Feel better physically today, so it was just a hangover.
Once all the alcohol leaves my system I'll see if there are any lingering nasties.one of the things I worry about is sorting out my sleep pattern. Last night was awful! I know once I do things will be much batter as I'll be getting restful sleep.

Weighed myself today.
Good news - I don't weigh as much as I thought.

Like the inverse of taking drugs ... You feel better when you are on them and then think "Oh heck I'm fine I don't need them anymore. You stop taking them and start feeling poorly physically, but more so mentally.
Same thing with drinking or taking "illegal" drugs (any addiction really). One stops for awhile and starts to feel better and thinks just one or just on special occasions or or or ... YMMV
rinse recycle repeat... till one decides No mas.

Personally, its been about 10 years since I've done coke or weed. I STILL think at times that I'd like to do it again - just a little or whatever... Just catch a buzz and chill for a lil while. :headshake
Then I breath deep and keep moving on. Distract myself and think about my kids, family, friends ...

I feel the same way about a ciggie, classic. I haven't smoked since last July, but I still feel the urge. It's almost a casual feeling. I just had a tasty meal, now a good smoke would really cap it off.

Oh yeah, right. That was Brian. Pam doesn't smoke because she wants to LIVE! And mixing nicotine and estrogen is a recipe for a stroke or PE. And I surely don't want THAT!

Then the urge passes.

I'm with ya, Sundae. Go for sobriety.

thanxxx sir I didn't realize it had been that long, Griff. Congratulations again.

I've heard that the usual craving for illicit substances or even litcit ones (cigs, booze) lasts about seven minutes.


It can feel very urgent, very RIGHT NOW! - but it will pass. I have been known to give in, though, in those awful seven minutes. It only takes that long for me to get to the liquor store. :(

But I'm on the water wagon. I feel much better when I am.

I"m really not afraid of drinking and dying - I'm afraid of drinking and NOT dying.

Something for Sundae from James McMurtry:

My thoughts were gnawing at me
So I tried hard not to think
I took a pint of whiskey
And poured it down the sink
I'd get my act together
I swore it to myself
I looked up at your picture
And I knocked it off the shelf

(chorus)
Every little bit counts
Every little bit counts

Too little too late, sorry
Too little too late for me
I tried and I tried and I tried
to be so good
Wanted to be good so bad
I tried and I tried and I tried
every trick I could
'til I'd emptied out the
whole damn bag

I'm no longer choking on
the hair of the dog
It's been a couple of weeks now
since I came out of the fog
The highs are slightly higher
And the lows are just as low
A mild improvement on the
average even so
Every little bit counts

Every little bit counts
Though it may not count for much
They could be long forgotten
By the time you add'em up

Thanks Griff.

I really identified with that tune when I was first breaking up with alcohol. Oddly, I couldn't find it on youtube. McMurtry really delivers it.

Bump time!


How are folks going?

I'm doing ok. New sponsor. Trying. Trying. Always trying.

From and including: Saturday, 13 June 2009
To and including: Thursday, 29 March 2012

It is 1021 days from the start date to the end date, end date included

Or 2 years, 9 months, 17 days including the end date

Alternative time units
1021 days can be converted to one of these units:
■88,214,400 seconds
■1,470,240 minutes
■24,504 hours
■145 weeks (rounded down)

Thanks for the 'bump' Zen. It's a while since I last looked at timeanddate.com, if you'd posted three weeks ago I could have celebrated a 1000 day anniversary!

I hope everyone is doing well.

Rhianne, go binary!

2 to the 10th is 1024, so in another three days, you get a big milestone!

I like that method of counting, Rhianne. Here's mine:

i don't see how you guys do it. but i'm fixing to find out.

ETA: or try.

Good luck with that philthy!

Seconded.

thx. i need it. this is not easy. then again, i knew it wouldn't be. i've already fallen. i'll get up and dust myself off and try again.

Good luck dude.

Terry Gross interviewed Anna Quinlin this week on her radio show. Anna's description of her relationship with alcohol was so close to mine it was a good check on the old we don't really have a problem voice.

day 8. still new at this so i'm anon for now.

