I think you're missing the point. If the government legalizes medicinal Canibis then they effectively legalize it for recreational use as well. There's no good way to regulate it to those who really need it for pain. A medication however, can be controlled.

And the real point is, who cares? Prohibition in the United States was a failure for alcohol and it is a failure for marijuana. Just concentrate on prosecuting DUI and DWI and leave people alone in their homes.

BTW, if you are going to do the Leary Biscut... slang for the cracker, do use the cheese. The protein and fat help with the delivery, keeping it down, and helping the effects last longer. It is a lot of fiber and you need those fats and proteins to ease the transition and for the cannoids to "adhere" to while working their way through your digestive system and the rest of your body.
Those who care about people in pain care.
But if that is not something one cares about, then I guess you have a point.

Adding to a long list of science intentionally destroyed or left to die, the Hubble Space Telescope, numerous satellite and other science (to promote a totally useless man to Moon and Mars program), more than 50% reduction in government software research, an obvious loss of major science laboratories such as Bell Labs and Xerox Palo Alto Research, stem cell research, and of course what promises to be as important to the future as a transistor was to my generation - quantum physics. The Economist only adds to what has happened in America. From The Economist of 27 Apr 2006 entitled The collider calamity: The New York Times continues on 30 Apr 2006: Welfare for fundamental science research? Appreciate why. Three years ago we discussed the difference between basic research and application research; and why the two must be separate operations. How can science prosper in a nation where so few understand even basic science concepts (and are therefore so easily deceived using spin such as intelligent design). Even Leigh University - nickname the Engineers - changed their name to "Mountain Hawks" and now graduates more business majors than engineers. Why is this remembered? The last person seen wearing a Lehigh sweat shirt; I asked him what his major was: business.

A previous discussion demonstrated a problem: Wanted: A Gravedigger for NASA?
Many did not understand a difference between basic research (that once was done in Bell Labs) and application research (that was forced upon the Labs by AT&T MBAs).

Again from The Economist: No science planned in this subject? A science so fundamentally essential that quantum physics is even why disk drives store so much data.

From where did America gets its science leadership? Hitler literally stripped Europe of science and technology - driving so many famous scientists to America when one could become an immigrant within days: Fermi and Sklar (nuclear fission), von Brahm (rocketry), Einstein, Schrödinger (without his cat), Edward Teller (father of American hydrogen bomb), Pauli (uncertainty principle) ... just some of the more popular ones. Germany is estimated to have driven out about 25% of their physicists alone. Gottingen university was once one of the most famous centers of mathematics. A Nazi minister asked a famous mathematician David Hilbert about the state of mathematics "now that it is free of Jews." Hilbert replied, "Mathematics in Gottingen? There is really none any more." Why did America become world leaders in math?

From 1901 to 1932, Germany had 14 Nobel laureates in chemistry; America had 2. From 1932 to 1982, America had 24 Nobel laureates; Germany only 10. Do you think Americans are just naturally better innovators? Science and technology must be nutured by a society and leaders that understands what science is - and why immigrants are so important. Current president is an MBA - with all the knowledge that is to often found in MBA types.

Today, even stem cell research must move overseas because religion (what some adametly worship when educated in myths rather than reality) is imposed on science. Even a completely brain dead woman becomes a religous vendetta. We are even refighting battles over creationism - with some fancy title so as to confuse our uneducated: intelligent design. This because so many Americans have so little grasp of technology - also called reality.

Superconductivity was discovered in lead in about 1910. It took till 1950s to eventually get a theory as to how superconductivity works. But since we don't understand the underlying subatomic principles behind it, then superconductivity has been about 'lets try this one to see what it does'. Science by using a roulette wheel in a desperate hope that we may finally understand why it works and then get a useful superconductor. Only recently has anyone finally explained why so called high temperature superconductors work - and why they are completely different from low temperature superconductors. Where was this work done? Where basic research in quantum physics is moving. Europe - where science is fleeing America for so many reasons - including fear, security, and funding.

