this is the LJ we know and love

is it this?

lick it

present it.

Fixed that for you.

are you saying you don't love me?

ow: my feelings.

Do you feel my posts in this thread were troll-like and aggressive?

Because I was honestly trying to give the guy my perspective, and how I would have reacted and why, based on what he wrote. It seems to me that there are a few people following me around and jabbing at me off-topic in any thread I post in, to get a rise out of me, and all it does is derail the thread. That, actually, is trolling.

Actually, here I thought you were just getting defensive after Ali's post...thats why I sugged letting it go. (When she said that no one else here was actually accusing him of betrayal).

But otherwise, in some other threads...yes. Im sure its just your style...you are obviously an intelligent and strong-willed individual who wont take any guff from anyone.

I gotta cop to this.

I've totally been doing that. I apologize. I won't do it any more.

I think what you do a lot of is reitterate previous points, but you don't need to. Because it's all there for the long term once you've pressed the send button. Say what you need to, and then let someone else have a go. Just because their perspective is different doesn't necessarily mean they think you're wrong, or that you should think they're looking to argue with you.

With regard to this particular thread and the advice that you've given dis, I'd say you've made your point very clearly. That's all Pico was saying. That we all get where you're coming from. :)

Oh. I was trying to clarify what I DID mean. Because if someone thinks I've accused them of something, and I wasn't intending to, I usually try to clarify my intentions, in the hope that they'll understand and not go on carrying the idea that I was accusing them.

It seems like maybe my communication style and tendency to try to clarify when I think I've miscommunicated are not typical here? But I would rather reiterate in an attempt to further communication than let a misunderstanding rest.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

I used to do a lot of that myself, and honestly, all it did was annoy people. The difference with this forum is that most people are fairly open minded and willing to consider almost any point someone makes, but there's no way everyone is going to agree with anything anyone says here. There's just too many of us looking in from different angles. Just to reitterate (j/k), that's what I mean when I say to say your bit then let someone else have a go. It's interesting to watch what might spin off sometimes.

It's not like I can stop anyone else from having a go.

I'm not trying to please everyone here, and if I think someone has not understood me, I'm not going to stop explaining to them just because some other person I'm not even talking to might be tired of reading my explanation.

tiki: By all means, if I've got it wrong, keep explaining.

But my current take on your viewpoint is "Admit it, you're a horrible deceitful liar. And even if you didn't think you were being a horrible deceitful liar, just admit that you're a horrible deceitful liar. Once you admit this, then you will know that you are a horrible deceitful liar and I will feel better even if you don't."

I may have gotten that wrong, but it's really coming across like your angle is that I was consciously being deceptive, even if I didn't realize I was doing it (which might contradict "consciously"), so I'm supposed to find something meaningful in admitting that I'm whatever you think I am.

Does that about sum it up?

No, I was trying to explain that I would probably have reacted similarly to the way your ex-girlfriend did, and also to explain why.

Since you asked for feedback that might give you insight into the situation, I thought it might be helpful for you to hear how she might be thinking of it.

And yeah, that means that, like your ex-girlfriend, I kinda think that the way you went about the weekend, going back on your promise, was wrong. But my intent in telling you is so that, perhaps, you would have a better idea of her perspective, and maybe having that, be better able to talk to her from a position of empathy and understanding.

Because you asked.

But maybe you did everything just exactly perfectly right, and your ex-girlfriend is just a total unreasonable cunt.

You're better off without that stupid irrational whore. I don't know why you ever fell for a bitch like that in the first place.

See, here's why I keep getting hung up on this (Hey, I've got a highly emotional and irrational coupon that expires this week), but you keep telling me that the problem is that I broke my promise.

I guess I'd be more receptive to that if, say...I'd promised something? Maybe swore on a stack of phonebooks that I'd do one thing and then gone back on it.

I said "well, let's set the pressure aside and go have a fun weekend anyway." Hardly a blood oath. I think I've made stronger and more specific commitments ordering lunch than a statement like that. Clearly, there was a major mis-communication here. And I'm willing to admit that I should've listened better, and I should've taken the chance that there wasn't the immediacy that I thought. I'm not trying to say I'm blameless, but I am short in the clue department.

