It's surgery. They are under anesthesia. And I've always heard they were healthier if they were "fixed." I didn't realize there health reason to NOT have them fixed.

sugarpop 03-19-2009 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana (Post 546486)
You seem to lack reading skills SP

Quote:
I have a two lb Chihuahua technically under this law I would have to pay $150 for her because technically she is capable of producing offspring and because having one breedable female I am considered a kennel so I would then have to pay $500 but no one in their right mind would breed a 2 lb dog and most veterinarians would not perform surgery on a dog that small when it is not an emergency.
Spay/Neuter is an important medical decision that should be made for each individual pet only after careful consultation with the pet's veterinarian, instead of mandated at a fixed age by the government.

Spay/Neuter is an important medical decision that should be made for each individual pet only after careful consultation with the pet's veterinarian, instead of mandated at a fixed age by the government.

Why is dangerous to spay/neuter a small dog? I've never heard that, and how would it be any different than a 6-9 month old kitten?

It would seem the law may be going too far, but in MOST cases, I think people should spay/neuter their pets if they aren't going to breed them. That is just my opinion.

sugarpop 03-19-2009 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana (Post 546494)
The people in Los Angeles did not vote on that issue their representatives did and I think you will see a change in representatives because of their actions.

Excuse me, I was LIVING THERE when it was on the ballot the first time. I VOTED ON IT.

Quote:

How are animals being protected when neutering is mandatory? Many of the people that have lower incomes will be dumping their animals because they cannot afford the procedures or the fines for not having the neutering done. This will cost the city of Los Angeles more money and more dogs will be euthanized. I am sure when the tax rates go up to cover the cost of that fiasco some of the people are not going to think it was reasonable.
They are just trying to cut down on the feral population and the ENORMOUS number of animals being put to sleep every year. It seems to me that you are being kinda irrational about this issue.

How will cost the city more money? If they cut down on the stray popultion, it would save them money. For lower income people, there are organizations they help pay for the services. That doesn't cost the city, they are charities.

Nirvana 03-19-2009 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop (Post 546996)
Excuse me, I was LIVING THERE when it was on the ballot the first time. I VOTED ON IT.

The only way you personally voted, was for who you elected to the city council. Oh wait are you on the city council?? Its ok to have an opinion but don't make stuff up.

http://laanimalservices.blogspot.com...r-measure.html

This measure will only increase shelter killing because those that cannot afford to have their pets neutered will be dumping them to avoid the fines.

sugarpop 03-19-2009 06:28 PM

Please do your homework. In California, they put things on the ballot and allow people to vote on them.

http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/archives/id/13616/

Two propositions about animal rights will appear on the ballot in November, thanks to the initiative of grassroots organizations in California.

Over 700,000 citizens signed petitions for both measures so that voters will decide whether Propositions 4 and 6 will become California law.

Proposition 4 prohibits the use of a "padded steel-jawed leg hold trap" when catching fur-bearing or non-game mammals for commercial or recreational use. It also prohibits the use of two specific poisons...

Proposition 6
makes the possession, transfer, or receipt of horses for slaughter for human consumption a felony...

sugarpop 03-19-2009 06:29 PM

I think I know what I've voted for... :rolleyes:

TGRR 03-19-2009 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop (Post 547034)

Proposition 6
makes the possession, transfer, or receipt of horses for slaughter for human consumption a felony...

Why?

Nirvana 03-19-2009 07:31 PM

So that people could dump their horses all over the state when they can longer afford to feed them. Thats happening now all over the country because there is really no other recourse.

Oh I see you voted in 1998 on the spay and neuter ordinance the City of Los Angeles passed in February 2009, whatever SP:rolleyes:

sugarpop 03-19-2009 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana (Post 547065)
So that people could dump their horses all over the state when they can longer afford to feed them. Thats happening now all over the country because there is really no other recourse.