American universities have already warned of a 20% reduction in overseas science students - a major source of American science. Fatherland Security requirements are cited as a major reason. Posted previously was a Chinese delegation for a new possible WiFi (developed in China) that were suddenly and at the last minute denied visas to the Orland IEEE conference for this technology. These Chinese were security risks, according to George Jr's administration?

Cited are many reasons why science is slowly diminishing. It does not help that our government is now so science adverse and so wants to fix the world with military solutions (as religous extremists have attempted all through history). Why are the French now world leaders in space launches?

But most damning have been my meetings with so many engineers and programmers. I now routinely ask, "Would you want you child to be an engineer?" A question asked because EDN also asked that question. Literally everyone said no. As two programmers from India today told me, they are amazed at how many students taking software engineering don't even know how to program; don't even know at least one programming language. But then one (so called) software engineer recently graduated from U of Indiana only knows how to write scripts. Ask her about sorting algorithms? She need not know that 'stuff'.

So why would we want a super collider?. That $8billion was better spent on ISS - that does zero science - and has now cost more than $80billion. The ISS is probably the most visible spacecraft circling the earth at dawn or dusk - therefore it promotes America? More than 10 super colliders and increasing; and ISS still does nothing useful. But to George Jr, that is science. Yes, even the DoD software research budget has been decreased by well over 50% in the past three years. He withholds money for things that don't promote the invasion of Iran? Or did god tell him to do it? It explains why so much science is diminishing.

I enjoyed you post, TW. The only thing I would caution you against is your use of superlatives.

Zero science? You may not agree with the goals or choice of experiments, but you should not ignore what is being done. Since you are an engineer, I expect you to be very careful with the use of 'zero' and '%100', realizing that such concepts do not always translate well into reality.

It is true that many of the experiments they mention have to do with long term healh issues related to zero gravity, as well as issues related to equipment exposure to solar radiation, things that would mostly be useful for long term space missions.

I agree that I do not see collider research being done in space, but I do see some physics experiments.

You could argue that money spent on physics on earth can provide more answers for less resources, in other words be a better value, but to say that zero science is being done on the space station weakens your argument by demonstrating bias.

And he forgot to say "mental midget".
Just kidding TW, good post. :D

When something is 0.007 inches, then how many inches are measured by a ruler? Zero. Once something is that near zero, then it is zero. Engineers deal in significant digits. Signifcantly - ISS does zero science.

There is science ongoing on the ISS. So much science as to be zero. ISS required three people just to maintain it. Only a fourth crewman provideds sufficient labor to do any science. No superlatives. If doing well less than 1% of science intended, then that is zero science.

Much of the human duration science that can be done well protected by earth's environment is done. ISS was considered for mothballing until the Shuttle could start flying again because it has no purpose. Russian opposed that decision quite strongly due to lessons learned from Mir. The only reason two spacemen remain in ISS - to keep it operational. No practical science exists in ISS until it can support a fourth crewman. It is a money pit.

Why was Columiba carrying Space lab? Space Lab was the only place where manned science could be performed. Why not on ISS? Insufficient resources to do any science in ISS. $80 billion is a lot of science better performed by satellites, robots, - and a rescued Hubble Space Telescope.

ISS does zero science. No superlative. Ongoing science is mostly show stuff - such as throwing out a space suit with a radio inside. As noted before, I would get NASA's Tech Briefs. Almost all NASA budget is for manned space. And yet most all science in those Tech Briefs came from unmanned science - that now dimishing to less than $3billion in a budget of $80billion annually. Where is all this ISS science? It does not exist.

Do we believe the propaganda? Or do we first demand numbers? ISS does virtually zero science.

Meanwhile notice what those NY Times and Economist reports say - no new sub atomic particle research machines planned and existing ones are closing in America - even for lack of money.

Also IEEE Spectrum reported on a large meeting to learn how to send men to Mars. Only way known considering our knowledge of materials, was to surround those astronauts with something like five feet of water. Not economically feasible. Cosmic rays - not a problem to ISS astronauts - would all but kill an astronaut to Mars. The final conclusion: every known means of protecting Mars astronauts does not work. We still have too much research to do here before we can send men to Mars. And what is happening to that research? It is dying in America - in places such as ISS.