As for your latter patronizing comment, my conversation with you is done.

daff0dil: I hear you on the backing off part. I'm doing my best on giving her space (many signs point toward the conclusion that I didn't give her enough time and space before. Might be the best path now.)

I'm thinking I might try to call her this weekend and just say something like "Hi, calling to say hello, thinking of what happened, and thinking of you. Let me know when you're ready to talk."

Would probably work better as a voicemail message, but planning on falling back on "let's not have a serious conversation over the phone" if she answers and things sound like they're getting rough.

I've caused enough difficulty, I'm not looking for adding more. But right or wrong, I know that I'm going to be beating myself up if I don't leave the possibility of conversation. It might be self-indulgent, but I'm aiming to keep it as simple as possible.

After that, I don't know. Limbo. Purgatory. Whatever. It stands to reason that at some point if she doesn't want to respond, I'm going to have to figure out how to move on with my life, closure or not. That's another day's worry, though.

You don't seem interested in hearing about where you might have gone wrong or what you could do differently or why she reacted badly, despite what you said initially... so what DO you want to hear? That she's wrong for feeling that way?

So, despite the fact that she said that, you don't want any suggestions that might lead to insight about why she feels that way? If you won't acknowledge her feelings regarding that, I definitely don't think you should talk to her at all, because it will only rend in her being angry and you feeling more hurt.

I tried to explain why I think she probably feels this way. You don't want to hear it. I don't really have anything else to add.

tiki: I heard you the first half dozen times. Dredging up my words about what she told me versus what was going through my head doesn't change anything. It's already clear that they weren't matching up, alright?

At this point, you're not giving insight, you're not enlightening me, you're just positioning yourself to argue with me in place of her. Maybe you think you're doing something honorable in that.

Way I see it, you've made up your mind about me. That's awesome for you. It just seems like utter bullshit that you keep pretending you're doing it for my own good. I'm not asking for sympathizers, but holy fuck, give it a goddamn rest already, would you? I FUCKING GET YOUR POINT, ALRIGHT?!?

No wonder she doesn't want to be with you. You're kind of a dick. :lol: Fuck you.

Yes but you haven't praised the source, begged forgiveness, and promised never to do it again. :haha:

tiki: Clearly there's plenty of room for you to play victim. This thread has been sprinkled with that, and I hope it's working out well for you.

xoxoxoBruce: My aim wasn't to get wrapped up in some pissing match, maybe my fault was having some aim at all. That said, one grain of salt is diminished while another grows.

Ppphhhhffft! :lol: It's not me playing victim, here. But thanks for the laughs.

tiki: Like I said, I've got a nice "I'm fucked up" coupon (that'll probably expire soon) You, on the other hand, continue to post to get the upper hand.

I know I'm screwed up right now, but I also know that it's limited on how long before people call bullshit on it.

You...well, it seems that likely that you'll keep on doing your thing as long as it gets you attention. I'll give you a hint: You lost all credibility when you posted your little picture flipping off the camera. I was ready to listen until you decided to pull the "Look what a badass I am" card.

I hope life treats you well. I'm sure anyone willing to listen to you in the bad times will have their work cut out for them.

Disenchanted - may I say how sorry (and indeed embarrassed) I am that this thread has turned into a pissing match. There is a thread for that elsewhere ...
I wish you luck in your next contact with your GF - luck in that it moves the situation on ...

limey: Thanks, well appreciated. I'm spun up right now, and it's making it easy to get drawn into a fray that might exist beyond my topic. I think I'd be wise to back off a bit for now.

I've got some hastily scattered notes from the advice I got (both the easy to take, and the not so welcome) and I'm going to mull on those a little. I think I'll call the lady tomorrow aiming more for an indication of "Hey, when it's time, I'd like the chance to talk."

Maybe I've got a lot to answer for, maybe it was just nerves. I don't know right now. I'm going to allow myself the indulgence of trying to make it clear that I'm open to talk, but I'm leaving it at that. Intended or not, I've probably added enough pressure as it is.

Already been through hell, not quite done with it. I am fortunate enough to have some amazing friends who are seeing me through.

Me reposting my backyard pic for Pico was all it took for you to form a snap judgement? Damn, I'll have to remember that for future reference.

tiki: Good for you. I'm glad you've got your pain to wear as a badge. That must be awesome. I bet it feels really good being right. Hey, this must be like extra laurels on top of all that, huh?

