Um, Dr Dana, you're hardly a normal person. ;)
Aren't the unisex toilets one at a time?

Cubicles are one at a time, unless you're in Cinderella Rockafellas in Dunstable at 02.00....
But the actual toilets are unisex. Unless you are an actual preevert then the most exciting thing you get to see is someone washing their nekkid hands.

Many places with unisex toilets have the same sort of door-free entry as swimming pool changing rooms. You have to go round the corner so there's no direct line of sight but no germy door either.

"Family" restrooms, as a third option in addition to the standard men's & women's, are also becoming more popular. Most of the time they are single-use, in a room big enough for a stroller and a bench.

Yes, I've seem them, they usually have a baby changing facility. Mom and Dad can both go while handing the kids back and forth.

The future looks good, Pam... :D

A new book.
Aside
At the link above is a picture of three of the contributors, Jack Pula, chairperson of the transgender committee of the Association of Gay and Lesbian Psychiatrists; Tiq Milan, a media strategist at GLAAD, and Cecilia Gentili, a program coordinator and consultant on transgender issues.
Why the fuck is Gentili making that stupid duck face? It really makes me doubt her ability and intelligence. :eyebrow:

Too much lip plumper!

Yes, and they're obviously working. No one's been raped in, what, 15 minutes now?[/sarcasm]

Yo Pam, is this legit?

There is a strand of feminism that is disturbingly anti-trans.

Really, must be that long hair leaves loose unruly strands, thanks Dana.

There really is a militant feminist sect out there that basically hates on us late bloomers. They are gadflies, really. I am more nervous about the Christians. The Baptists recently officially decided that we as a group are Bad People.

I find that there are a few dangerous people who use Church doctrine as a shield to excuse their own violent urges. I had to fight off an attempt to injure me by two people in a pickup truck (with the fish emblem and Christian bumper stickers) who tried to ram me and force me off the road. Luckily, I am a far better driver than they were and evaded them. Cause, you know, Jesus hates trannies.

Fucking bastards.

And ridiculous too, cus every picture I've ever seen of Jesus has him in a dress :p

The militant feminists who take issue with trans women are a pain in the arse, but they're highly unlikely to beat anybody up.

Granted. But there's more than one way to damage someone.

Oh, I don't doubt it. Not the least of which is making it more difficult for trans women to participate in feminist activism and draw on the support of other women.

Too much hating in the world, don't you think?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk

Absolutely!

Oh, I hate that. ;)

Looks pretty successful to me, at least on the outside.
http://imgur.com/a/f5xno

Hi Pam

Thanks for answering my question so directly. That's a good, easy to follow suggestion. However, like all rules, there's an exception that makes it impossible to follow.

Look at this story here.

Dan Savage, a gay man, articulate, involved, knowledgeable and native English speaker tripped on this very problem: how to us third person pronouns.

When I asked you my question, I was trying to clarify which gender to use. I would *never* have thought to use the neuter category "it". To me, that would be intentionally derogatory. Read the story and and read the comments. The range of points of view is vast. The comments are especially interesting. It's impossible to say anything of substance without running the risk of offending someone, somewhere (Redskins anyone?). While I may offend someone, it's probably due to ignorance than to malice. What a minefield...

Agreed, BigV. I dislike those of us who try to manipulate language like that.

This should not be so difficult to figure out. I find straight people stumbling over words that any first grader can use mor eoffensive than anything. I appear female, use female pronouns. I find the neuter case offensive because it dehumanies the person. And anyone trying to get you to use it to refer to any human being is being a total jackass and you may quote me. Apologies to all jackasses who may be offended by having their name used to describe such humans.

I do not hold with trying to create a third (or more) gender. There are two. That's it. This is why I feel that we need labels, however annoying they are.

In my presence, I am 'she'. You all also have permission to call me tranny. I have developed quite a thick hide whhile transitioning. I react less to the word and more to the meaning behind the use of the word. Calling me tranny as a contraction or for short. Transsexual IS a long word. And awkward. But, saying "You trannies all make me sick!" THAT I dislike.

See the difference?

Nice try to stump me, V. :) But us Grammar Nazis don't go down easily!

I was wondering about another aspect of that. We don't say Same Sex Oriented and add a qualifier MtM or FtF, we say Gay or Lesbian. Why are we stuck using MtF and FtM qualifiers with Transsexuals instead of having separate names? Is it due to a lack of consensus? Obviously, my exposure to the dialect occurs mainly here.