The conversation on the last couple of pages of this thread belonged in here as well....
http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=10544&page=2

I'm never impressed when tw is being a crank -- I'm surprised anyone else countenances it.

I'm moved to ask, tw: what language was your first? You tend to use English like someone from Eastern Europe.

Nor is anyone impressed when your being your usual tool self either.

What difference does it make where he is from or what his primary language is? Do you sum someone up by their race and or language preference? Or was that crack meant to be comedic in some way? If that was the intention you missed your mark.

Aside from slumming around in the political and current events forums with snide remarks do you actually contribute anything?

Now please make some profound statement regarding my low post count and get back to your scheduled hateful little life.

TW sums up exactly why I plan on moving out of the US once I graduate. I am currently a sophmore bioengineer, and I can't imagine working anywhere in this country. I should add one comment however, religeous crusades probably have much less effect on why I'm leaving as opposed to other aspects mentioned. I think that Americans as a whole have abandoned science. At my university (U of Pittsburgh) we are a significant minority, and the general attitude among the non-scientists is that science is some wierd thing that antisocial people do in dark rooms. It's this attitude that has convinced me to leave. Instead of working for the US government or a US university I will further the goals of whatever international corporation will give me the funding and equipment. My attitude is hardly rare as well. The general consensus is that anyone who can work abroad, should. When Americans are outraged that a corporation has all the rights to the next leap in cancer treatment or the like, they can look inwards for the answer.

It's retro, 9th. that's exactly the way it was before sputnik/JFK started the "space race" and the big push for math and engineering majors. Slide rules became status symbols and engineers got groupies, because it was suddenly glamorous.

Then a great pall scudded (I've been waiting since high school to use that word) over the nation and blocked out the light of humanity and reason. It is a scourge on our souls, called MBA. :(

10,000 American scientists including 52 Noble Laurets are complaining that George Jr is perverting science for political purposes. Discussed here previously with contention were those aluminum tubes that were obviously not for nuclear weapons even before Iraq was invaded.

As Happy Monkey noted, Union of Concerned Scientists provided this summary of science intentionaly pervert for political purposes. At this point, only an anti-American extremist (also called a Republican who votes the party line) could deny this lists:
A: Army Science Board
Ab: Abstinence Only Sex Education Science
Ac: Arms Control Advisory Panel
Ae: Abstinence Only Sex Education Cirriculum
Ai: Airborne Bacteria
Aq: National Ambient Air Quality Standards
At: Atrazine
B: Bull trout
Bc: Breast Cancer
C: Climate Change
Cg: Cattle Grazing
Da: NIH Drug Abuse Panel
E: Endangered Species Act
Ec: Emergency Contraception
F: Forest Management
Fe: Fuel Efficiency
Fi: NIH Fogarty International
Fp: Florida Panther
Fs: UCS Federal Scientists Surveys
G: Endangered Species Genetics
H: HIV/AIDS Education
Hc: Hurricanes
Hg: Mercury
Ia: International AIDS Conference
It: Aluminum Tubes in Iraq
J: James Hansen
K: Ketek
L: Libraries
Lp: Childhood Lead Poisoning Panel
Mi: Prescription Drugs Mifepristone and Misoprostol
Mm: Marbled Murrelet
Mr: Mountaintop Removal Mining
Nn: National Nuclear Security Administration Panel
Ns: Nerve Stimulator
O: Oil Extraction
Pc: President's Council on Bioethics
Pd: Prarie Dogs
Pe: Pesticides
Pl: Post Disturbance Logging
Pm: Particulate Matter Pollution
Pp: Plywood Plant
Pr: OMB Peer Review
Q: Air Quality Proposals
R: Red Frog
Rc: Roundtail Chub
Re: Reproductive Health Advisory Committee
Rp: Racial Profiling
S: Sage Grouse
Sa: Endangered Salmon
Se: Selenium
So: Sonar and Whales
Sp: Spotted Owl
St: Sexually Transmitted Disease Panel at CDC
T: Toxic Chemicals Release
Tr: Trumpter Swans
Tr: Tabernamontana Rotensis
V: Vetting of experts on WHO Panel
Vo: School Vouchers
Ws: Workplace Safety Panel
X: Vioxx
Z: Ground Zero

Of course these are the same people who insist we are winning in Iraq while denying any chance of victory in Afghanistan - all for a political agenda and presidential legacy.

