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-   -   The real cost of IRAQ: PTSD and the second war (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=7566)

Schrodinger's Cat 01-22-2005 01:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad
Cat, I have heard this argument applied over and over again and I still don't get it, please clarify: "If the US doesn't apply humanitarian principles to every single conflict in the world then it is not applying them in Iraq." How does this follow?
The US did not start the war in Iraq on humanitarian principles. The rationale for our invasion of that country was that Saddam was stock-piling a weapons arsenal which included WMD's. When this motive was found to be a false one, the spin doctor's suddenly began to talk about "spreading democracy," and how we were saving the Iraqui people from a greater evil. The problem that I have is with the hypocrisy that we went into Iraq in the first place out of humanitarian concern. Saddam's reign of terror was an excuse, but not the true REASON for the US invasion.

tw 01-23-2005 12:00 AM
We should not forget the US attacked Saddam because Saddam was a terrorist. Now that the terrorism argument is becoming thread bare even among the George Jr supporters, we now have a new spin. The War on Tyranny.

Most notable are the questions being asked by the BBC. The spin doctors are now planning the spin on Iran. Remember the list. The US announced intentions to attack Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. Apparently we are actively sending special forces into Iran to identify targets. Based upon base construction and troop movements, this invasion would happen on or after 2006.

If you were Iran, what would you be doing? Building every weapon of mass destructions possible. Unfortunately, this just plays into the spin doctors plans. They will claim we had to invade Iran because they are building WMDs. Why is India and Pakistan exempt? That's what spin is all about. Forget the inconsistencies. Iran is a threat to the United States. We now call it a War against Tyranny. New words. Same old spin - that works.

Undertoad 01-23-2005 09:16 AM
Cat, I have heard this argument applied over and over again and I still don't get it, please clarify: "If the US doesn't apply humanitarian principles to every single conflict in the world then it is not applying them in Iraq." How does this follow?

Undertoad 01-23-2005 09:21 AM
Cat, what if they did give different reasons before the war and you weren't listening? edit to say: my point all along, starting from before you got here, has been if you want to hate Bush and the neocons, hate them for the right reasons.

Bush at the AEI in February 2003
Quote:
There was a time when many said that the cultures of Japan and Germany were incapable of sustaining democratic values. Well, they were wrong. Some say the same of Iraq today. They are mistaken. The nation of Iraq--with its proud heritage, abundant resources and skilled and educated people--is fully capable of moving toward democracy and living in freedom.

The world has a clear interest in the spread of democratic values, because stable and free nations do not breed the ideologies of murder. They encourage the peaceful pursuit of a better life. And there are hopeful signs of a desire for freedom in the Middle East. Arab intellectuals have called on Arab governments to address the "freedom gap" so their peoples can fully share in the progress of our times. Leaders in the region speak of a new Arab charter that champions internal reform, greater politics participation, economic openness, and free trade. And from Morocco to Bahrain and beyond, nations are taking genuine steps toward politics reform. A new regime in Iraq would serve as a dramatic and inspiring example of freedom for other nations in the region.

It is presumptuous and insulting to suggest that a whole region of the world--or the one-fifth of humanity that is Muslim--is somehow untouched by the most basic aspirations of life. Human cultures can be vastly different. Yet the human heart desires the same good things, everywhere on Earth. In our desire to be safe from brutal and bullying oppression, human beings are the same. In our desire to care for our children and give them a better life, we are the same. For these fundamental reasons, freedom and democracy will always and everywhere have greater appeal than the slogans of hatred and the tactics of terror.

richlevy 01-23-2005 11:21 AM
Quote:
Arab intellectuals have called on Arab governments to address the "freedom gap" so their peoples can fully share in the progress of our times.
How does Bush expect the Arab governments to listen to Arab intellectuals when his administration doesn't listen to intellectuals on science and social issues when their warnings conflict with preconceived notions or may impose limits on industries which are key sources of campaign funding?

Undertoad 01-23-2005 04:02 PM
The Arab intellectuals will have AK-47s.

richlevy 01-23-2005 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad
The Arab intellectuals will have AK-47s.
No, if GWB is in their corner they will have M-16's with filed-off serial numbers.

xoxoxoBruce 01-23-2005 06:59 PM
Quote:
There was a time when many said that the cultures of Japan and Germany were incapable of sustaining democratic values. Well, they were wrong. Some say the same of Iraq today. They are mistaken. The nation of Iraq--with its proud heritage, abundant resources and skilled and educated people--is fully capable of moving toward democracy and living in freedom.
What I think this guy is overlooking, or at least discounting, is Germany was all Germans and Japan all Japs. Iraq is more like the city dog pound. They're all dogs but more different than alike. :confused:

Schrodinger's Cat 01-23-2005 10:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad
Cat, what if they did give different reasons before the war and you weren't listening? edit to say: my point all along, starting from before you got here, has been if you want to hate Bush and the neocons, hate them for the right reasons.

Bush at the AEI in February 2003
As I recall, the sequence of events was not 9/11 immediently followed by an outpouring of sympathy for the Arab world and a "by golly, all those poor folks really need is democracy" attitude. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Hell, I have no problem with ANY country having a democracy, if that's what their people want. Even the US can have a democracy for all I care, although Bush seems to disagree with me.