Labels, labels. We haven't agreed on new names. Just go with our given names, appropriate pronouns and a compliment or three. :D

"Ask the Transperson"

hm.. ok, phrasing my post as a question, a la Jeopardy, Pamela, have you heard of this story from the Western Washington Council of the Girl Scouts?

Way to go, Girl Scouts!

I heartily agree!

In reality, it's the ladies that show the way.

Yes, I have.

Or was I supposed to answer as a question? ;)

I have to agree, only because donations should not come with strings. Either you donate to Girl Scouts or you do not. One doesn't get to donate to only SOME Girl Scouts.

For Pam's truck.

HAHAHAHAHA!!!!


I love it Where can I buy me one of those? (starts Googling)

At Bloomberg.

This is a very familiar story, one I hear from most every employed (or recently UNemployed) transperson I have ever met.

I, myself, have not announced my transition at work and still present male for fer of losing my job and likely my career, as employer referrals are critical for changing jobs.

My hope is to retrain for another career path after surgery and before reentering the workforce. That way I do not have to go back to trucking and explain my new appearance to people who knew me as a male.

All of that linked article is very true. It never ceases to amaze me how many people feel entitled to the most intimate details of my life and body once my trans status is revealed or discovered. Sometimes I want to scream and carry on. Then I remind myself that Calpernia Addams covered this in a great if snarky youtube video. See post #61 for the video.

Love

Pam

The following article is from our local (progressive) newspaper about a 5th Grade teacher at a local school.
It some ideas we may not be familiar with and the diversity among us.

theythemtheir
Portland Tribute - Caitilin Feldman - 8/18/15

Editor's note:

Seems rather short sighted as those pronouns don't carry over to the Romance languages as gender neutral. Not even "other" (i.e. male, female, other) works in that respect nor does "it".

Most adequately descriptive words are either too long for use as pronouns; or, lose the allusion to people.

Someone will probably have to pronoun a single syllable name that at some point was associated with nonspecific gender to be widely accepted.

Submitted for your approval is "chaz". Your next stop, the PC Zone.

FIFC

Argument being bounced around several sites, I brought it in it's entirety.

I do not detect a question here, but I *will* comment.

I can see both sides of this argument. On one hand, films about trans people OUGHT to have trans people in them. On the other hand, we as a group tend to be FAR too sensitive and become outraged at any slight, real or imagined.

Perhaps a compromise would have been better (and more accurate). Put a cis actor in to portray the pre-transition part and a trans actor to portray the post transition part.

ETA: the actor who did play the part did in fact consult with many trans people and was welcomed warmly. Linky

Thanks, I was hoping you would explain what was going on. Since I'd seen what I copied in several places, it had to be more than just one person pissed off, or a lot of people pissed at that person for calling for a boycott.

What would impress me more is a trans person playing the gender they've transitioned to without their trans status even being a thing.



Incidentally - I watched the first episode of Sense8 yesterday. I am loving the trans woman and lesbian girlfriend. They're an awesome couple.

It seems there's another battle going on. " 'Dirty money' stigma plagues the transgender adult industry."

One of the most interesting discussions I've ever seen were about gender essentialism between a group of hard core "gender doesn't matter" feminists and a group of trans people at various stages (Between extreme gender dysphoria to fully transitioned).

In a way it felt like a conflict between 2nd wave to 3rd wave feminism.

One group dismissing gender as irrelevant and finding gender roles and expectations to be painful and limiting to themselves, and one group finding gender as essential to who they are, so much that it's lack of expression in their sex is emotionally painful to them.

For me it was one of those grand oppertunities where I got to see people argue over the answer for a question where I don't have my own preconceived answer I think is correct, and I'll be honest, it was a close call for me. I would say that trans have marginally won by presenting supporting evidence in neural scans that demonstrate gender symptoms in the brain.

So I ask you, trans... FtM? MtF? Should I read the OP before entering these discussions? Anyway - I ask you...

How do you view this, and in particular, how do you view the gender of cispeople who don't view their gender as part of their identity? Are they - from your perspective - in denial?

The gender is purely 100% conditioning argument just doesn't hold up at all. The idea that how we express, understand and respond to gender may be very much learned and conditioned is more compelling to me.