What is ID but politics.
No science gets into textbooks by political voting... why would the ID people not want theirs to go through the same scientific rigors and path as any other hypothesis to get to textbooks as any other theory?

Many have little idea how widespread are scams and misinformation. You can buy devices to discharge the sky so that lightning will not strike (Early Streamer Emission (ESE) lightning rods). Some will even add radioactive materials that somehow make them better. Or Geritol for reduced aging. Pond's Institute for younger lasting skin. Power strip protectors so hyped in Circuit City. Atkin's diet. Head On. Listerine. In each case, they don't even try to make claims based in science and logic. Somehow observation or feelings alone is proof enough.

Add to that list Intelligent Design. They don't even try to meet the well proven benchmark that make science successful and productive. Somehow we are just suppost to know - and that is sufficient.

Above is a list of items to benchmark yourself. Do you demand based upon principles taught in school science? Or do you just know? Did I mention I know this Prince in Nigeria who needs your help.

"Apply directly to the forehead!!"

Right, you can't just drop science and logic once you leave the classroom, it has to apply to every decision that gets made. Every decision, most people get stuck on that.

You're trying too hard -- to be annoying, and apparently that is the sum total of your ambition. Enjoy being laughed at by nicer people than you, and go fuck yourself and put a smile on your face. Fuck yourself twice, while you're at it, and put two smiles there -- a bit of holiday cheer.

I'm curious. Having some familiarity with Slavic languages, I'm seeing what looks like an eastern European pattern to tw's sentences. It would also account for his distinctly Soviet view of history -- and of U.S. foreign policy, for that matter. Tw's non-intelligent, generally inadequate spelling gets particularly ill considered any time he faces a foreign language quotation or name -- "von Brahm" for von Braun, quotha! Does tw expect us to be as ignorant as he? He's doomed to disappointment. This is a man with zero copyediting skill. Your desperate attempt to find prejudice here will also be disappointed.

And your own stellar contributions under any handle amount to what, again? Evidently, you don't visit Food and Drink much either, you non-searching, ignorant, easily-slapped putz.

And you demonstrate your saintly degree of enlightenment in this way, do you?

Here's some REAL perverting of science in the name of fundamentalist BS:

Grand Canyon National Park is not permitted to give an official estimate of the geologic age of its principal feature, due to pressure from Bush administration appointees. Despite promising a prompt review of its approval for a book claiming the Grand Canyon was created by Noah's flood rather than by geologic forces, more than three years later no review has ever been done and the book remains on sale at the park, according to documents released today by Public Employees for Environmental Responsibility (PEER).

"In order to avoid offending religious fundamentalists, our National Park Service is under orders to suspend its belief in geology," stated PEER Executive Director Jeff Ruch. "It is disconcerting that the official position of a national park as to the geologic age of the Grand Canyon is ‘no comment.'"

*chokes on food*

That is a joke right? Please please please be a joke.

For me Al Bore´s "An Inconvenient Truth" is the Mother of Perverting Science for Politics.

How does it feel to have a stalker, tw?

Bush sucks. Remember this the next time you think about voting republican.

Any geology book, textbook or popular read, will tell you the Canyon itself is five million years old or a little less, and will tell you the age of the Vishnu Schist of the lower Canyon.

There might be such a thing as a young -- comparatively young -- schist. Somebody'd have to tell me about it, though...

