Really, Elspode. Ask for the movies that you want back.

For sure. this is the straightest path to a fair outcome.

Only *I* can make myself feel like a doormat. I don't plan to do so.

But you'd be a bathmat to sneak a peek.;)

hahahahahahaha *CHOKECOUGHCOUGHCOUGHACK*... you dog, you.

Ahhhahah, Bruce. Wisdom, straight talking and a little mischief. Hang out here more often, will you?

A doormat by any other name would smell as stinky.

i sure am glad i wasn't taking a sip of beer and reading this!

When have you ever "sipped" beer?;)

Yeah, from what I hear he'd need to have his laptop taped to the ceiling to read while drinking beer.

I just noticed that when I posted my new address, I fucked up. So, once again, for anyone keeping score:

11412 E 77th Terrace
Raytown, MO 64138

Yup...this time, it is correct.

Leslie (TF) has been busting her hump every day at the house while I'm at work. Looks like we're just a couple of evenings away from being essentially done. Then, I just have a fish tank to get rid of, and then the DAV gets to haul off the remains. A small amount of cleaning and minor patch up will follow, and then...maybe someone will buy it.

Progress!

just found this ,

Excellent, Zippy. :thumb:

I gotta be honest. I AM offended. What is insane to You is perfectly suited to Me.... Isn't that just reiterating that I'm insane by Your definition? And you say that you're just 'illustrating the breadth of my POV' after stating that it was limited in the previous reply? which is it? just confused... not really bothered. Seems like maybe you're just wriggling because I took exception to what you said to me.

I honestly don't see anything insane about what I said to you there. Or maybe you were just saying that I'm insane in a general way... not specifically about what I said? I know your opinion of me isn't very high..just based on things you've said over the years, but I spent about an hour composing that post, thinking about your situation, and trying to empathize with you. I was not expecting the response to be dismissive and insulting.

I know you have much larger issues to occupy your mind, but I thought I should let you know that this was sticking with me. I'd like to think you intended no offense, and it's just a matter of you thinking I'm a crazy jerk.

I don't really know why that bothers me. I mean.... I knew you thought I was a jerk, but the insane thing? I have to disagree. I'll cop to the jerk part. I know I have been, so I'll own that.

Anyway... I still hope you get through this as easily as possible.

I didn't see anything that would make me think 'insane' in that post either. I thought it was a nice viewpoint from someone who's been there, in the not so distant past. I really don't know why the word is there, but I don't think it was meant maliciously. It was just an odd choice. For what it's worth.

I do hope things are starting to feel better for you, spode.

Jim's was a good post and I didn't think anything about it was insane. But I also assumed that 'splode's using that choice of words was kind of like Bill Murray jovially addressing someone as a "crazy kid" or something like that.

But I hesitate to jump into this because you're both adults who can work this out yourself. So shut up and hug. :)

Jim, reading back through it, I think it was just a drunkenly poor choice of a word. Perhaps it would have been better to say that what you'd written was both on target yet wildly off. Sure, I've mulled over some self-recrimination, but I've pretty much considered it and let it go. The collapse of things was a mutual event, not my fault and only mine, so I'm no more or less culpable than she is.

You are correct...no one, including me, knows why the fuck she chose to exit the way she did. I don't think it's because she's evil. I think it's because she's chickenshit, and that was the quickest way to get out of having to deal with me over the collapse of our finances and household. She herself has compared it to "ripping off a bandaid", stating that it would have been much more painful and hard on both of us to try and gradually get our shit separated and go our separate ways with a plan. I can sort of see that, but I still don't think it justifies the fucking shock I got, or justifies the fact that there are so many things that we fucked up together than I will now have to unfuck on my own, since she's copped out, or justifies the total lack of input I got on how things were divided, etc, etc. It's kinda like she's pissed on the toilet seat and left it wet, knowing I'd have to sit on it.

Far be it from me to tell someone they're insane, though.

Met with Selene tonight for the first time since her departure. Compared to her, I think I'm at least in a better emotional place. We both have some tough roads ahead of us, but I'm mostly moved in with someone who loves me and who has been busting her ass on my behalf, so I feel rather blessed, all things considered.