Good luck with the try. Recognize the little victorys.

For all the animosity I harbor for 'having this disease' and 'having to treat it' via what is, essentially, witch-doctor/voo-doo medicine (how many other progressive, terminal diseases are treated with talk therapy and spiritual transformation?) I am always dying to get back to the way I felt before I relapsed. Feeling good in the morning, being in control of myself, NOT having the police come over, etc., is how I want to live/be. So why would I jeopardize that and all the good feelings I get for a drink that will only lead me down a dark and dangerous, potentially fatal, road??

That is the Big Question for alcoholics. Why? It makes no sense! It's insane! It's also part of the disease. And the best the medical community can say is, "Did you go to meetings?" that's their remedy.

Some day - I swear - there will be a real, lasting, medical cure based on science. They will find out what makes an alcoholic an alcoholic and de-activate whatever it is that does it. People will look upon the days when addicts were treated with 'meetings' and 'sponsors' the way we look upon the days when schizophrenics were chained up and beaten and deemed possessed by the devil.

It is insane. makes no sense at all. When I'm at work, I don't think about it. I'm too busy. However, when I'm at home doing whatever, there's that "trigger" that goes off in the back of my head that says "a beer sure would be good right about now." At least it doesn't last too long. When it does happen i quickly occupy myself with some task around the house. Whatever works, right??

Day 9. And I'm not drinking today.

hang in there, anon. like I said, when I'm in withdrawal, I'm dying to get back to sober!

My friends daughter has been in rehab now for several months. She has about 4 or 5 to go in the program run by the Salvation Army. Last Friday she came home for the weekend and I was sort of in charge of her because her Mum was away.

Anyway, her brother and I are pretty certain she snuck away from the footy game we were all at (junior match at an unlicensed venue) and took herself to the local pub for a couple of quick drinks.

Her counsellor says it's up to her to be in charge of herself at times like that and that it's not my fault, even if I do feel that I was supposed to be watching her. Anyway, when she went back to the facility and they did the usual urine and blood tests, she came up clean, so if she did slip, it can't have been much. Hopefully she wont do it again. If she does, she'll lose her privileges.

And that's exactly right. You can lead a horse to water so to speak. There is only ONE person that can help and that is themselves. Sure, the state can make you go to AA or family can put you in rehab but all that does is cause rebelliousness and animosity. It absolutely will not work unless that person has made the conscious, determined decision to quit. Quitting is easy. I've done it a thousand times. It's staying on track that's the hard part.

Another thing that gets me, and I'm guilty of it too, is listening to an alcoholic or user say "the next time I drink/use I'm going to do it different." Really? And just what was it you did before that was different from now? You wound up right back in the same place, the same misery, the same loneliness (insert fucked up situation here).

The way out of the above scenario is to NOT go back and try to do it differently. Don't go back at all. I/we can't. God I hope I don't.

A very dear friend of mine has over 3 years sobriety. He'd "lecture" me when i was hung over, or so I thought he was but he really wasn't. He'd tell me things that I already knew. Didn't want to hear them, but I did listen. And I watched. I watched how he was living now as opposed to before. There is a light about him. A proud, I am ME attitude about him. Healthy, vibrant, full of life etc..... I want that. I miss that. I still haven't told him about my decision. Hell I've only told I think 2 people. I don't trust myself. I am stubborn. Very stubborn as a matter of fact.

Two more weeks and I'll come clean.

day 9, in like flint. :)

It is TOTALLY not your responsibility to keep her sober, Ali.


that is all up to her. Don't waste a minute wondering about it. She makes her choices.

This girl is 25, so you're right Bri, she is responsible for herself. She agreed to go to rehab because she has a daughter who was taken from her by the girls father and the courts because of her drinking.

Anyway, onwards and upwards. No one's perfect. I just hope she can stick to her guns and win the battle. She's so much nicer even after only a few months sober. She was just a total bitch before she started rehab.

btw anon, keep up the good work. If others can do it, so can you. :)

Bri, have you ever had a doctor suggest Naltrexone? I don't have any idea how appropriate or effective it would be in your situation, but I was reading about it recently. Disrupts the opiate receptors in the brain so you fundamentally don't get the high from just about anything that's supposed to make you high. Doesn't work for all people though, just like everything.

