I strongly disagree. I think there IS something to see here. Several people have expressed their displeasure with a disruptive presence within the community, and ignoring the problem will only drive away the valued participants and leave those of you who chose not to fight in the company of the few problem posters.

You are right in that it is not a moderator's role to weed out the unpopular amongst us. However, it is the Admin's role to foster an environment that is conducive to maximum participation by all members. Or at least, should be in my opinion. When a few are persistently and apparently willfully ruining that environment, and are unwilling or unable to stop it.....they need to be stopped. Again, IMO.

If, after all of this, Ute decides that inaction is the best course, then so be it. And you'll have more of the same. Won't that be lovely.

I still think the conversation was worth having though. If nothing else I suspect it's drawn some people's attention to what they're doing in here :P

Yeah, I think just the talking about it helps.

Well you offered two courses of action, one impossible, one banning. I'm still trying to figure out which is the better option.

Ban lumberjim and the whole "problem" just goes away!

http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/usergroup_add

OR

http://www.vbulletin.com/docs/html/user_infractions

looks like there are somethings that can be done short of ousting people....

HM - I seriously doubt that you would feel the same if you agreed with his viewpoint.
SG - Hmm, perhaps. I think you may have nailed it.

I took myself out of the equation by putting them on ignore, but I will throw in my 2 cents here...

It seems to me, that over the past year+ any mention of anything negative about the current admin or their "team" gets hammered by the same clique. If there is anything other than praise for their "team" and what they do, then they get shitty.

The pigpile on themerc has been going on for a long time though and I find it very tiring. Redux has his ardent supporters. He comes in right after his posts with the same old tired policy line that one can get anywhere. They the others follow with the snide carping and adolescent worthlessness.
Merc, conversely has... well himself.

Many times I post something I found "interesting" or that I want to share with the cellar. I used to look for your (plural) opinions and viewpoints on that. Lately, all my posting in CE or Politics has been followed with a virtually immediate reply by him where he consistently states his party line or talking points. I can get that on the WH website, huffpo, msnbc... take your pick. My initial post was more often than not, already in response in response to that which was in the news - the party line. No need for him to regurgitate the same thing. The spiral continues. Dissension will not be allowed. You will be talked over. Irritating? Yup. Condescending attitude? yes. His opinion? Those who disagree are less intelligent and or lesser people W/E. I'm sorry, I'm getting off track.

I am not defending my actions. I am guilty of being an ass. Right now, I don't care anymore - I'm disgusted, both with myself and in general. I've been rereading a lot of what I have posted and I'm embarrassed. It is so contrary to the person I am IRL. I've even been discussing this with several current and past dwellars over the last few months. I've censored myself the best I can by putting them all on ignore.
For which I was again ridiculed. here. I also offered an option here. Aside from lookout, I was ignored.

I'm really not sure bans or infractions are the way to go tbh. Because two people can do exactly the same thing and that lead to entirely different responses. One may end up getting an infraction and then the other should also get an infraction but maybe doesn't really deserve it.

How do you actually measure what it is that is wrong here? Is it a personal attack? Well, if we can't all tell each other to fuck off, then really it takes something away from us as a group I feel. Is it a style of argument? Well, again, some people use a style and I find it abrasive and unpleasant, whilst others can say exactly the same thing and somehow it doesn't have the same sting.

I don't think my reading of the situation has anything to do with sharing Redux's political views at all. I just think it is unfair to single him out. I also don;t think it's fair to single Classic out. I don't think he does anything particularly wrong. If you actually look at any one of these discussions it is really very difficult to say who is in th wrong ( in terms of style not substance). But I find Merc's particular manner of arguing in political matters very annoying and offputting. There are others (I am not going to start naming names, lets not add to this any further ;p) who have the opposite political views to Merc that I find equally annoying and frustrating.

ban your face!

Here's a quater, call-------

ban your ƒuckin cock you fat sh!t for brains

If lumberjim and Flint get each other banned, that'll leave jinx and Pooka for me. Eureka! I've hit the MILF mother lode.

I demand that you ban this motherƒucker!!!1

That brings to mind grim images of breastmilk shooting out of control for some reason...

Classic - I only put that option in there in the interest of total honesty.
My liking for Dwellars is not based on political ideals - Dana and I share an ideology (to an extent) but most people here are to the right of me and I adore them.
I will admit Merc's opinions have ticked me off in the past. Purely his opinions. But I've had much more of a problem with his responses. Until yes, I started to avoid any thread with that kind of conflict in it in case I was drawn to make sniping remarks myself.

I think the Cellar would be damaged far more by censorship than it is by petty arguments. If we are a community, really a community, we should be able to bring pressure to bear without resorting to strong-arm moderation. Isn't that what people say the Muslim community should be doing? (Okay, horrible comparison :)) I value free speech. And that's your (plural) fault. Let's work this out ourselves.

I wouldn't feel identical. Being irritated that a troll agrees with me is different from a troll I disagree with. Maybe worse.

Good

Fucking

God.

you should have posted :

:corn:

I would like to say that many of the people discussed here have been especially kind and/or helpful to me, personally. Mostly because I deliberately do not engage their rant button.