Selene and I seem to have arrived at some mutual agreement on how to divide the debts. Basically, I'll get them all except her student loan debt, but I'll be able to either pay them off, or get them massively reduced or eliminated through the inevitable bankruptcy.

And so it goes.

Why do you get all the debt, 'spode? How do you "mutually agree" for you to get all the debt accumulated during your relationship.

Im still pissy on your behalf, whether its what you want or not.

I do love the fact that you have a strong women like TF in your corner and wonderful friends.

I get all the debt...except $55k in student loans. :-)

And student loans are non-dischargeable, so I think he has the better end of the deal, here.

Even *she* said that, and I am inclined to agree.

Why?

Still her student loans are *HERS* alone. That wouldn't be considered mutual debt unless you signed off on them (I believe)
That shouldn't even be on the table.
Idealistically it should be 1/2 of whatever debt the two of you accrued together/2.

Jus sayin.

I agree with classic. I'd also be deducting the money you paid her in the last few months for rent and utilities which she apparently embezzled.

But if, as you say, bankruptcy is inevitable, #$%& it, take on all dischargable debt and scuttle the lot.

It just really sucks that you have to go through this Els. I really hope that when the dust settles you really are in a better place emotionally, physically and financially.

love.

xx

I think it might come under the "the loans allowed her to get the job which allowed her to contribute to the lifestyle to which 'Spode had become accustomed, Your Honor" argument. Not sure, though.

'Spode, who owns the house? Will there be a profit from its sale?

Student loans and bankruptcy:


Article here for more info:

http://www.studentloanborrowerassist...rg/bankruptcy/

:(

morning frown face 'cause, if she asked you, spode, to cut your wrists too, seems like you'd comply. Could be just morning brain fog though.

Maybe I shouldn't be thinking out loud.

At least half of her student loan debt was accrued during our marriage, and a great deal of that money went towards mutual expenses. Legally, can I get away with it? Sure...but I'm moral, not legal.

I'm sure that she probably kept some of my bill money to fund her exit. She paid deposit on an apartment, painted it (I know, right?), bought a couple of odds and ends items for it, although she's got more shit than will ever fit in it, and paid her lawyer. However, her grandmother has been funding the shortfall for our household for a few months now, and also paid the retainer for the lawyer. We have been chronically behind on our debts for...well...years. I have no reason to believe the she embezzled anything. We didn't have much to begin with.

The ultimate goal is to simply make the sixteen years of our union come out equitably. So far, I haven't agreed to anything that I don't find reasonable by my own dead reckoning. No, I would NOT cut my wrists if she asked me to. If I was a dickhead, I'd get a lawyer, and fight her tooth and nail for every dime, and could probably come out a lot better. That might be legal, but it wouldn't be fair. It wouldn't be moral.

Money comes and goes, but Karma is forever.

In my experience, fair is a good goal. And your dead reckoning is the best gauge of this. Also, there's no rule that says it needs to come out to the same number to four significant digits. Fair's fair, you'll know it when you see it.

I don't agree about the lawyer part though. Keep in mind, her lawyer IS WORKING FOR HER, NOT FOR YOU. Do not lose sight of this fact. However, retaining your own lawyer for some hot lawyer on lawyer action, definitely doubles (or more) your expenses, and let's face it, your payments to the lawyer(s) come right off the top of your resources. There's a valid argument for avoiding them (at all costs, nyuk nyuk nyuk).

You will be living with your own decision forever, those are the ones you have to make sure you're making well. You are a smart man, a good man. You can trust yourself.

If she could do this, we would, of course, renegotiate the rest of our debt. I'll provide this info to her. Thanks! Even if this wasn't your intent. :)

Spexx, yes, that would fit. Not so much extravagant, just money spent to keep it all rolling. It really is an honest claim.

No, no profit likely. We paid $165k about 30 seconds before the bubble burst. If it short sold for $130k, I'd be blissful, in this market. Fuck, I'd be blissful if it sold at all.

You are a good man spode. You have a big heart.

I understand, els.

I pretty much walked away, and left most everything behind. I didn't fight for the house or any of that stuff. People thought I was batty but I couldn't see it. A marriage with a best friend was ending, and I wanted as little pain as possible. I got my car, and my stuff.

