Let me ask again, what is "rich" or "Wealthy"? The person who has less than the other will always see those who have more as rich. It is a never ending cycle. If you want to be "rich" do it.

I'm a bit late here, but I have two cents worth lying about, so here goes....

I agree with Dana's interpretation of the original intent of the quote, in its full context. It seems to be saying, sit down, working man, stop rocking the boat.

And yes, the economic pie is NOT a zero sum game, we seem agreed on that.

But yes and no, some rich people get rich by making the pie bigger. Some rich people get rich by enlarging their slice of the pie at the expense of others. I hazard the guess that *most* rich people do both, and aren't really too fussed about which they are doing at any particular time.

Carry on.

Zen, what is a "rich" person. How do you define it?

I didn't say it was a waste of time. I said I gained nothing tangible. I gained plenty of intangible things from it. And I was able to do it because my government subsidised my education: paid for by progressive taxation. Without that progressive taxation it would not have been subsidised. Without that subsidy I would have had no access to such higher learning. University would be far too expensive for the likes of me, a working-class woman with no property to borrow against and no savings to call upon.

So is a Higher Education a "right" of all people in the UK, to be paid for by the working and earning?

Not exactly. You have to fulfil the university's entrance requirements. Universities get a large part of their funding from central government. They also charge tuition fees; however there is a limit on what they can charge: so-called 'top-up fees'. They get a certain amount for the number of students they take (this is limited) and each student is charged top-up fees. At present the limit on how much can be charged to the student is somewhere around £4k a year. The student can choose to pay that themselves or take a low interest student loan which is not repayable until they are earning above 15k a year. On top of that they can choose to apply for a maintenance loan and grant: a combined figure of up to £5.5k a year depending on their level of household income. As my income was below the threshold I was able to apply for the full amount. approx £3k a year loan and £2.5k a year non-repayable grant.

I have come out with a debt of around £20k. But for that I got 3 years of tuition at a Russell Group university in a school of History ranked 31st in the world.

It is heavily subsidised through progressive taxation. Even without the non-repayable grant element, the cost of tuition is garnered mainly through government money and overseas students with the UK student themselves paying (either at the time or through repayment of loans) a fairly small portion. Who is likely to pay higher levels of taxes? Graduates who have benefitted from that subsidy.

This is a fairly recent development. Up until a few years ago, UK students were not expected to pay towards tuition fees at all. And they could apply for a maintenance grant of £5k a year (non repayable). The grant was abolished over a decade ago. Top-up fees were introduced a few years ago. One of the ideas put forward as a way of getting money into the system without making students pay at the time was the Graduate Tax. This wuold basically have meant the old system remained in place, but graduates would pay an extra bit of tax once they were earning above a certain amount. This would mean the people who had taken from the system would retrospectively pay for it. I would have preferred that option. But c'est la vie.

I see. So as in the US with our healthcare, they over charge the students who can pay to pay for those who can't. And that is fair? If yes, why?

In higher education in the U.S., it's called a "Pell Grant."

The quotation marks were sarcastic, but are you not paying attention?

Who are they over-charging? The only students who pay the full price of tuition fees are overseas students: the ones who will not be paying UK taxes when they have completed their degree and whose parents have not been in residence within the UK to pay taxes, or who have not themselves been resident and paying tax. If someone has been resident in the UK for 3 years then they will only have to pay top-up fees.

Sure I am paying attention. Sounds no different than our current healthcare system. Those who have no money get it for free while those who have money are overcharged so others get it for free.

True, but your system of taxation is much higher than in the US, which funds many other things including the NHS.

Not so. Those who are resident pay the same tuition fees regardless of income. Low interest loans for those top-up fees are available regardless of income. The only element dependent on income levels is the maintenance loan/grant. That goes on a sliding scale: if you have a household income of less than 15k per annum you can get the full loan (note: loan) of 3k a year. You can also get the full grant (non-repayable) of 2.5k a year. This is not to cover the cost of university fees and is not paid for by overcharging other students. Overseas students are not over-charged: they are charged at the market rate for university tuition. All UK resident university students are subsidized through general taxation.


[eta]actually, not quite all. There are a handful of institutions which are not subsidized and charge full rate tuition fees. They have chosen not to be funded by government. I would point out that these do not include Oxford or Cambridge. Even with the changing rules on top-up fees, the cost of attending an Oxbridge institution is not much higher than attending my university. They receive general taxation funding, therefore they are obliged to offer education on similar terms.

Ok, got it now. They don't go for a lessor price because the UK peoples are taxed more to make up the difference or that Non-UK residents are charged more to subsidise their loans. They just have better access than those who can pay. Correct?

Not sure what you mean merc?

Incidentally: the low interest government backed loans are a one shot deal. I could not now go and do another degree and get a low interest loan from the Student Loan company, nor can I apply for any governmant backed maintenance loans or grants. The cost of my MA tuition is lower than if I was an overseas student because the government gives general subsidy funding tagged to the number of MA students, but I have to find my own way of paying for that tuition. I am fortunate to hve a scholarship, many don't.