Suncrafter, toe-tag Democrats may come by it honestly -- a very elderly New Deal Democrat is a friend of mine -- but they are the opposite of smart. The current crop of national-level Democrats aren't worth a vote nor a dime. They think like Socialists, and they are in too much of a hurry to find a substitute, any substitute, for victory in the War On Terror, which they believe in far less than the terrorists who actually killed some of us.

Expect the Dems to behave in one of two ways, and these only: stupid, or treasonous. Since I am neither, I suggest you join me in voting against the Dem candidates, and funding the campaigns of their opponents. The Republic is more important than any party.

No bias there...

We can argue about what party is worse all day long and all you will get is both parties doing the exact same thing but with a slightly different twist. Both parties are power whores that will abuse their power the instant they get it, helping only a select few instead of the majority.

I actually completely agree with that statement. It's just the train of alleged thought that follows that has me completely mystified.

I also believe that the Republic rests upon the Constitution, and that the rush to achieve perfect safety by weakening that framework is a greater threat to the Republic than any terrorist weapon. I do not agree with men who disparage individuals who disagree with the adminsitration, people who claim that those who refuse to meekly submit to authoritarian demands to abolish or bypass Constitutional guarantees to freedom are the enemies of freedom.

Unlike UG, I will not ask for anyone to join me in opposing all Republicans, just those who abdicate their roles in acting to require that the adminstration seek real advice and consent from Congress.

For a man who declares his love of a Republic, UG acts more like a serf in a fiefdom, looking to his lord to protect and command him.

For a country that prides itself on it's 'citizen soldiers', how did we end up with someone like him?

My, Rich, speaking of alleged thought...

But I've compared your thinking to Mario Cuomo's before -- how does a guy clearly that bright stay so often wrong? And just where is "serfdom" in rejecting the thrust of a given party's policy habits anyway?

It's the Democratic Party's record that has me disenchanted with them. Intellectually, their socialism is all shoddy goods, unworthy of an intelligent electorate, and relying for its success on an electorate that isn't so intelligent.

The Dem Party has not been selling anything I wanted to buy since 1992 and before. My coming to Libertarianism from reading Murry Rothbard in 1983 has made me particularly resistant to the Dem Party's socialistic trend.

Then there's this party's inability at foreign policy: none of the present lot could win a war, though some few of them could probably start a war. But having started a war, then they flag, and as Ann Coulter remarks, declare that the war, whichever and any, is "unwinnable." Recall how utterly clueless the Clinton Administration was in its use of the military -- sporadic, half thought out activity, pursued halfheartedly, withdrawn muddledly. The last Democratic President to win a war was Truman. All since have uniformly dropped the ball. That's a long time to stay this incapable. Was Coulter right -- does the Democratic Party have a tropism towards treason? Or is this mere incompetence -- or would that be better evidenced by at least half of their decisions redounding in the national favor? John Kerry voted against the Contras, and thus for the good of the Communists -- and that one vote was no anomaly in the man's professional life.

If you want the nation to win, nowadays the choice is a Republican, until such time as we have enough Libertarians who think like I do. This is because a major power's political schools of thought have to be able to exert force when necessary, and have the intellectual and spiritual robustness to see it through. If any should lack this, they lack any prospect of attaining any position of power or influence.

I doubt that any Republicans abdicated any role whatsoever -- for they understood and I hope still understand that there's a mess out there to clean up. The Dems have adopted a posture of abdicating any responsibility to act in the Republic's interest vis-a-vis the anti-democrats that are our foes.

I raised my right hand in 1977 and swore to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States from all enemies, foreign and domestic. I stayed in a uniform and a short haircut until 1986. It is in considerable measure because of this experience that I speak as I do.

Now how about you, Rich? Did you commit so far -- or did you have "other priorities?"

I took the oath in 1978 but I never wore a uniform (ok, maybe once but it was a training exercise). I never enlisted and it is because or in spite of this that I speak as I do. There are many people besides soldiers who take the oath - Public officials, naturalized citizens, some law enforcement.

Even people who never get the chance can still support the Constitution by simply exercising their rights. The Democratic wave in Congress, and the Republican wave that preceded it were examples of the people doing just that.

