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russotto 03-27-2003 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tw

Some gems that have me seriously bothered. Iraqis have not used radar guided anti-aircraft defense systems. Why? What are they waiting for?

Probably because every time they turn one on, it gets destroyed by radar seeking munitions.

Quote:


War is that assymetrical meaning that it is a most intriguing, multi-dimensional jig saw puzzle. Not hard to understand. Every piece fits in the puzzle if you understand where it is coming from. View it from many different perspectives - which is why I have been so against this war - and why I am so concerned for how we will win this war, and why I cannot get enough news.

Your main problem here is you assume you know what the puzzle looks like, so you fit every piece you can into that notion. The other pieces get hacked to fit and/or discarded. You also assume that you're the only one to have picked up on some of these items. Don't you think the US military had some idea of what the terrain was like? And if the military really naively expected all the people to welcome them as liberators, why did they bypass Basra?

van Creveld has it right: Everything said by either side is a lie. Or at least potentially so. What politicians say is orthagonal to the truth. The military wants to boast of its own accomplishments, and it wants to send a message that resistance is futile. But at the same time it wants to conceal its operations and also get Iraqi forces to overextend themselves outside the cities. The few things you can believe aren't sufficient to put together a coherent picture. You can tell things aren't going according to a best-case scenario, but jumping from there to a worst-case scenario is an incredible leap.

(and when am I going to learn not to respond to tw? Probably when Saddam Hussein learns humility...)

Undertoad 03-27-2003 06:50 PM

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...653833092.html

Near Basra, Iraq: British military interrogators claim captured Iraqi soldiers have told them that al-Qaeda terrorists are fighting on the side of Saddam Hussein's forces against allied troops near Basra.

tw 03-27-2003 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Uryoces
You've got a lot of great knowledge on subjects political, and I spend a great deal of time Googling the facts you bring to bear, but a lot of what you are stating is opinion.
I don't understand your point. Are you saying because you cannot confirm what was posted on the net or through google, then it must be opinion?

Uryoces 03-27-2003 07:29 PM

Quote:

I don't understand your point.

No, you don't.

tw 03-27-2003 08:26 PM

Quote:

posted by tw
I don't understand your point.

Originally posted by Uryoces
No, you don't.
So we agree on something. But to be explicit: I am trying to understand your point. Please explain it.

tw 03-27-2003 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by russotto
Your main problem here is you assume you know what the puzzle looks like, so you fit every piece you can into that notion. The other pieces get hacked to fit and/or discarded. You also assume that you're the only one to have picked up on some of these items.
Unlike UT, I did not assume that Al Qaeda is allied with its arch enemy Saddam - then spend hours seeking proof to justify this myth. UT is convinced of the need for this war - knows what the puzzle looks like. I don't know what the real picture looks like which is why this multi-dimension jig saw is so interesting. It literally has my every available waking moment. I thrive on the mystery and surprise in these events. I was strongly opposed to the reason for this war, but I can't get enough of it. Just too many unknowns in this jig saw picture.

For example, what ever happened to 'Shock and Awe'? Last night, a key piece was delivered on Charlie Rose. One of the early architects of 'Shock and Awe' said it was suppose to be a coordinated attack on all Iraqi military, simultaneously, including coordinated direct ground attacks on Republican Guard units.

So what happened? Somehow it got downgraded into a political show of 'will' and only by air. Originally was suppose to overload the entire Iraqi Command and Control structure with too much information and too many calls for help. Instead it was nothing more than one night of fancy fireworks by air forces. It got downgraded into something that was to create 'Shock and Awe' by only attacking top leadership.

Did not realize what this part of the puzzle looked like until many retired Gulf War generals began talking this weekend about how the military did not get the forces it deemed necessary. Without sufficient forces, 'Shock and Awe' has bogged down into 'waiting for reinforcements'. In the meantime, what will Franks do now that 3rd Army will confront 6 - not just 3 - Republican Guard units. Just another problem created by insufficient assets - as Lt General Wallace finally admitted today (BBC reported this somewhat sarcastically by saving he finally "came clean"). 3rd Army is the only heavy armor on the battlefield with heavy armor reinforcements not coming until mid April.

