Not to worry. The TSA is gradually taking care of that.

So let's assume this is just a nutjob with a gun.

How in the hell did he get a gun?

I think if we want to continue allowing responsible people to own guns, then we've got to be much better at keeping guns out of the hands of the unstable.

It's interesting that while the Congresswoman advocated (according to reports) concealed carry in a State that permits it, neither the Congresswoman nor anyone in her entourage appears to have availed themselves of this means of protecting themselves; or, their constituency! While the element of surprise would have still kept the Congresswoman from being saved from harm, the others who were injured and killed might have been spared if someone, anyone, had been in a viable position to respond to a lethal threat without having to wait for the perpetrator to stop and reload.

Everyone knows that such public gatherings enhance the targetability of those attending; so, it appears that the Congresswoman simply didn't consider personnel security to be her duty even though she had the right to own it. If she and her entourage had been known to exercise that right, this incident might not have occurred. I suppose it's like when people who have the right to vote just don't want to bother with getting out and voting; or, otherwise rationalize leaving the outcome to others. They just don't consider it to be their civic duty.

So people who don't carry guns are bad citizens?

The price of the freedom of gun ownership is that occasionally somebody gets one who is mentally unfit.

Just because you allow that some may have rights to carry, doesn't mean you want to be one of those people.

But we always fall back on that: if someone had a gun it would have been much less worse! Everyone, and Annie, GET YOUR GUN.

I contend that the nutjob wouldn't have hurt so many people if nutjob had access to only sticks and rocks. :cool:

More than occasionally, prolly.

I admire your skill with rhetorical questions.

This is a traditional posit in such situations.

But it's just as easy to suggest that if one or several people start firing,
the neither the crowd nor the authorities will know
the good guys from the bad... a circular firing squad.

That's like saying that plainclothes law enforcement officers (e.g. city, county, state, federal - incl. Sec. Svc.) who happen to be on the scene when a politician is attacked shouldn't intervene; because, there may be more than one of them and they might all shoot each other. Absurd. It's the responsibility of each shooter to verify the legitimacy of a target as well as the risk to others before pulling the trigger and there are many ways to separate friend from foe. There are also many non-LE people I would trust to do a better job of that than many LE officers.

While there is a grain of truth to this, what I actually hear is an excuse to do no better than we have done.

I notice you didn't answer the question.

Of course not: that's the prominent mentality. The right to gun ownership is so innate that to have to think of ways to make it safer for all is ludicrous. "You can worry about crazies and their rampant access to guns when I lift a cold dead finger to do anything about it."

No, it's NOT like saying anything of the sort.
Plainclothes, or any other LE authority, have a badge or some ID to display.

Except as you sort of said, yourself, when they do something stupid !
If LE can't always get it right, how to expect the CCL's to do so.

I hesitated to use the phrase "Polish firing squad" in my first reply,
but a quick Google search turned up this from 2005.
There's a bit of tongue-in-cheek, the video link doesn't work,
and it is the LA Police Dept !
Nevertheless:

Polish Firing Squad

<snip>

There is no psychological test for gun ownership because that would be unthinkable. At some point in time there will be enough genetic markers found for schizophrenia that it can be tested for with a cheek swab. Until the time as such a test is affordable, we will have to wait.

I'm really ambivalent about the gun issue, but I thought this was relevant.

I addressed a current event about specific people in a particular situation. You tried to extrapolate that into a gross generality that's better suited to a pro-gun VS anti-gun thread the likes of which have already been done here ad nauseum. You simply weren't astute enough to realize that I'm not going to debate that here.

Anybody can buy a stinkin' badge. Do you really think they're going to take the time to authenticate each other's credentials while under fire?

I think you're projecting your own inabilities to process relevant information under such circumstances, to make timely and accurate judgment calls, on others. That's not an uncommon trait in the elderly.

You're not really addressing his concern. I thought the same thing as Lamp.

(edited: I gotta stop pushing the reply button so quickly)

[the Doctor] I'm so sorry. [/the Doctor]

:facepalm:

Ouch !
Ouch !
Double Ouch!

Sorry sexobon. Us elderly do have our faults.
Guess I'll have to stay on the "What's making you happy today" thread. :biggrin:

I'm sorry footfootfoot, I just can't do it. Even with an insult to respond to.

What's wrong with me?

:shotgun: ... Arrrghhh, you got me Lamp. Give my boots to glatt and bury me in Nothingland. It'd be nice if ME would shed a tear and Pico didn't piss on my grave (and vice versa).