I do not believe that girls are biologically driven to like pink dresses and wear high heeled shoes. But I do think little girls are biologically driven to want to know how to be a girl and if the answer they see around them is that girls like pink dresses and high heeled shoes then they are very likely to start wanting those things. Similarly the drive to attract a mate requires knowing what the other person might find attractive - and if everything tells you that what makes a woman attractive is that she be this or that, then that becomes the thing we aim for.

The same is true I think of many of the features of femininity and masculinity that we culturally deem natural and unassailable.

In other words, what it is to be a woman, think like a woman and express a female gender is heavily shaped by the cultural context. The same cultural context surrounds people who have a conflict between the gender they feel they are and the gender they are told they are. They were seeking out the same answers to the question of what is male and what is female - just with a less conventional focus. You can't look for messages about one gender and not see messages about the other, they are defined in opposition to each other.


I don't think gender defines, at a biological level, whether we will want to play nurse or fix a computer. Nor do I think it defines whether we are home bodies or adventurers, able to be funny, or capable of mathematical genius. But the biological drive to be our gender may be important in defining those things, along the lines of the lessons we learn about femaleness and maleness. It also, in many ways, defines who we are in relation to others and ourselves - and that is profoundly important. And, however culturally conditioned our understanding of what it means, fundamentally.. to be male or female, that context isn't easily dismissed. Aspects of it may even be desirable - socially useful.

Anytime someone feels strongly about an issue, and gathers people who agree, it becomes political. Actually any time a group of people gather for any purpose it becomes political. There will people who by virtue of their personalities are natural leaders. Others, who are power hungry, want to be in charge, and some who are so full of themselves feel they deserve to be in charge.

Look at the tea party, lots of disgruntled people who couldn't express more than one or two actual reasons, but backed anyone who slipped into the leadership void and voiced plausible complaints. Individuals I've talked to, don't agree with everything the leadership says, but feel there's no other choice.

I'm betting the leaders of any cause are saying things not everyone supporting them agrees with completely, unless the cause is so narrow it can be summed up in a slogan or two. The Women's/feminist movement certainly can't.

I am MtF trans.

Your question is both simple and complex.
I have no idea what the fuss is about. Gender is a fundamental concept to everyone's identity and humanity. Personally, I go for the traditional gender binary, that is, male and female. I do not go for any of the "in-betweens", which upsets a lot of LGBTs I cannot honestly say that I have met anyone who holds that their gender is not part of their identity. Other than the aforementioned "tweens".

I suspect that some people just want to play "me too". There is more to the discussion in question than simply rights or identity. These views of mine have made me something of a pariah in our social circles but I believe that we are being used by some to advance a radical social agenda which seeks to deconstruct every tradition and foundation upon which the US was built.

I have not read much about this argument because I tend to avoid feminists' circles, where I and my sisters have been made to feel unwelcome, mainly by TERFs, an ultra-radical subset of feminist.

I hope I answered your question.

In the OP Pam offered to answer questions. If you haven't yet discovered, Cellar threads drift, like paper boats, when you launch a thread, you relinquish control. But tangents can be enlightening too, and Pam is tolerant. :haha:

Real Talk With Trans People.

How to be an ally.

No but it's ok, you've also given good reasons why you can't (in bold). I am essentially asking you for your opinion of a type of person you probably haven't gotten the chance to get to know yet, so there's not much you can do about that.

Or you can answer with "Did you see that game?" and "Oh man" and "close call" <- almost always works for me when people ask me for my opinions about groups of people I don't know.

That is an interesting view - and I think it's true - but missing something.

What you are describing is a tendency to identify more with members of your own gender, resulting in more openness to the viral memes that inflict them and towards observing them as role models. That in itself I think is true. Considering almost all of the examples you gave have been gender reversed in past times, it's hard to argue otherwise.

But in almost every other area of life, the conditions to identifying more with one person then another are exposure and similarity, some sense of shared experience. In order for a boy to identify more with men, he is going to need a sense that he shares with them something in common.

...And although it might seem like their is an obvious answer to what is it that they'd find in common, children do this sometimes long before they ever know the opposite sex has a different peepee, not to mention the obvious counter example of the thread we are in - trans people identifying with a specific gender regardless of their external physical attributes, regardless of what gender they are initially called.

So what underlines the preference in who we identify with? What is it then that makes children feel they have more in common internally with members of their own gender?