Yeah, I've even been on it. I've even tried the oldie goldie Anabuse! the only problem with those things is that --- you can always just stop taking them. Which is what I would do. It was suggested to me that trying to control my alcoholism from the outside (from somewhere outside myself) was always going to fail. If I wanted to drink badly enough, nothing could stop me. I joke that you could airlift me to another country where I don't speak the language, have no money and am hungover to the gills and I could be drunk in half an hour. If an alkie wants to drink, they're going to drink. We could find Jim Beam in the Sahara. There comes that critical time where the only thing that stands between an alcoholic and a drink is their desire to stay sober---some say it's their relationship with their higher power, some say it's their spiritual condition....whatever. At some point you just have to decide what you want.

Long answer! sorry! I'm on my high horse and it's only 7:30 in the morning! better climb down! :)

If your desire to stay sober can stand between you and a drink, you're not an alki. You are a person who can not drink. If you can decide what you want and decide not to drink, you are not an alki. You are a person who has found a sufficient reason to not drink, and decided to not drink.

I'm an alkie, regular.joe. A real one - not those kind on TV. If I do NOT take the first drink, I'm ok; if I take a drink --- all bets are off and I could wind up anywhere - even dead.

What is it that stands between you and a drink if not your desire to live a better, sober life?

Oh, wait. I'll bet it's GOD. One persons Higher Power is another person's Oak Tree.

Bri, dont worry about being on your high horse. Your sharing is much appreciated.

saying I'm not an alcoholic is really rather...funny to me.

That's the first time someone has ever suggested that I'm NOT one.

:lol:

I tried that road of living life on my desire to live a better life sober. Got me nowhere. If that works and continues to work for you, my hat is truly off. I really do think that is great.

Well. then how do you stay sober? I cannot simply say, "God, keep me sober today!" read a meditation and then go about my day only to come home at night, say "thanks, god!" and close my eyes.

I go to meetings. I have a sponsor. I read literature (AA and other inspirational) I talk to people and I go to a therapist every two weeks. All those things are wonderful and helpful but there have been times when I could get no one on the phone, there was no meeting to run to and I drove to the liquor store. I sat in the parking lot going over my last detox in my mind, with all the detail I could muster.

Then I drove away. I decided not to drink. How is that NOT alcoholic?

If going over your last detox will keep you sober forever, then I'll maintain you are a heavy drinker who has found a sufficient reason to stop. If on the other hand there will come a time when you will not be able to muster the where withall to not buy the next bottle, if that is inevitable...coupled with what you have already told me, that you will be off to the races (we call this the phenomenon of craving), you are an alcoholic.

Going to meetings, having a sponsor, reading aa literature and talking to people will not spell the necessary relief. The only reason I read AA literature is to know what is says so that I can do what it says. The AA program is designed to be, and must be practiced independent of meetings. So, how do I stay sober??? I don't have to, the problem has been removed with no thought or effort on my part. First I made a decision to turn my will and my life over to the care of God as I understand him. Then I painstakingly, and precisely followed and continue to follow the directions outlined in our book. I get it, I didn't buy what I thought was snake oil to begin with either. It came down to one of two choices for me, blot out my life to the bitter end, or seek spiritual aid. Now, I ask for inspiration to meet the things that I don't know how to handle, for intuitive thoughts and decisions, for freedom from my self will. All day every day. I have had, and continue to seek after experience with the God of my understanding who handles this problem for me. I am a recovered alcoholic, I go to meetings to try to pass this information on to the next real alki who is sitting confused amongst a whole lot of people who apparently can decide to not drink anymore and just go to meetings and read inspirational books.

wow. If I wasn't spiritually fit today I'd say you're a real dick, regular.joe.

Kidding!

SO - what you're saying is that while I simply ape the program you LIVE the program. You've had the elusive Spiritual Experience! Good for you. But do me favor, will you?
Keep coming back because your humility quotient could use some tweeking. If you were trying to diss me by intimating that I "sit confused....JUST go to meetings and read inspirational books" that's pretty high handed of you.