Oh I see you voted in 1998 on the spay and neuter ordinance the City of Los Angeles passed in February 2009, whatever SP:rolleyes:

I SAID I voted on the HORSE MEAT issue. YOU don't read well.

sugarpop 03-19-2009 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGRR (Post 547044)
Why?

Well, back when the ammendment was on the ballot, apparently more than a few people got really upset when they found out their pet horses, which they had sold, were being transported into other states and ground up as meat for consumption. Most people who keep horses as pets would never consider selling them for this purpose. They thought they were going to loving families. So, it caused an uproar. there were people buying the horses under the pretense that they were going to keep them as pets. And then, there's this... ...It said that horses are killed in cruel and unusual ways when they are slated as food, because euthanasia ruins the meat of the animals...

Nirvana 03-19-2009 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop (Post 547097)
I SAID I voted on the HORSE MEAT issue. YOU don't read well.

SP since you cannot even seem to read what you write yourself let me refresh your short term memory......
"Please do your homework. In California, they put things on the ballot and allow people to vote on them."

My comment before your comment above was about the spay and neuter, and you implied that the spay neuter was put on a ballot that everyone could vote upon. Why don't you stay out of conversations that seem to confuse you into writing butt covering tripe.

sugarpop 03-19-2009 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop (Post 546423)
I support every single thing listed on that link. In California, the people get to vote on issues like this. I know, I lived there for 10 years, and I voted on the horse meat issue. California is a very pet-oriented state, and the people there will probably vote to protect animals.

In addition, the link you provided to the legislation, it seemed pretty reasonable to me.


sugarpop 03-19-2009 09:48 PM

I never said I voted on ANYTHING other than the horse meat. I said I supported the things in the link you posted, and went on to explain how things are done in California, where THE PEOPLE vote on issues like that, because they are put on a ballot.

Nirvana 03-19-2009 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop (Post 546996)
Excuse me, I was LIVING THERE when it was on the ballot the first time. I VOTED ON IT.


Just for fun SP :rolleyes: again no you did not vote on it the city council of Los Angeles voted on it.

sugarpop 03-19-2009 09:49 PM

[quote=Nirvana;547114]
Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop (Post 546996)
Excuse me, I was LIVING THERE when it was on the ballot the first time. I VOTED ON IT.


Just for fun SP :rolleyes: again no you did not vote on it the city council of Los Angeles voted on it.

I was talking about the HORSE MEAT. My god you are dense.

Nirvana 03-19-2009 09:54 PM

I see you are still having trouble : no one was talking about horse meat you answered my quote here about spay and neuter

Originally Posted by Nirvana View Post
The people in Los Angeles did not vote on that issue their representatives did and I think you will see a change in representatives because of their actions.

you said
Quote:

Excuse me, I was LIVING THERE when it was on the ballot the first time. I VOTED ON IT.
Well no you did not

sugarpop 03-19-2009 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana (Post 547118)
I see you are still having trouble : no one was talking about horse meat you answered my quote here about spay and neuter

Originally Posted by Nirvana View Post
The people in Los Angeles did not vote on that issue their representatives did and I think you will see a change in representatives because of their actions.

you said

Well no you did not

You posted a link, THIS LINK, http://www.hsus.org/legislation_laws/
I went and looked at the link. Horse meat was one of the issues in the link. I was explaining that in California, the people get to vote on things like that, and used the example of the horse meat issue as one that I had voted on. You assumed I was referring to something else, but I never, once, mentioned spay and neuter in my post.

Nirvana 03-19-2009 10:28 PM

I did not assume anything, you quoted my post on a spay and neuter vote, pretending you had voted on that subject. But you have fun shuffling off to Buffalo ;)

sugarpop 03-19-2009 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nirvana (Post 547134)
I did not assume anything, you quoted my post on a spay and neuter vote, pretending you had voted on that subject. But you have fun shuffling off to Buffalo ;)

NO I DIDN"T. I SAID I VOTED ON THE HORSE MEAT ISSUE.