Momentum was lost. 'Shock and Awe' was subverted by asset micromanagement at political levels.

During the Gulf War, George Sr asked what was needed to accomplish the strategic objective. Swartzkopf said it bluntly. "7th Corp". Jaws dropped. But George Sr's believed in giving his people what they needed to do the job. His administration would work for Swartzkopf. In this war, Pentagon plans were repeatedly rejected for using too many assets. George Jr politicians told his people what they needed to do the job. Latter is a classic example of MBA management. Therefore 'Shock and Awe' has degraded from a two week war into a multi- month slug fest of attrition. Just what Saddam wants. More jig saw pieces that had no place in the puzzle now make sense. I discard nothing.

I also assume you too have been asking what happened to 'Shock and Awe'. If you have more information, add it on. I need your jig saw pieces. Still don't know what this entire puzzle looks like. Still can't get enough news reports.

Another interesting jig saw piece reported in today's Inky. A Special Forces 'A' team was overrun in North Iraq by about 100 Iraqis (a Company?). Normally such information is secret - never even appears in the casulty reports. Overrun usually means killed or captured. Another jig saw piece that has no place in the puzzle - and yet will never be discarded. Since "I have assumed everyone else has no information", then don't bother helping with the puzzle - OR keep your ears on. Such military losses are not trivial especially when it happened in what was suppose to be Kurd friendly territory. Special Forces are not suppose to be overrun especially by a poorly trained third world army.

Undertoad 03-27-2003 09:22 PM

Something like 3500 sorties with GPS-guided weapons in 6 days is not exactly a "downgrade" in any sense of the word -- except to the TV cameras, which can no longer show us pretty pictures.

Which was something that I brought up as a possibility before this started. The media didn't understand, when they positioned their cameras, that the entire city wasn't gonna be blown to bits. That the "shock and awe" wasn't going to be shocking and awesome to THEM.

To be sure, I've never felt that an al Qaeda connection was legit. I thought that the administration felt the same way when they stopped mentioning any Al Qaeda connection last fall. Then Powell's bit at the UN, which has led to much disagreement over how tight a tie his evidence represents. I felt I could take or leave that bit, but it was interesting.

I've felt there was a non-zero probability of connection*, but I'm not smart enough or clued-in enough to judge exactly what that probability is.

And I've felt there was a non-zero probability that Hussein has or was close to having nukes. And myriad connections to other terrorist groups. Now you take those probabilities and put them together.

It's not that simple, of course, but I am pretty much without doubt that on the moment of the first act of the war, the US became a much safer place to be.

Wall Street agrees, with something like six straight days of rises. tw, didn't you once try to make a point around a one-day rally...?


* Sorry to use a high-falutin' phrase like "non-zero probability of connection". I couldn't think of any other way to say it.

Undertoad 03-27-2003 09:33 PM

Oh yes, and - a great source of war news and clues can be found at:

http://www.command-post.org/

tw 03-27-2003 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
Then Powell's bit at the UN, which has led to much disagreement over how tight a tie his evidence represents. I felt I could take or leave that bit, but it was interesting.
In a stage packed full of major characters, one should be conspicuous by his absense - Colin Powell. The need for and getting that second UN resolution was his idea. He failed. Now nothing from or about him especially when he should be involved in discussions between George Jr and Tony Blair about a diplomatic solution after the war ends.

Just wondering if he has been mortally wounded in this administration, simply binding his wounds, or shrewdly keeping a low profile and good distance from current events.

russotto 03-28-2003 11:16 AM

Shock and Awe
 
Another possibility is that the major part Shock and Awe just hasn't started yet. That it's the next phase of the campaign, after Coalition troops have positioned themselves around Baghdad and secured their rear. There's currently talk of a siege, which seems pretty stupid to me -- I can't see the US taking the PR hit that a siege would cause. I figure more likely Baghdad will get hit from all sides at once.

Anyone else catch Gen. Franks interview on KYW yesterday? He didn't say much (despite talking a lot -- future politician, this one), and what he did say probably had little relation to the truth, but he sure seemed to be enjoying the hell out of the interview.


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