What's that saying?

Oh, yeah: Live and let live.

And to even suggest that my way isn't the real way and that I am not a "real" alcoholic tells me you know virtually nothing about me. I'll bet if I saw you in a meeting I'd steer very clear of you and your chest thumping.

Peace be with you - but I don't have to be.

I think we all need to accept that people are impacted by alcohol in different ways. Maybe we need to get over labels if they're getting in the way. The Alki® experience can be different. I wouldn't want Bri's experience as the spurs are in pretty deep. My experience has been less traumatic but I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I have no need for a label, you can have it, but I still can't have a drink. I simply can't. Reading back through this thread, I see my post about Anna Quinlin having a very similar relationship to alcohol as I do. For both of us it is wound up in Roman Catholic bullshit so naturally I'm not going to embrace any God® driven way of dealing with it. If God works for you keep with it, but understand that for some of us putting the responsibility on something other than ourselves is what got us into difficulty in the first place. If you want to limit your personal definition of alcoholism to people with the exact experience as you, fine enjoy your club, but minimizing others pain is pretty goddamned selfish.

Ah, that's a problem I always forget to consider--I always think of meds in terms of just holding them down and making them take it. :) No worries about high horses, I don't see you that way at all. I am glad you are willing to share so much of your story.

True on all counts, not humble, arrogant, and people do avoid me at meetings.

I don't think I've been clear though. I've really only put out the definition of alcoholic as outlined in our book. If when you drink you develop the phenomenon of craving, and if at certain times you can't bring to consciousness with sufficient force the reasons not to drink and you drink again setting in motion the phenomenon of craving, well you are alcoholic. We either fit this description or not. This is not a self description, it's clearly outlined in our literature. If this is arrogant of me, and lacking in humility then so be it. I am tired of watching alkies die around our fellowship. Four this year alone, one suicide, one drunk driving fatality, two alcohol poisoning. The were meeting makers, sponsor callers and book readers. They all said, and hung with the crowd that said they could do this with out some kind of God, that they could just play the tape through and gut it out a day at a time. They spent a lot of time "working on themselves".

I've already told you and I really did mean it that if going to meetings and participating in group therapy, talking with your sponsor, reading our literature, and finally thinking about the details of your last detox will keep you sober...I"M REALLY HAPPY FOR YOU. There are a small number of us, at least by my reckoning, that the only relief is provided by Providence, Higher Power, Spirit of the Universe, Creative Intelligence of the Universe...what ever you want to call it. It ain't an oak tree or a door knob. You have made it clear that you can do with out this Thing. My hat is off to you, truly. I would ask that you be careful, because my message that a certain population of us can only recover through the growth and maintenance of a spiritual experience will not kill you. I get it, it pisses you off....the arrogance! The fellowships message that I can recover by doing anything but, will kill a guy like me.

You've been very clear. You seem to think the mantle of alcoholism is limited by your own narrow definition. Perhaps you did not read my previous posts closely - or even at all. I DO subscribe to a spiritual transformation - but I do not believe 'god' will/can keep me sober. I've got to do what I've got to do to remain vertically connected to my Oak Tree - which, if you knew anything at all about HP, you'd know that I CAN TOO HAVE AN OAK TREE FOR MY HP! So there, you pedantic thumper! Nyah!

I, in fact, canNOT do without this "thing" - I NEED my meetings to combat the isolation and craziness of my own head. I NEED my sponsor and literature to supplement my days with positive, life-affirming messages. YOU have made it plain that YOU've been "touched by an angel" and no longer suffer the problem of alcoholism. YOU ARE CURED! Good for you. Now kindly allow those of us who are striving for the kind of perfectionism you have achieved in peace.

And your use of "OUR" literature is offensive. The literature is for anyone WHO HAS A DESIRE TO STOP DRINKING. In fact, that's the only requirement for membership - or do you control that, too?

It's people like you who run off all the baby newcomers. You freak them out with your nuttiness.

btw - if your problem has been removed, why bother with meetings at all? To enlighten dumbfucks like me? You've got it all figured out. You should try to package and sell that stuff.