Please, post the comment where I said I voted on a spay and neuter program. I fucking dare you. You can't, because I NEVER SAID THAT.

Nirvana 03-19-2009 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop (Post 547135)
NO I DIDN"T. I SAID I VOTED ON THE HORSE MEAT ISSUE.

Please, post the comment where I said I voted on a spay and neuter program. I fucking dare you. You can't, because I NEVER SAID THAT.

You dare me? Do you double DOG dare me? :apaw:

sugarpop 03-19-2009 10:40 PM

Nope. You know what, I'm done. You win, OK? there. happy?

TGRR 03-19-2009 11:51 PM

WILL SOMEONE PLEASE TELL ME WHAT'S WRONG WITH HORSE MEAT?

TGRR 03-19-2009 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop (Post 547102)
Well, back when the ammendment was on the ballot, apparently more than a few people got really upset when they found out their pet horses, which they had sold, were being transported into other states and ground up as meat for consumption. Most people who keep horses as pets would never consider selling them for this purpose. They thought they were going to loving families. So, it caused an uproar. there were people buying the horses under the pretense that they were going to keep them as pets. And then, there's this... ...It said that horses are killed in cruel and unusual ways when they are slated as food, because euthanasia ruins the meat of the animals...

No it doesn't. You run an electrode up their arse and *zap*. So long, Black Beauty.

sugarpop 03-20-2009 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGRR (Post 547160)
No it doesn't. You run an electrode up their arse and *zap*. So long, Black Beauty.

I was quoting that last part. I don't know how they are killed. I was just reiterating my rememberance of why some people wanted that issue on the ballot (it was over 10 years ago). I think people don't want to eat any kind of meat that they consider pets. Since a lot of people keep horses as pets in this country, eating horsemeat is horrific to them, like eating cats or dogs. I certainly wouldn't want to eat it, but I rarely eat any kind of meat anyway.

classicman 03-20-2009 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop (Post 547501)
but I rarely eat any kind of meat anyway.

Taken out of context that could be a bad thing.

Nirvana 03-21-2009 12:15 AM

Look documentation :eek: ;)

An Introduction To
The Animal Rights Agenda

HSUS and PETA masquerade as organizations concerned with the welfare of animals, but in fact their agendas are to eliminate all relationships between humans and animals. They use the terms "animal rights" and "animal welfare" interchangeably to promote their radical objectives.

PETA, in 2007, euthanized 97% of the animals they claimed they were "rescuing" from legitimate animal shelters. They did so in order to "liberate" them from "enslavement" they would be subjected to if they were taken in by humans who value the companionship of animals as pets.

HSUS does not operate a single animal shelter. None. Local humane societies are not funded by HSUS. Very little of the money given to this group has been used for the welfare of animals. Millions of dollars donated to H$U$ for the care of animals that could not be taken to safety with their families following Hurricane Katrina were diverted to its lobbying activities, and this is the subject of current investigations.

H$U$ spends tens of millions of dollars annually promoting the notion that there is a huge population of companion animals roaming unchecked in virtually every city and township and rural county in the nation, and uses this myth as justification for seeking the passage of laws to restrict animal ownership. They state that some 3 million dogs and cats are euthanized each year by animal shelters because "homes can't be found for them" due to the fact that many people who want a pet choose to buy a dog or cat of a particular breed (or age or sex or size or temperament). They fail to mention that the euthanization statistics include feral cats, ill and/or aged animals brought to shelters by owners who have decided a humane death is the last kindness they can give a beloved pet, and dogs surrendered to shelters specifically because of temperament issues that make them unsuitable as family pets. If it were true that all of these 3 million animals could have been appropriately re-homed if people did not buy puppies and kittens from people who breed them, there would be no need for animal shelters to import puppies from other countries to satisfy the demand for "adoptable" animals.