But I really don't know how to manage the political discussions without making everybody crazy. IMO, it's the nature of the beast, which is why I don't usually participate either here or in real life.

Based on my experience in other fora, I probably view moderators differently so I'll quite suggesting that.

Wait what? G0d was in pr0n?

I like your discussions. You have good questions and ideas. When it gets heated you withdraw. I can respect your reasons for doing so.

it's not a popular stance here, but maybe we could use a bit more of it in the political discussion threads.

Most of the time, you're not going to change the other people's viewpoints anyway, so--state your viewpoint, discuss it, but don't keep beating at it and inflating the passions of the participants past the point of reason.

I'd like to know if Merc and Redux have any of this same feeling. Do either of you feel at all culpable, or embarrassed that there is this type of backlash attributed to your behavior? Will you make any attempt to modify your posting habits?

Or is this seen as unfair persecution and infringement upon your rights to freedom of speech?

Hmmmm.... I will have to think about that for a bit.

Culpable...sure. I said as much repeatedly. Embarrassed? Only to the extent that I should have let go of some discussions sooner rather than later and I will keep that in mind....and one set of comments went too far and, as I said, was inappropriate. With regard to most of my posts, not particularly embarrassed at all.

I agree with what both Dana and Jinx posted recently. It was helpful to hear what most had to say and I take it seriously. On the other hand, I got a good laugh out of a few of the others.

Yes and no.

The angst and double standard is disturbing by those of specific political leanings is quite disturbing, as a measure of setting the benchmark for normalcy and acceptable posting. On one hand if you agree with a liberal point of view I am the enemy, if you have any view contrary, I am the enemy. That is quite disturbing.

Let me mull it over.

In the end, as it seems the overwhelming feeling is that I am "troll", not just a person with contraray opinions, who is not willing to buy into the party propaganda, is also quite disturbing.

Well part of it is your style, which is dismissive without any further real dialogue. I was disappointed when you did not accept a moderated discussion.

I fully understand your point but I just couldn't see the value in having a discussion with a person that I disagree with on so many levels. I believe Redux is a plant whose only purpose is to disrupt and put out the Demoncratic point of view. Very little will be and has been gleemed from any exchange of views other than White House talking points and propaganda. If you look at the websites that support the Dems nearly everthing he says is right out of a playbook.... so what is the point?

I do not expect to change his mind and he should not expect to change mine. He is a tool of the Demoncrats, put here to expouse the propaganda of the Demoncrats. I hate all of them. Republickins and Demoncrats alike, it just so happens the Dems are in charge and have been for the last 4 years, so they get the blame and responsibility for all our ills. Tough shit, sucks to be in charge....

I fully accept my responsibility but please note:

!. I contribute to the whole site.

2. I confine my issues to the current events and politics website and I have been rightly called out for transgressions which poured over to other threads, and I immediately stopped the discussion, which includes chat.

3. I have confined my angst to one other poster whom I believe is a political hack.

so even here, in this thread, you can't help it. you need to sit a few plays out and reflect, bub.

For the record, I am not a plant or "put" here by anyone...nor do I have any affiliation with the Obama administration, the DNC or the Democratic party, other than being a registered Democrat.

UT...I would be happy to have a moderated discussion on posting styles if you think that would be helpful.

Merc, your advantage in political threads is that you're more of a real person in non-political threads. You're a real person, compared to Redux, because none of us get a sense of who he is in real life.

assuming he is a he, and not a she

I will fully accept a temp ban until after the Nov elections if Redux is also banned for the same period of time.

It is June 19th. If you all want to be rid of me, make it equal. And ban us both until Jan 1. 2011

UT....I dont feel it is necessary to share my personal life, nor should it be, in order to contribute to discussions...If I do want to share, it will most likely be in a PM....but its your house.

I'll be happy share a bit about my professional life if that would be helpful. :)

I support this ban if we still get to kick Shawnee's butt when she pops her head into any of the political threads. ;)

I, for one, refuse to place any merit on your professional experience BECAUSE you are so adamant about remaining anon. you can't have your cake and eat it too.

This made me think. I started this thread as a way of resolving a conflict.

So, what do I want the outcome to be? specifically, and generally.

Generally first:

1. I want the cellar to have a politics forum that facilitates the rational and respectful discussion of 'How humans control the powers that control them'

2. I want a Current Events forum that allows us all to 'Help understand the world by talking about things happening in it'

3. I want to be proud of my friends.

and then, Specifically:

1. I don't want to ban anyone....not even temporarily. I think that the ban hammer is a failure of the community to enfold and encourage the acceptance of all of our unique and individual brothers and sisters to this family.

2. I want TheMercenary, Redux, Classic, Spex, UG, Radar, UT, Shawnee, jinx, griff, Pie, and all y'all sisterfuckers to be more careful to respect each other's political beliefs. Treat it like a religion if it helps you to keep it in context. If you think about it, politics and religion are quite similar. As religions fall away, and Gods lose their power, they are incrementally replaced by political parties, and idealogies. So show the same respect you would if you were discussing religion with a Jew, or a Christian, or a Muslim, Hindu, Budhist, etc.