On it :p:

http://www.pack532.org/graphics/raingutani.gif

(Just to be clear: I am the long haired one)

So you don't believe the people that say your born with it, you prefer the nurture over nature theory.

Other way around - I was saying that this indicates more of an element for nature then Dana's theory gave it credit.

that for children to identify more with members of a particular gender, it would need to come from feeling they have more in common - naturally and from a very early age and even without having much of an idea of gender - with members of their own gender.

Drift
 

I could not readily find a suitable thread for this, so, I put it here:

Chris Sarandon talks about playing 'Leon', Al Pacino's transgender girlfriend, in "Dog Day Afternoon".

And about the movie. And some of his role research.

It's a decent enough read.

So... Here's a more serious question(s):
What were your expectations of people when you were first opening up and coming out, what did they actually do, and how much of that carried over into helping you / harming your own self acceptance as well as your friendships and relationships with them? Did any of them say or reacted in ways you found unforgivable? If so, what was it?

I don't know what I expected. I have been careful in coming out to people. Not everyone knows yet. I expect the worst; that they will immediately try to murder me. That way I'm prepared and get a pleasant surprise when they don't.

No one has tried to kill me like that yet. Not counting the rednecks in the dented pickup who tried to run me off the highway yelling epithets and throwing beer cans at me for no apparent reason. Oh, and the random stranger who felt the need to express his belief that people like me should be shot while pumping gas. Gotta love Texas!

Most people were shocked to varying degrees. None had any inkling, unlike many TSs I know who told me that they heard things like "About time" and "We knew all long, we were just waiting for you to say it". Most of my friends are no longer my friends and nearly all my family refuses to acknowledge my existence. The one person who I thought I could count on cut out on me and removed herself from my life entirely.

I have times when I doubt myself, wonder if I could just carry on like I had been before and keep my secret. Then I remember what a pistol tastes like and know the answer. Deep inside, I bear scars that will never truly heal from this. We all do, but we don't talk about it much.

Best question so far!

I guess people are getting used to someone coming out gay, as there has been so much in the media. In your case, while it's not exactly a new thing, you're on the leading edge of general public awareness. So you're going to surprise people to whom gays are ho hum another one. The problem is people don't like to be surprised very much, and when they are, they're unpredictable. Don't know what to say, what to do, it's new territory so sometimes they revert to the default instinct of fight or flight. You've chosen not the road less traveled, but a path in the fucking wilderness. Interesting, and a little exciting, but loaded with unknown hazards.

If I wish you well, and everything goes to shit, will it be my fault for encouraging you? :haha:

Wow. Ok that's... Well beyond the scale of anything I imagined. The transfolk I know faced problems but nothing like that. Sorry you had to go through that - I hope you'll be able to move the fuck out of there. People ranging from bigots to ignorant exist everywhere but... Fuck... That's not normal reactions in the rest of the western world, even for transfolk.

I dunno about that trace. There are a lot of prejudiced people and a lot of people who take a kind of personal affront at trans people.

I was for a while a sitting member of our cuoncil's 'Health and Social Care' scrutiny committee. One of the issues that was brought to our attention was the dearth of specialist services for trans men and women. The way those people were/are treated in the NHS was shocking. I supported a small group who were bringing the issue to the committee and became friends with a couple of the people leading that group. The driving force of the group, has had some terrible experiences.

Workmen taking on jobs at her house, getting there and seeing her then telling her to fuck off, they won't do the job, she should be ashamed, perverts like her make them sick.

People leaning out of cars as they drive past shouting obscenities

A severe beating on a train station about 7 years ago.

Could one of the mods just remove the name from that post - it's a little too identifiable. Cheers.

done

Tankee m'dear.

Unfortunately, events like these are quite common for transwomen (and men) all over. My experiences have been tame compared to many. And I have yet to venture into official territory like the DMV to renew my license appearing as female, only to be told to remove my makeup and put on men's clothing ("disguises" are illegal). Also, no one has yet actually assaulted me, but it is only a matter of time on that.

Yeah, since your bag isn't BDSM, that would be most unwelcome. In sketchy places, road flares look enough like dynamite to scare off troublemakers when you whip your coat open. But I suppose it would kill the elegance of your outfit. ;)

I'm trying to be as casual/upbeat about a very serious danger, as you are apparently trying to be, although we both know it's serious.