I didn't really want the house anyway. He's still living there and has a roomie and I'm glad he's been able to hold onto it.

(Of course, who woulda thunk that my best friend, years later, would buy the house across the street!) :)

'course, if we'd still been living in the amazing apartment at the biggest mansion in town (rented) I would have stayed there in a heartbeat.

We make choices on what's best for us, each individual. What was best for me was to just let it all go. Whether that was wise on my part (not putting my already tentative grasp on mental health on the line) or really stupid (too wimpy to go through it all) it doesn't matter. End result the same.

I'm glad that SL info might be helpful. ;)

Ditto.

I even moved to a different city so that he could keep all our friends without any conflict and didn't worry about bumping into me.
Although that was also partly to get away from all the disapproval too.

I remember when me and J split. He was going to leave Halifax and move to London to start again. I persuaded him not to. The idea of him alone in a city that makes even the slightest isolation feel critical horrified me.

Glad i did. I was fucking determined we weren't losing the friendship.

Dana, keeping our friendship is a goal of mine. I don't know if it is realistic, and I have no real way of knowing if it is as big a deal to her as it is to me. She has repeatedly claimed that it is, but it remains to be seen. Actions speak louder than words.

She's awfully used to having me at her beck and call. I'm not real sure how she's going to handle me doing what I *want* to do where she is concerned as opposed to what I feel *obligated* to do.

I agree 100%. So far, based upon the way this was handled, it doesn't look good from here.

Perth and I had that same goal in mind when we split. And we still are friends after almost 8 years. I chat with him almost every other day or so. So, I know it is attainable. It takes a lot of forgiveness on both sides. Keep your chin up, man. You'll get through it.

I have forgiven, but not forgotten. I'm not that big a person yet.

DUDE trust me on this one. i let my exwife handle the divorce back in 03 and lemme tell ya. yeah i got to keep the house but i got truly phucked otherwise. over 50k worth of credit card debt we accrued together. if i could do it again i'd of ponied up the cash for my lawyer.

Sorry, 'spode. I'll lay off from now on.

I'm like infi and Sundae, I walked away with nothing from 2 long term, deeply tangled relationships and it took me sooooo long to get back to where I should have been. Furniture, assets etc...the material stuff.

I'm more "me" aware now, which is why I wont let anyone get me in that situation again and that was colouring my posts.

These things are never even and never fair, youre a good hearted man but you arent an idiot - so I trust your judgement and although I dont trust Selene not to fuck you over (again), I trust you know her better than I and that you know what sits right with you.

Apologies xx

No apologies necessary from anyone. I'm here telling about all this because I *want* the varying viewpoints from my Cellar family. My POV is slanted. Independent input is always valuable in keeping my perspective. *I* apologize for being absent for so long, and only popping back up when I've got some self-pitying to do.

Well :eyebrow:? Where is it :eyebrow::eyebrow:? I've yet to see any self-pitying from you!! Buck UP!

I was pretty lucky when I split from J. Having lived at Mum's for nigh on two years looking for a house to rent, when I did find one that would accept my lousy credit rating and a fully grown bearded collie, J and my bro, who were still business partners, basically furnished my house for me.

As J put it, when we had first split we'd been way broke, and he wasn't able to see me right at the time.

I just wish I'd had more support and understanding from friends and family.
Everyone was angry with me for leaving, and let me know about it.
I think they were also embarrassed at having been to our wedding and celebrated us as the perfect couple and now I was letting them down.

I'd have loved to stay in contact with J. I loved him very much as a friend.
I was too quick to run away in shame rather than face out the disapproval.
I did everything I could to make sure he was okay financially, so as his life collapsed around him he did not have money problems too.

I still have dreams where we've got back together again and it's just not working. I think "What am I going to do?! I can't stay but there's no way I could leave him AGAIN!"
Selene's behaviour will have consequences.
Good luck to her with that.

Oh the actual break up with me and J was pretty messy. The immediate split, was horrible, and many mistakes were made. At one point I did go back. And it was awful having to say actually, ye know what,this really isn't going to work.

I don't know if we'd have been able to pull off the staying friends bit had Martin and J not still been in business together, and me still connected with the company. It kind of forced a degree of contact initially.

Zactly.