3. (someone take it from here....I've got to get to bed....

I participate on another board (that one with the horrifying avatar and signature problem) that has two politics forae. One regular one, and one where people don't have to pretend to be civil in their discussions. You have to request an admin to invite you to the gloves-off politics forum.

The converse of your example was suggested before in the "Let's Get Rid of the Politics Forum" thread.. There were no takers among either the general membership or the administration. That's why we're back here with this issue now; unless, the issue was never about effective communication in the first place and was actually about control by some people over behaviors by others [in the name of the general welfare]. "Patriotism, the last refuge of a scoundrel."

If someone's going to create a separate gloves off forum here, why limit it to politics? If it's worth while doing, it's worth while doing well and you've been given an option that would make it so.

I suggest we now let this issue lie for a while. Let's see if having aired the problem and discussed it as a group, the main protagonists change their behaviour.

That's what we did last time: it lasted less than four months. History has already repeated itself with your approach. Lead, follow; or, get out of the way. :eyebrow:

Granted, I do have to sometimes wade through a lot of crap (or carp) to get to any real information on some threads. That is, however, a consequence of this being a BBS. If I want true who/what/where journalism, I'll go to a news site.

Sometimes reading/listening to how people tell a story is almost as important as the story itself. And sometimes I am surprised by a position held by some of the people mentioned here or by their animosity towards an opposing opinion.

If someone wants to be the next Glenn Beck or Rachel Maddow and have a rant, that's their choice. I can apply my filter and skim or ignore without any electronic aids. I do sometimes wish we had a temporary ignore filter on threads so that I could exclude people just during a single view. Still, if I have to chose freedom over aggravation, freedom will always win.

Right here is you missing the whole point of the Cellar.


Unfortunately, your style makes that conclusion almost as logical as it is paranoid. You do stick to the talking points which is why the lefties stick with you. Because we don't know you, those of us on the center/right just assume you're recycling the info from the administration emails rather than digesting information and drawing your own conclusions.

To me personally, the complete loss of the politics forum has been a bummer. I need to read real peoples reactions to events to sort out where we're headed. Right now we're getting a sliver of the story from two highly partisan folks who give no indication that they care about this community or the people in it. I have not helped the situation by popping off on each of you when my annoyance over the nonsense gets too intense. I consider Shawnee and Classic to be casualties of this war. They each want to come in on the "right" side but because it isn't actually a discussion nuance is despised.

I'd like to see a separate Politics for Asshats forum that everyone can post in and our two offenders are limited to.

Interesting. I didn't realize I was part of the problem. I will try to keep that in mind.

i knew very well that the politics forum would not be removed, sexo. That thread was a dramady.

that is a list of people that are oft involved in the politics forum. I didn't want to keep harping on the same 3 or 4 people.

Why am I not in that list? Why am I always left out *cries* I wanna be a problem too *sulks*

I think LJ invoked the key word: RESPECT.

LJ is ascared of you. ;)

OK fine...but can I pick "spanking" instead? :p:

I withdraw my suggestion that name-calling type posts be reported to, and deleted by mods.
There seems to be a consensus that name calling is childish. Can you all bear this in mind, and
a) refrain from doing it, and/or
b) refrain from reacting if someone does it to you?

:D

Sure, bitch.

I'm kidding! I kid! Someone was going to do it!

:)

Oh get the ƒuck over yourself...are you ƒucking kidding me??? This is truly one of the biggest "WTF" posts I have ever read anywhere on the internet. This person has clearly lost all sense of context. Redux: NOBODY cares about your pointless scribblings on some backwater message board in the outer spiral arm of the vast interwebz. Everything posted on this board is DUST IN THE WIND. We, and I speak for all of us (correct me if I am wrong), enjoy posting here as a way of interacting with other human beings.

Right on, cuntface.

Hey fuckface, if you want to type the word fuck then type the word fuck. Quit dancing all around the word. Do you think you're special because your little f is a little different than everyone else's little f? Fucking elitist.

And Jebus GAWD I hope you're kidding too.





:D

You're all cunts.

Tagline.

But one more thing, now that this rather therapeutic thread has had us talk some of the stuff out: I know Redux a little. I have heard that if I knew merc better I would see that side of him I've heard about. If you knew Redux better you might be more receptive to his posts, sure.

But that's up to him. I'm an open book, you all know that, but still there have been situations where someone is tugging a little too hard. I shut right down on that stuff.

Can it be that some people take longer to "get to know" people in a personal way? This is a poster's interests, surely we don't think we should dictate what that person is and is not willing to give...and when?

We should be able to accept this poster as this poster is...or talk to other posters with whom we share the things we like to share.

Hey, cuntƒuck--don't attribute that quote to me. That would ruin my image.

I always assume that some people my have profanity filtering on their internet connection at work. I don't want to be the one who gets Cellar content blocked. So when I type ƒuck I do the "F" as Alt+0131 (hold down the Alt key and type 0131 on the numeric keypad).

That's fine Shaw, but like Jim said, "you can't have it both ways". Ie. you can't be an annon political commentator and expect to have the same interactions with the people here as the people here. There's no human aspect to fall back on.