(crap. I was supposed to walk away. Exhibit E on me not good with the thinking things through before responding to the troll.)

I'm not always right, and I know that. And I know that you're angry and hurting and upset right now, and I shouldn't have reacted with anger at you taking offense to my interpretation of what you posted. I'm sorry for that.

As far as badges of pain, we all have those, I think.

I took this at face value.

Errr...ok

Dis - good plan on the non pushy *when its time, I'd like a chance to talk* approach.


Thing with women (some of them anyway) is we are usually proactive, rather than reactive and we have these things analysed, sorted and stored....by the time you guys even get an inkling that there is an issue.

I hope you stick around here, and best wishes for the outcome you are hoping for...or some closure.

Make good use of your fucked up coupon, the expiry dates around here are foooorever.

Big hugs Dis - Us womenfolk are hard to read - (You menfolk too for that matter) - Agreed on the "no pressure" approach to talking to her - maybe an apology for creating pressure on what was to be a no-pressure weekend (doesn't matter if you were right or wrong)? and a let's take it easy, and try to recreate what we had the week that was so good before it went bad? Good luck - If she really is the one, it will all work out fine.

oh man, this is all painful to read

first off, this isn't about tiki and her "issues" whatever they may be, so maybe we can get off that? I thought it was about a broken engagement and finding clarity or closure?

so in that vein:

d: the longer you look for a person to blame or what you did wrong or what she did wrong the longer you will be mired in details that are not, actually, relevant any more.
I understand, you are hurting and you love her and you want to be with her or atleast understand why you can't be.

one day you will probably get all these things, in the meanwhile, I am going to suggest something else:

here is what you know:
-whether or not she wanted to marry you for an hour or a second or a year, at the moment she does not want to, and is so uncomfortable with the thought she doesn't even want to talk to you yet. I would assume she wanted to marry you at some point and that whatever happened had something to do with you and something to do with her.

-she probably will one day want to resume contact, and when she does you can make that easier by briefly letter her know that you still love her, that you are sorry for the way things went down (not sorry you proposed, just sorry that it turned out how it did) and that you are here to listen, when that time comes. if you leave a message to that affect great. that seems perfect. if she picks up I'd tell her the same thing: you love her and are concerned about her and when she's ready to talk you are in need of clarity and closure. in person. remember: at this point, it's about you, not her. you don't know what's going on with her but you know what is going on with you.

-she will never feel good about saying yes than saying no. that just isn't something anyone tends to feel good about unless they are uniquely cruel. so don't hold it against her or find ways as to how or why she did something wrong when she said yes or no. she probably gaved mixed signals. you probably followed them because you wanted to believe them. not because you are deceitful. but you inadvertently misled her in your need.

anyway, that is my ten cents

well, that and about half of you are immature prats far too uncomfortable with your own emotions to witness criticism and conflict with jumping in or exaperbating it with the verbal equivelent of a sledgehammer and a whoopie cushion

back to the loch with yooo, nessie!

yeah, I think that's a good idea. I'm finding these swamps a little murky.

nice meeting you all. well, not all of you. but certainly some of you.

daffodil, that really made sense.

Dis: don't get too hung up on blame, mate. Understanding what went wrong is good, but be kind to yourself.

Hey disenchanted:

Man, I am so sorry to hear your painful news. I think I know how you're hurting, because I have had similar experiences. There's really a lot goin on in this thread...Your original plea for help to make sense of it all, that's my starting point.

I don't know you really, at all, but you suggested you had a number of posts here and I went and reread them. You sound like a good guy. Your posts are clear and serious. You seem very sincere, earnest even. Kinda like me, minus the clarity. I recognize you. So I'll tell you about my thoughts and experience, you take what you want and leave the rest.

Specifically, what I recognize in myself, after reading your story, is an unequal desire in each partner for the other partner. You, unfortunately, desire her more than she desires you. This sucks. You're more invested, your stakes already in the game are higher, your hurt from rejection is greater. (Now, she may be flogging herself without mercy, I don't know. When she shows up here and tells us, I'll recalculate accordingly.) You soared higher, you fell farther, you hit harder. Good for you.