I find it rather insulting that anyone would minimize and dismiss the struggles that I (and Bri, I'm sure) go through to remain sober. It has taken an enormous amount of strength and willpower to remain sober.

To look down your nose at another person who has accepted their alcoholism and who is doing what they need to do in order to get/stay off the booze is incredibly offensive. Who are you to decide who is a "real alkie" and who is merely a heavy drinker who is confused and not currently drinking? Really? :eyebrow:

I am not religious. I do not believe in 'GOD" as some entity that oversees the universe. However, I am spiritual and I firmly believe that I can accomplish whatever I choose with my willpower and inner strength.

You have NO idea the things I've survived in my life. But I know that, since I managed to survive those things, that I can say no to the bottle and not pick it back up. If I want to badly enough. And so far, my will to live is winning over my desire to destroy myself.

Because every day, I find an excuse to drink. And every day, I remind myself of the reasons not to.

Right now, today, I've been sober for 3258 days.

Just wanted to give my support to you guys who are trying! I have family and friends who have problems but don't want the change (yet? I can always hope) so it felt really good in an odd way to hear your stories about trying to change or stop. I can't offer any advice since growing up with so many alcoholics has kept me from drugs/alcohol but I'm MORE than happy to offer support and thank yous' on behalf of your friends and families. I can't imagine how hard it must be, thank you for having the strength and courage to try in the first place.

Four people died. And you didn't say "I could have helped find something more meaningful for them." You said "They fucked up by not finding the meaning that I did. I did my part... I told them they were not going to succeed without MY meaning."

And they failed, and now they are dead... and you take their deaths as proud proof you were right.

For your sake, I hope your God judges this situation differently than I have done.

I am very saddened, even a bit angry that four men and women that I've known this year have died of alcoholism. They died, in part, because they partook in a therapy for alcoholism that at best has a 10% recovery rate. They participated in this therapy in a fellowship that allows membership to just about anyone; which I think is amazing and would never want to change. While rejecting the core tenants and most of the practices of the same recovery program that the fellowship they are a member of espouses to and in fact was created by. A program that at best has a 60% recovery rate. If this makes me the bad guy in this whole thing, then I will take that.

I don't have the mantle of alcoholism, I'm just another drunk. I do know the differences between the messages that can be talked around our amazing fellowship. I have over 20 years of experience watching the effectiveness or lack there of, of the various and sundry practices found around the AA fellowship. We are given absolute freedom within the confines of the Third Tradition, and the Program is suggested. So, please..please, go to meetings, talk about your problems, read the literature, bring into your consciousness, when you need to, how bad that last drunk was. I sincerely hope this works for you, and if it does I am very happy for you indeed.

What if, Joe, what if you simply do not believe a God of any kind exists?

Dana, fortunately there are many other philosophies of life, therapies, and manners of living that don't require beliefe in and reliance upon some kind of God. Please remember that I do not advocate denying membership in the AA fellowship to anyone. Ever. I advocate telling the truth of what the AA Program is and how the AA program describes alcoholism which leads to the AA Programs solution to alcoholism, especially as it differs from the message found at large in the AA Fellowship.

Oh come on. Being a member of AA does not guarantee sobriety any more than NOT being a member of AA is guarantee of failure.

Who said that being a member of AA guarantees sobriety?

joe is just saying that HIS brand of sobriety works 100% and those foolish enough not to follow his good example, well...sometimes they die.

Keep coming back, joe.

I hope and pray that I do get to keep coming back Bri. I'd like to summarize a few things as I see them, at least this morning.

Bri did ask me "how do you stay sober?" I answered very honestly, by the response, I am thinking that you did not really want my honest answer. I cannot change the facts of my own life, my answer stands as it is today.

To repeat myself I'll quote from my past posts:

"If that works and continues to work for you, my hat is truly off. I really do think that is great."

"if going to meetings and participating in group therapy, talking with your sponsor, reading our literature, and finally thinking about the details of your last detox will keep you sober...I"M REALLY HAPPY FOR YOU."

"please..please, go to meetings, talk about your problems, read the literature, bring into your consciousness, when you need to, how bad that last drunk was. I sincerely hope this works for you, and if it does I am very happy for you indeed."