Being in the military does not give one special insight into the purpose and care of the Constitution. It also does not disqualify one from doing so. The founding fathers, in fact, created the 2nd amendment partially as a response to the creation of a federal standing army. Maybe they thought that it might be a good idea if local militias stood ready in case a group of guys like UG started organizing within the Army.

You do remember that it was Reagan who pulled out of Lebanon after the barracks bombing, right?

As for Clinton, he did pull troops out of Somalia, but he also managed to help successfully prosecute a war in Bosnia with real international support that didn't cost us 300 billion dollars and 3000 lives.

Even Quantum physics (the source of Gb disk drives and new computer memories) is being quashed by the mental midget and his Republican dominated congress. No reason for things to change. From the NY Times of 8 Jan 2007: Only a dummy in the spirit of Urbane Guerrilla would approve as if only military and Fatherland Security were important. A classic cost control mentality forgets when we spend $2 Trillion on Iraq - a number that will increase because the mental midget is sending more (and too few) troops to Iraq. Only a president with Urbane intelligence would call that a good thing.

When I was growing up, transistors were the promise of the future. Today, quantum physics is that same future promise. In 2003, Gen Jay Garner accurately reported that we were losing in Iraq. When did you finally see what he knew that long ago? Wars are short term events. Science takes longer. But already American economic development is at risk. Do you see what is happening now, or do you wait for symptoms to become painful. Garner said what was obvious in 2003. And finally in 2007, people are finally 'feeling' reality. The destruction of science - especially to promote George Jr's legacy: finance a man to Mars - is significant and destructive. When does it appear in your pocket? Long after he is gone and famous?

Advances in science and technology will help tremendously us in the next couple decades. It is extremely short sited not to invest in these and I'm pretty sure only Bush and his cronies have successfully done that.

And here they come, as I expected. :thepain2: :eyebrow: :headshake :censored: :crazy: :cuss:

If you hadnt done it from your first post, I'd say you've just lost every bit of respect I have for you.

I still say youre somebody's puppet... at the very least, youve got somebody's hand up your ass.

Wow. You really did link to Ann Coulter. I think you can do better.

Thats a great read UG - perhaps something can be taken from a little history revisited. Then again these things are like statistics and will be twisted by both sides to make the other look bad. How disfunctional a system we have. Let me make myself look good by making you look bad.

Coulter has a point- If we were still in Vietnam, we wouldn't have lost yet.

True, we would still be losing.

Remember the boat people weren't trying to get into Vietnam, but out of it. Communism is insupportable among the people of decency.

And there are no refugees fleeing the United States. About the only U.S.-fleeing individual crank fleeing away that I can even bring to mind was R. Crumb. (He's been voluble about his reasons -- but they're all unimportant. Were they important, he'd have had some company, I suppose.)

You might have gone so far as to suggest someone. I'm currently reading Whittaker Chambers -- who was vivid, though now pretty dated. Instructive, though. Then there's William F. Buckley, who is damned near untouchable, and the late Erik von Kuhnelt-Leddihn. Sean Hannity is not yet a powerful social philosopher, but he is improving -- his second book is an improvement over his first, deeper thought and better written.

Plenty of people fled America in the sixties and seventies. Oh wait, they dont count, they were just liberal hippy idiots, right?

Idiots, yes; dupes, yes. I disregard them. I think anybody with a brain would.

Now you get to figure out why I'd think they're not to be respected. It's within your powers; I've seen the stuff you're putting on the Philosophy forum and I like it.

Of course I know why you dont think theyre to be respected; youre a paleolithic, neomccarthyist, pinko-hating nutjob. (and yes, I could go on)

Now you get to figure out why I'd think you're not to be respected.

(hint: it's right there^)

Jamie Foxx took a Hollywood film role as a singer. Now suddenly for some reason he thinks he's a serious musician.

Hannity started putting his name on books. You follow the analogy.