I am not mocking you.

Be yourself, feel deeply. But know (you know now whether you knew before or not) that the risks are great. The rewards are even greater though. This is the first sense making point I wish to emphasize. You're doing it right, at least this part.

But disenchanted, your love is not enough. Not when the other partner does not have a similar commitment to you, and to the relationship. I'm not arguing that the measure of your love needs to be equal to four decimal places, as if love could ever be measured that way. I am saying that your strong desire was enough to prompt you to invite her to join you at the next higher level of commitment. Her desire, not only unequal to yours, does not even meet that minimum threshold. This is important.

Marriage, as you know, is work, shared work. You can not do her part. In this particular situation, your love, no matter how passionate, or how desperate, can not sustain any kind of bond without her active participation. You can't cover for her on this score. You may want to, you may believe you can do it, but you can't. It is easy to miss this because of how love works, how love feels. Countless voices far more eloquent than mine have extolled the magical blindness that accompanies the feelings of love. This is second sense making point I wish to illustrate. You misread her level of commitment to you and your relationship.

To be fair, she missed it too. But that's the thing about love, it has this wonderful positive feedback effect. Probably she has some love for you, and those feelings were amplified by your love for her. It's contagious! The right answer to your Big Question (at that moment) was Yes! But the boost was not enough to carry the day. It was only temporary--the moment had passed--and the remaining level, her level of desire, wasn't enough to justify a Yes! the next morning.

I'm tempted to say that this is sad, and in a way it is sad. A loss like this really hurts, there's no question about that. But I have to confirm the cold comfort offered by many in this thread that it is no small mercy that this decision was reached at this early stage. I have lived this myself. Your belief or understanding of this point in no way alters its fundamental truth. It is a blessing in disguise. A kick-ass (or ass-kicking) disguise to be sure, but an awesome blessing needs an awesome disguise. I do share your pain. I know this hurts and I hate to see you suffer.

As to the communication issue, what do I know? Clearly it went off the rails, soared in a pleasant free fall for a while, then cratered spectacularly on the opposite side of the ravine. Fascinating and horrifying at the same time. Communication is another shared enterprise, like marriage, that can not be done by one. While much of what makes a marriage work depends on communication, the blinding effect of love that makes marriage easier, makes communication harder. Much harder. Much blinder. You heard what you wanted to hear, through the filters of your powerful feelings for her. Same goes for her. Then when the blinding intoxication of love wore off the next day, a review of the minutes from the previous meetings produced a shocked surprise. In my experience, reviewing the transcripts for he said, she said is rarely useful for anything except accumulating more ammunition for more conflict. Don't bother. Start/continue where you are now. Have a short memory. Short and selective. (Yeah, I know that cuts both ways. So sue me.) Recriminations are counter productive. My sense making point: selective hearing under the influence of love, both parties guilty. Move on, move forward.

What else is there? Your future, your immediate future? Ok, I'll bite on that one too. "Giving some space..." zomg. Herculean. And Sisyphean. But noble and worthwhile. If you press, she withdraws. If you chase, she runs. If you pursue, she flees. Proceed accordingly. A friendly suggestion from someone who also feels deeply--pick the maximum distance, psychically, temporally, physically that you tolerate, and double it. Use that as your baseline. Not to get all Johnathan Livingston Seagull on you, but if she wants contact, wants *you*, she'll find you. If you don't hear from her, it's not time yet. Don't despair, this is not permanent, despite how it feels. When you've reached your absolute limit, and then waited some more... you'll cave and contact her. That's ok. You'll learn something and you can recalibrate at that time. It will be ok.

It will be ok. You know this because you yourself said so, and lived this truth based on your previous posts over the years. Yeah, I know it sucks in the meantime. Sorry. At least you have all of us to entertain you while you heal.

Very lucid and thought provoking, V. I am glad I read that.

Thank you, case, for the compliment.

That post was a long time coming. It sprung from the bullshit meanness among the posters and from my own current and former losses, as much as from an upwelling of compassion for disenchanted's situation.

Been there, done that, got the scars.

Dis - just to say I went through something similar.
Flew over to New York for Christmas, and my BF practically proposed on the plane. Not down on one knee, no ring, just said that when my divorce came through we should tie the knot.