I am at a loss on how to express in a different mannor my happiness that you are staying sober. That the method of your doing so differes from mine is of no consequence to me, other then as a source of honest discussion.

so, I've said my peace, I wish you and stormi both well. My sincerest appologies if I've offended you both. May God as you understand God bless and keep you both as you trudge the road of happy destiny. If I am as sick, narcissistic, and intolerant at you are suggiting I am then I can certainly use your prayers as well. I'll be taking a break from the thread for a while I hope to see you around the cellar at least.

Just in case you havent left yet, that wasn't the part people objected to, or found offensive. It was the bit where you claimed that someone who was able to say no to a drink without giving themselves over to God isn't really an alki. That was the bit. Where you diminished someone else's experience of alcoholism because they'd found something that works from within themselves.

I daresay it wasn't meant in anoffensive way. it was probably meant to be supportive. But that isn't what came across.

And you are bringing it up again because...? Just let it go.

Because I wanted joe to understand what had caused offence. Since he clearly didn't. As he said he was 'at a loss' how to better express his happiness that bri was staying sober. Just thought it worth letting him know that wasn't where the problem lay.



And what are you anyway? The thread police? :p

I think the message was received. I thought he was gracefully trying to convey that he was "happy" for them and he apologized. What more do you want from him?

Yes I'm the Dana thread police. I'll follow you everywhere just to make sure you're being naughty & not nice.

Honestly, I think the wrong message was received. And, yes, he was gracefully trying to convey exactly that and that's good. But he clearly didn't have a clue about what had sparked stuff off. In which case this whole thing must seem arbitrary and out the blue. And that's a shit way to leave it.

I picked up my third year chip last May. I don't go to as many meetings as I did three years ago, but I still go to meetings. I don't read the Big Book much because I find it out-dated and stilted. Good grief, they still hang on to that chapter called "To Wives." Give me a break. AA started out as very much of an old boys' club. Bill Wilson was a stock broker and Dr. Bob was - well, a doctor. Some meetings in the early days wouldn't even allow a female alcoholic through the door. One woman writes about standing in the hall outside of the meeting trying to hear what was going on.

Some people treat that damn Big Book as if it were directly dictated to Bill W. by god. It's simply a book written back in the 30's about the experiences of a hundred or so people trying to stay sober. The Big Book does have some good stuff in it if you disregard some of its more egregious passages. The fellowship of AA keeps me sober more than anything else. That and the knowledge that alcohol no longer works for me and will never work for me again. The memory of the hell of my last 2 years of drinking will never leave my mind. Not ever. Those awful memories keep me sober as well.

I don't have a personal "Higher Power" who keeps me sober. If someone else does, good on them. Alcoholism (and other addictions) is an extremely pernicious condition. Alcoholics are far more likely to die rather than recover, and many times relapse seems to be an almost random event. I've seen people who did everything by the book go out for no apparent reason and end up killing themselves. Other people seem like completely hopeless cases, never go to AA or treatment, never "get religion," but still sober up and stay that way for the rest of their lives. But people in this last catagory are still as sick as any other alcoholic.

No one absolutely no one deserves to become an alcoholic and they especially don't deserve to die of alcoholism. I have seen my share of good people give it their best effort and still fail. I never critisize them because there but for the grace of whatever go I.

Sam I agree with all of the above. A LOT of people treat the BB as though it were directly from God's mouth to Bill's ear. Well, Bill W. had a LOT of problems. Nobody's perfect. AA was started by two rich white guys whose wives stood by them thru it all - all the ugliness and all the nuttiness at the beginning of AA. Bill opened his (and her) home to alkies trying to get sober and one of them commited suicide in their bathroom...I wonder how Lois felt about THAT and who cleaned it up? (Lois, perhaps?)

I didn't need my ego broken down when I got to AA. It already WAS broken down. I needed building UP. Old Timers don't get that. and the chapter "To Wives" - ? ugh. don't get me started.

AA does a lot of good. It's not for everybody and it certainly could drag itself into the 21st century.

Bri. I just happened upon this article & thought of you.