I see the problem with guns, is the same as with cars, most of the people that have them don't know how to handle them properly. Lack of knowledge, training and practice, under the assumption they are competent until they prove otherwise.

Could you explain it to me using a metaphor involving a four wheel drive being driven by tw?

glatt accurately described what you posted. They deserved to be harmed because they were not packing. That was your claim.

Employees at Wal-mart refused to sell him ammunition because they considered him that dangerous. It was that obvious. Wal-mart employees may have been sued for not making the sale. But refused to do so anyway.

Unfortunately, he just kept going to Wal-Marts until he found one that would sell him the ammo.

I haven't read the whole thread, so forgive me if this is repeating anything someone else has said:

What is the difference between the revolutionary violent rhetoric in those banners and the banners being waved in London by muslims protesting against the Dutch cartoons?

So, public figures using violent allegory to rouse their supporters to heights of political passion is just the exercising of rights to free expression, but the victim in an assassination attempt is irresponsible for not carrying a firearm?

Forgive me for my bluntness but that really sounds off kilter to me. I also really don;t see how you can draw any kind of equivalence between responsibly taking part in the democratic process through voting, and carrying a weapon.

Are the Imams preaching hate and violence in the mosques? You may not see it. But that is what Limbaugh, Hannity, Fox News, et al are preaching. Limbaugh's routine attacks on Hillary in the 1990s left me surprised that gunmen were not waiting for her in many states. The hate promoted by Fox News easily matches and probably exceeds that broadcast by early 1960s Radio Moscow. Hate is also why Colin Powell’s wife terminated his presidential ambitions.

That AZ Sherriff was right on the money. He was talking about the same hate routinely preached by Likud to get Rabin assassinated. They got what they wanted. Same attitude is preached by our wackos.

Classicman intentionally tried to post my personal information in order to encourage harm to me. If you did not know it, he was stopped by (I believe) UT. Why? I repeatedly accuse him of promoting hate and extremism. So emotions replaced logic. Same has become so common in the last 15 years that, well, that attitude even inspired Timothy McVeigh. They did not tell him what to do. Just encouraged the attitude. Promoting hate is how extremists get empowered. Why Christine O’Donnell set records for campaign contributions.

So, you tell me. Are the Imams promoting hate in mosques? That is where a problem most likely lies if it exists. Is what you see on the street a symptom of a dangerous source? Or just isolated venting overplayed by the local gossip?

Your argument is ridiculous. There are people being treated for schizophrenia right now. How were those people diagnosed? Do you think their doctors should wait for a genetic test?

If the Washington Times can already predict that the shooter is a nutcase, then the state could have known at the time he bought the gun.

More like, why are you addressing 3 foot?

And, don't throw self defeating statements to the wind.

You're just a damn nice guy.

Total Lie - I spoke up because you made uncalled for, unfounded accusations of another posters wife being a "gonorrhea dripping whore." No one else was going to call you out for your bullshit, so I did.

And for your information, after you were banned for your emotional metdown, I contacted a mod and asked them to reconsider out of pity for your sorry existence of a life. Stick that in your Honda and drive it straight up your fat ass. (Too bad it isn't a 4WD)

FWIW - I didn't need to be stopped because I don't know who you are, nor do I want to.
Just so we are all clear on the facts, not simply your emotional delusions of reality.

Shit got real

So, given that guns are here to stay, perhaps we should have gun-ed in school? And no, I'm not being facetious. Maybe then the non-gun-people would be less scared, the pro-gun-people would be less gung-ho and everyone would have a chance of handling weapons better in a crisis. just like driver's ed.

Driver's Ed is not a part of the curriculum in the UK, but cars are not such a big part of life. Having lived here a while, shocked as i still am about how young they can drive, I appreciate that it's considered a universal skill that should be part of schooling in many places. Maybe we should afford guns the same treatment.

This is the kind of petty shit that made me realize the cellar isn't what it was. Maybe it is, but it certainly isn't the kind of place i need to spend the kind of time i once did. the fact statements are accepted and/or ignored says a lot about the evolution of the cellar. the issues don't matter so long as we can shit on a few people and regurgitate our well known position pieces, right?

you got it about right , seems so anyway

See I said this thread belonged in Politics ;)

BTW what a mug shot this guy has! YIKES! :eek:

http://www.globalpost.com/sites/defa...er_mugshot.jpg

Not worthy of politics.

Where's the bitching/sniping forum when you need it?

Weren't some of the victims elderly? And one nine?

To my mind there are major conceptual differences.
The US demonstrators are protesting their government,
while the Muslims are defending their religious faith.