If PETA and H$U$ were truly concerned with actual animal welfare issues, they would be urging budget increases for the agencies charged with enforcing existing animal cruelty laws. There ARE abused and neglected animals, and those who mistreat animals are in violation of regulatory laws that are already on the books in every state. Rather than encouraging that these laws be effectively enforced, they seek to have laws enacted that severely restrict, and will eventually end, ownership of all animal species. This is NOT an "animal welfare" goal, and only a tiny fragment of the vast amounts donated to PETA and H$U$ in the name of "animal welfare" is used to improve the well-being of domestic animals.

The vast majority of the money given to these groups by well-meaning animal lovers is used for political action, including lobbying for anti-animal ownership laws and campaign contributions to candidates who support their agendas.

From Wayne Pacelle (President) The HSUS
“We would be foolish and silly not to unite with people in the public health sector, the environmental community, [and] unions, to try to challenge corporate agriculture.” (Animal Rights Convention, July 1, 2002)

“Our goal is to get sport hunting in the same category as cock fighting and dog fighting.” (Bozeman (MT) Daily Chronicle, October 8, 1991)

When asked if he envisioned a future without pets, “If I had my personal view, perhaps that might take hold. In fact, I don’t want to see another dog or cat born.” (quoted in Bloodties: Nature, Culture and the Hunt by Ted Kerasote, 1993).

“We have no ethical obligation to preserve the different breeds of livestock produced through selective breeding. One generation and out. We have no problem with the extinction of domestic animals. They are creations of human selective breeding." (Animal People, May, 1993)


PETA, Ingrid Newkirk (President)
“There’s no rational basis for saying that a human being has special rights. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy. They’re all animals.” (Washingtonian magazine, August 1, 1986)

“Pet ownership is an absolutely abysmal situation brought about by human manipulation.” (Harper's, August 1, 1988)

“The bottom line is that people don't have the right to manipulate or to breed dogs and cats........If they want companionship, they should seek it with their own kind.” (May 1, 1993)

“There is no hidden agenda…Our goal is total animal liberation.” (Animal Rights Convention, June 30, 2002)

"[A]s the surplus of cats and dogs (artificially engineered by centuries of forced breeding) declined, eventually companion animals would be phased out, and we would return to a more symbiotic relationship--enjoyment at a distance." ("Just Like Us? Toward a Notion of Animal Rights", Harper's, August 1988).


Other leaders in the Animal Rights movement
"My goal is the abolition of all animal agriculture." JP Goodwin, employed at the Humane Society of the US, formerly at Coalition to Abolish the Fur Trade

"Our goal is to make [the public think of] breeding [dogs and cats] like drunk driving and smoking." Kim Sturla, former director of the Peninsula Humane Society and Western Director of Fund for Animals, stated during “Kill the Crisis, not the Animals” campaign and workshops 1991

"Let us allow the dog to disappear from our brick and concrete jungles--from our firesides, from the leather nooses and chains by which we enslave it." "The cat, like the dog, must disappear... We should cut the domestic cat free from our dominance by neutering, neutering, and more neutering, until our pathetic version of the cat ceases to exist." John Bryant, Fettered Kingdoms: An Examination of a Changing Ethic (Washington, DC: People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, 1982)96.

TGRR 03-21-2009 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarpop (Post 547501)
I was quoting that last part. I don't know how they are killed. I was just reiterating my rememberance of why some people wanted that issue on the ballot (it was over 10 years ago). I think people don't want to eat any kind of meat that they consider pets. Since a lot of people keep horses as pets in this country, eating horsemeat is horrific to them, like eating cats or dogs. I certainly wouldn't want to eat it, but I rarely eat any kind of meat anyway.

Sentimentality has its place.

sugarpop 03-23-2009 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by classicman (Post 547602)
Taken out of context that could be a bad thing.

Well, since you got mad when I joked about stuff like that before, I will refrain from some smartass remark this time. :D


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