The example of Germany becoming democratic is a little disingenuous. Germany WAS a democracy before Hitler used a combination of fear and brute force to turn it into a dictatorship.

Undertoad 01-30-2005 09:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad
I guess we'll know in 9 days. How high does the voter turnout have to be to show they want Democracy?
Well?

jaguar 01-30-2005 10:05 AM
Personally I'd say around a 1/3 or so. The problem is that 1/3 could be pratically every shia and no sunnis...

xoxoxoBruce 01-30-2005 10:26 AM
UT, how can you be sure a high or low turnout is indicative of the Iraquis desire for democracy? Can’t there be other scenarios playing out?
For instance:

1-The Iraquis have been forced into a position where they have to participate in the process or the US will remain and the violence will continue to kill innocent bystanders.

2-The Iraquis have been forced to vote for the representation they want in order to prevent being ruled by the people the US chose.

3-The Iraquis have been brainwashed into believing that if they vote suddenly everything will be OK.

4-A hundred other scenarios stemming from personal experiences.

You may be right.....but I’m leery of such an over simplification. :confused:

Undertoad 01-30-2005 11:47 AM
Just ask 'em! buzzmachine has a summary of the reaction on Iraqi blogs.

Quote:
The best Eid I ever had.

This was my way to stand against those who humiliated me, my family and my friends. It was my way of saying," You're history and you don't scare me anymore". It was my way to scream in the face of all tyrants, not just Saddam and his Ba'athists and tell them, "I don't want to be your, or anyone's slave. You have kept me in your jail all my life but you never owned my soul". It was my way of finally facing my fears and finding my courage and my humanity again....

As I got out it was still early and I saw no one on the streets but as I got near to the voting center I started seeing people in groups heading the same way. Most of them were women. I saw a crippled man and my old neighbor and his older wife leaning on their walking sticks going to vote. An old woman cleaning her door step stopped me, "Say son, can I go and vote?" She asked after she saw many people going to vote. "Sure Khala (aunt)! Everyone can". She thanked me and went inside apparently to change and get her IDs....

This was the same place I went in 1996 to cast my vote in a poll asking if we wanted to have Saddam as a president for life or not. I had to go at that time. The threats for anyone who refused to take that poll were no less than the death penalty....

This time we went by choice and the threat was exactly the opposite. As I was walking with many people towards the center explosion hit and gun fire were heard but most were not that close. People didn't seem to pay attention to that. Some of them even brought their little kids with them! It's like the Eid but only a thousand times better....

The only things I can feel so strongly now are hope, excitement, pride and a strange internal peace. I have won my battle and I'm watching the whole Iraqis winning their battle too. I'll try to write to you later my friends.
A'ash Al Iraq, A'ashat America, A'ash Al Tahaluf. (Long live Iraq, long live America and long live the coalition)

Undertoad 01-30-2005 11:50 AM
http://messopotamian.blogspot.com/

Quote:
Greetings Friends,

I bow in respect and awe to the men and women of our people who, armed only with faith and hope are going to the polls under the very real threats of being blown to pieces. These are the real braves; not the miserable creatures of hate who are attacking one of the noblest things that has ever happened to us. Have you ever seen anything like this? Iraq will be O.K. with so many brave people, it will certainly O.K.; I can say no more just now; I am just filled with pride and moved beyond words. People are turning up not only under the present threat to polling stations but also under future threats to themselves and their families; yet they are coming, and keep coming. Behold the Iraqi people; now you know their true metal. We shall never forget the meanness of these bas…s. After this is over there will be no let up, they must be wiped out. It is our duty and the duty of every decent human to make sure this vermin is no more and that no more innocent decent people are victimized.

My condolences to the Great American people for the tragic recent losses of soldiers. The blood of Iraqis and Americans is being shed on the soil of Mesopotamia; a baptism with blood. A baptism of a lasting friendship and alliance, for many years to come, through thick and thin, we shall never forget the brave soldiers fallen while defending our freedom and future.

This is a very hurried message, while we are witnessing something quite extraordinary. I myself have voted and so did members of my family. Thank God for giving us the chance.

Salaam for now

Undertoad 01-30-2005 11:58 AM
http://hammorabi.blogspot.com/2005/0...raq-great.html

Quote:
Today only we may announce the victory!

Today we hit back in the heart of the terrorists and the tyrants!

Today is the day in which the souls of our martyrs comforted!

Today those who were killed in Iraq or wounded among our friends from the USA and other allies, who helped us to reach this day, are with us again to inscribe their names with Gold for ever!

Today we challenged the killers and terrorists and foot on them with our shoes!

Many people walked long distances to vote in a most civilised way!

People asked for more time to enable them to vote!

One woman was crying because she can not reach the requested polling station to vote!

In many parts the police helped citizens to take them with their cars to the polling stations!

As we expected the enemies of God and freedom send their mentally retarded cockroaches in some suicidal attacks.

On the top of our privileged today are those who were killed in their way for voting. Their names should be perpetuated for ever! Their names should be written in Gold in Al-Fordos Square in Baghdad!

Our thanks go to George W Bush who will enter the history as the leader of the freedom and democracy in the recent history! He and his people are our friends for ever!

At this moment the voting closed and we will see the results then!

God bless Iraq and America.


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