They both invoke images of blood and violence because, for each,
their beliefs are absolute... and not to be compromised.

It seems in politics that we in the US tend to impose a technical and political view
on to others when theirs is first a religion and then a way of governing.

So between Shite and Sunni, their first differences are religious,
but the former superimpose religion on government,
while the latter tend to more independent government.

If they tried to include teaching about guns, even in say a science class, half the parents would have a shitfit.
I'd like to see more rigorous qualifications for carry permits. Locally, they have started to require a sign off by a certified range instructor, but that varies by jurisdiction.

As for driver's ed in school, when I took it, it was a joke, mostly memorizing the answers for the exam. I doubt it's gotten any better, and many schools have dropped it because of budgets.

The banners are selected from all the protests everywhere over time. The people holding them are on the fringe of their groups rather than the mainstream.

You think the people waving banners calling for the murder of the cartoonist were 'mainstream'?

Of their particular group.

ahhh sorry. Yes, ok, I'd go with that.

Schizophrenics are diagnosed by psychiatrists. It is unthinkable to put every gun applicant through psychiatric testing. It would also be highly ineffective. Schizophrenics are normal until the illness shows up, often around Loughner's age. The only way to diagnose its eventual likelihood would be through genetic testing.

By the way, you won't read that Loughner is Schizophrenic anywhere but here. News won't say it because it's not an official diagnosis. Doctors won't publicly speculate, because they won't diagnose without personally seeing the patient. And even if he was diagnosed, that information would be protected by healthcare privacy laws. I'm saying it on the basis of stories from fellow students and teachers at his junior college, and his YouTube videos.

We just got an email from Student/Academic support services, about how to proceed with troubled students. This Loughner guy was kicked out of community college for behavioral issues.

If you've been kicked out of community college for behavioral issues, methinks you have some monumental behavioral issues. Surely these behaviors don't exist in a vacuum. But we can't use that sort of common sense, it tramps all over our FREEDOMS (say that word loudly and pound your chest as you say it.)

If only the 9 year old girl had been packin'. :(

Should our tactic be reactivity, so that only one woman gets shot in the head (perhaps) and the shooter gets a hundred bullets in him from the standers-by, or should our tactic be proactivity, so that nobody gets shot in the first place?

Disclaimer: I do not think that we can stop all gun violence, but I think that, as a society, we can do a better job.

Side note: the 9 year old girl was the granddaughter of Dallas Green, Manager of the Phillies when they won the world series in 1980.

From the Washington Times story I linked.

So are you saying that only a psychiatrist could tell that this guy was not stable? I bet his neighbors wondered about him. I bet if you interviewed neighbors and co-workers, you'd get a picture.

His friends aquaintances, former classmates (he didn't have cow orkers), and neighbors, have been all over the news. They all said he was nuts... make that acted nuts, but that's not illegal.

From bits and pieces in the press, he was a loner. He had plans for years. But even locked them in a safe. Apparently said nothing to anyone.

It becomes a problem of what is your responsibility verses what will only get you sued. A question we should all have answered years ago. And still is not discussed or publically defined.

He scared many people in his math class. Was (as best I can tell) expelled. Should have been known to those that he obviously needed help. But this is again what the AZ Sheriff noted. We don't help the mentally deficient. We put them back on the streets. Another problem that has not been addressed.

Surprising though. He owned (or rented) a house. He must have had income. So much of this story is not told. Too little for anyone to make conclusions.

How obvious was Hinckley a threat to Reagan. As best I can tell, even that question was never answered.

Student loan and Pell grant overages, probably. :cool:

This is an interesting question.

I see homeless guys having conversations with nobody there, and sometimes they are laughing heartily with or passionately yelling at these invisible people. They are clearly mentally ill. It's not a secret. They are right out in the open. Thousands of people each day walk right past them.

So am I supposed to do anything about them? Is there a nutjob hot line I'm supposed to call?

Again, he was kicked out of COMMUNITY COLLEGE for behavioral issues. Do you know how bad you gotta be to get kicked out of CC? We're not talking the guy in the weird hat, the student who talks to himself, the guy who eats insects on his smoke break, we're talking threatening harm and intimidating people. Otherwise, we got a program for your weird ass, we want you to succeed! Eat your bugs man, we're all about diversity! We applaud you! Next week the cafe is doing a feature on bug casseroles and lizard dishes. We want you to feel at home.

But threatening people and creating an unsafe environment, that will get you kicked out of CC.

I did not think schizophrenics as a rule were known for violent behavior towards others.