Five days later I dropped him off at his house - we'd had a lousy flight home, we were both shattered and wanted to crash in our separate beds. He said he'd call me when he woke up. A couple of hours after I expected the call I got a text. Saying he was sorry, he was back with his ex girlfriend. Not to contact him as she was coming to pick him up.

Fool that I was, I went along with the silly rules and just moped. I should have screamed and shouted. I should have demanded an explanation. But I should have realised that this was always going to be a pattern with him, and that he had no interest in me as a long term partner, and once he realised he could get away with that sort of behaviour, it was always likely to happen again. And it did. Year after year.

Let her go.
Get closure any way you can - burn your bridges if it works for you.
If she's the right person for you, if she feels you are right for her, it's up to her to come back.

You might have forced her hand with your proposal. But it's shown you something you might have had a hard time realising otherwise.

So I allowed myself to call her. It was after she would've been done with work, so it was 50/50 if she'd answer. Ended up leaving a voicemail.

In under 23 seconds, an amalgamation of apologizing for the way things happened last weekend, letting her know I'm thinking of her, and saying "please let me know when you're ready to talk."

Dunno if it was a good idea or not, but in the big question of whether the door is open or not, I at least had my chance to say "Hey, there is a door."

thanks daff0dil and bigv for the longer responses and the reassuring words from others. Sundae Girl, I'm hoping your wrong, but thank you for looking out for the wellbeing of a stranger...time will tell.


And with that, I'm going to go distract myself for the long weekend so I don't sit here trying to rationalize why it'd be ok to call just one more time or whatever.

sometimes people say they want advice, when they really just want to tell you about their problems.

Heh, I was going to say...

You can give all the solicited advice you want, and experience is the hindsight that is 20/20, but until you go through it all yourself all the advice in the world is moot.

yeah...i wasn't complaining about it, btw....if you want to tell us about your difficulties, then cool. many people here will read it all and attempt to commiserate/console/feel you.

I'm not complaining about it either...just pointing out that life's experiences are unique for each of us, and we will all have different perspectives. My perspective is usually that of a hard-case, but what do I know? :)

I wouldn't be so sure he didn't weigh the input before making a decision how to proceed.
I'm glad he was able to make up his mind and do it.

He took action. Whether it was the correct one - who knows? But it was better than doing nothing at all. He has to proceed with his life now. The next move, if there is one, is entirely up to her.

What he said ...

Unless you have a homeless guy mooching off you :)
Which proves your point - it's very different when you are the one in the situation. Life is much less logical once emotions are involved.

Dis - let this draw a line under it, okay?
If she does not answer, don't read any more into it. Painful as it is - excrutiatingly, stomach-punchingly, got you sitting all night at the bar painful, I remember - this is still only temporary. Without further input from her it will very gradually hurt less. Which isn't what you want at all, but is the only consolation I can offer.

sundae girl: I hear you. Let's call it "Nobody gets all the answers they want". It ain't closure, it ain't clarity. But if this is the last interaction, at least I can tell myself that I tried to keep the lines of communication open. She doesn't answer, well, there's not much I can do about that. As it was said well by BigV earlier in the thread, I can't act for both of us.

You can pissed (drunk) with me n watch shitty movies if ya want?

I've felt this same thing. It's not a good indicator. If a relationship has an imminent expiration date, then you don't want to go down that path. That's starting out with one foot in the grave.

Zinngggggg... ;)

So true.

Good for you.

You're welcome. I wish you well.

This is an OUTSTANDING idea. I hope you don't get this feedback until midweek!

Interesting. Also entertaining. I find it odd that the people with the most "sound advice" are usually the ones from failed relationships.

Carry on.

Well, that would make sense, wouldn't it? I don't have much to add, since the last time I was dumped was in 1991.

Who you going to ask about recovering froma serious accident?
That's right, the chap with the scars.
Now you might not take safety advice from him, or even tips on a good night out, but he knows what he's talking about when it comes to cuts and bruises.

If LJ and Jinx were asking for advice (as if) mine would be noticeable by its absence.

Dis - do I get the feeling you are from this side of the pond? Or is it a holiday for the Merkins this weekend too?

All I remember is looking for love really really sucks. I wasted soooo much time doing that. Its either there or it isnt.