And those boat people continued coming for 30 years? Yes, according to UG propaganda. No if UG uses a neocon political agenda to rationalize.

Remember some of his earliest posts. UG completely understood why Vietnam occurred and was lost - but did not even know facts from the Pentagon Papers. Maybe Ann Coulter tells him how to think? Goebbels with blond hair. Brown shirts somehow just knew more. 'Big dic' rationalizing is alive and well.

People will always fear totalitarianism that UG promotes. No wonder he also loved Nixon as he loves George Jr. Notice how UG fears the Iraq Study Group. Facts and reality. Too much for UG to read. He feels; therefore he knows. It is called decisions based upon a political agenda.

UG said he was reading Thomas P.M. Barnett's Blueprint For Action: A Future Worth Creating in this post on 9 Nov 2006. Why is he so silent? He had to read something more complex than Animal Farm. Barnett also demonstrates why Urbane Guerrilla's politics are a prescription for failure. How UG’s totalitarianism only results in failure. UG does not discuss even that book. Instead he somehow knows.

Screw off, tw. I'm still working on it, as it repays careful study. Screw off twice and thrice, madman. I know from your posts that you are the totalitarianism promoter around here -- one cannot in practice be a Communist and a democrat.

I read For A New Liberty, thanks. I found it seminal, though I don't share Rothbard's touching faith in anarchy.

Sorry, it's because you're under twenty and believe you know it all. Call it an occupational hazard. I'm fifty, and I know patience -- I have a pretty good idea that your opinions will evolve as you become fully adult. The reason, dear fellow, to hate pinkoes is found in the butcher's bill of Communism -- I've said before that the anticommunist is the pro-human, and that is just the most basic reason why.

The rest, and anything you could go on about in this vein, is adjectival froth, and impressive to the high schooler, but that's it. The reason I'm untroubled is I've had more of a life than you. Stay out from under heavy falling objects and you'll get there too.

There is no prospect of further boat people and refugees now that Vietnam has seen Communism doesn't work.

This emphasis on some 30-year period is opaque -- perhaps tw is trying to win through gibberish.

Won't work, kid. The mad never really get that they are mad. Trouble is, everyone else does.

Yet you ignore the fact that Vietnamese communism was defeated in the marketplace not on the battlefield. This opposition to reality is reflected in your views about defeating radical Islam.

I'm not ignoring it at all, much as you'd like to believe the contrary. I am very pleased that Communism fell in Vietnam of its own contradictions.

I also recognize the validity of Heinlein's contention that "violence -- naked force -- has settled more issues in history" than any other means. Like it or not. Unfreedom needs to be destroyed, discredited, and defunded, Griff. Seems to me this is a primary mission for the committed libertarian, big L or small. Otherwise the unfree try and kill the free -- which I think we agree is no good.

is it wrong to pray for bushs' assasination?

That post won't trigger Carnivore.

yes, although I don't think you'll be praying alone.

Posting statements like that can get you a visit from the US Secret Service especially now that government so little trusts us as to spy on everyone. Spying even by the Defense Dept.

I happen to know how touchy those 'powers that be' have always been about such public statements. Strongly recommend you delete your post and learn how touchy this nation's security systems have become. Meanwhile, the attitude itself is also a bad thing for you AND for all Americans who do not sympathize.

...On account of assholes coming in bouquets.

Now a slightly smarter collection of dumbasses -- study hard and you might get that far, axenutz -- realize that if they shoot W they make Dick Cheney President.:p :p :p

Some people...! Fuck up a one-car funeral, steal a hot stove and drop it on their foot, mix up Spike Lee and Spike Jones with Spike Milligan, and never get French benefits.

thanks for the insight, Urbane Goofoff, you might be the smartest of dumbass',,,,,besides it was just a random thought....send over the secret service,,,i'll make coffee and stem cell cheesecake,,,tee hee

They won't do anything unless you already have a background. I am part of some other forums that someone started a thread about a people's army that will assassinate the police and government officals, he was serious too. He is still there.

Yeah, well those other forums aren't the Cellar!! !! j/k :p