Classic and TW, these latest are not showing the best of either of you.
Can each get some new thoughts - without personal attacks ?

Sure as long as its a two way street.

Why are all the liberal tit suckers suddenly worried about the freedom of religious expression when they continually hammer Christians? Just wondering.

Not being a tit-sucker myself, I'll leave that question to those it is directed at.
The 'rents' right wing paper is on the case now (as up to date as always!)
There were two letters yesterday from people saying it was an insult to the memory of those who died. One from someone who lost a son on 9/11. Really.

I drafted a letter in response, but caught myself in time. There's no point.

Not wanting to impose any degradation on any religion, I have to suppress my words but then this "religion" might be the most pathetic and useless term that human culture has raised. Its really bemusing to see a race of certain people compiling one of the largest religious group in the world fail to see that there's nothing sacred about shedding the blood. You don't kill in name of good. Plain, simple, full-stop. Perhaps we should have done better without "gods" and there "non-existent" interference with humans.

Its clear to see that the profound religions on earth are more a product of the politics than the divine interference of some brighter-than-stars entity. You don't have to go beyond wikipedia to notice this. And of course there are better research works if anyone is interested in details.
Perhaps the backward societies still have ample time to sit and wander and create there plethora of meaningless "jihads" when we are busy getting into the our daily races to win the bread. You may keep a man in desert with few others of his type with nothing to do. And besides eating, fucking and shitting, he will come up with his beliefs after a time. True if you go n hit him when he's still coming to terms with rest of the world, he will become angered. But then is this malice justified when the rage becomes meaningless fire in the wind.

The point is........they are not at all in the desert, they are not at all just eating, fucking and shitting around, they have got some logic inside their dated minds too. So how does it become so plaintively simple for them to spread violence everywhere?
Or is it greed that drives them. A dream to rule the world? And that too on the name of God. There's been crusades and jihads, wars and bloodsheds. Perhaps we will never learn.
Sorry guys if this has been like another one of my ramblings. But I have personal reasons to never forget that doom of 9/11.

The 9-11 crew, and many of the imported al-Qaida fighters in Iraq, seem to be recruited from middle class families. Teenage angst, and twenty something disappointment with what they see their lives ahead will be, I guess.

I coulda had class. I coulda been a contender. I coulda been somebody...

'Most any LTS will tell you that the 1st Amendment covers both activities. The thing is going to be on private property, we have no say. We all have a say about what they do in the public sphere. You've seen how worked up the LTSs get over Baby Jesus on the court house steps, just imagine the response if they tried to put burkas on our daughters. LTSs are your allies in this. Next time you see public dollars going to some Christian outfit and the LTSs get bent out of shape just replace First Podunk Christian Church with First Reformed Shiite Mosque and see if you're being consistent. We can kick Islams ass in the war of ideas but to do it we must remain true to our ideals.

Dear Griff

Well put, but I hasten to add that you underestimate, nay, overlook entirely the flexibility of such double standards. Every opinion that I've seen that opposes this building plan *IS* consistent, but the frame of reference doesn't extend beyond their own individual interests, despite dressing such interests in constitutional clothes.

Yours,

LTS #59,196,140

Irrationality is hammered. Christianity bears the brunt because there are more of them in the US, and they are more often the ones trying to make their religion into law. Any Muslim attempting to push for Sharia would (if he weren't simply laughed off the stage) be hammered just as hard.

In this case, what they are trying to do is build a properly zoned building on their own property. What's to hammer?

I've heard it will be visible from the WTC site. It won't. It's in the middle of a block on a road that does not intersect the site. If they ever build the tower, you probably will be able to see part of the roof, but that's true of most of Manhattan.

I've heard it will cast a shadow on the WTC site. It won't. At least one building between it and the WTC site is taller than it.

It's not even on a route to the WTC, unless you are zigzagging through the blocks.

I've heard it's too close. But mosques across the country are protested.

I've heard the guy in charge is a terrorist sympathiser. But he's been sent overseas by the US government as a goodwill ambassador. The quote used to paint him as a terrorist sympathiser is essentially saying that US foreign policy has made things worse in the Middle East.

The argument against the building could be used to say that a Baptist church shouldn't be built near a daycare center because some Catholic priests molested children, and Catholic priests are Christian, and so are Baptists, so the Baptist church is insensitive to area parents.

That's the best response yet, HM.

Seconded. I like thinking people.

HM, that was part of my drafted response (see above). I suggested that no Catholic churches could be built in Birmingham, Manchester, Omagh etc because of the IRA bombs there.

Good point, better made than my drafts anyway..

Well... Um... Ya think? :lol2:

This article has more to do with the recent flood that put 1/5 of Pakistan underwater but it has some relevance to the mosque debate. I am not posting it as a guilt trip but this flood has the potential to be a very large national security risk. If the US or Pakistan does not provide relief......guess who will (and has been).

http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/post..._help_pakistan

And maybe his presumption that the response has "not yet been commensurate", stems from the fact that the world can't afford it. And if he thinks Bush is so good at this shit, send him.

I am surprised, and I want to give Ron Paul credit for his statement today.
It is a long statement and I have sniped out quite a bit and added a few spaces for readability;
BUT IT IS ALL WORTH READING
( This being said by a flaming liberal who would not vote for Ron Paul for any elected office)

Ron Paul.com


<snip>
<snip>
<snip>
<snip>

Yeah, Ron Paul

I am thankful I am missing all this attention, wherever it is that its being debated.

I have heard compelling arguments that those conservatives fueling the mosque debate are specifically doing so to distract from the fact that they voted against a bill to provide medical care and support to 9/11 first responders who are still suffering from trauma they received at that time (like inhaling smoke and crumbling building dust.)

Ron Paul may be kind of a goof, but he is dead-on right with this statement:

link


I read another article how when the project was announced FOX News, along with the rest of the media, gave it there blessing. Four months later, Fox News stared stirring up shit. Methinks I smell politics.:eyebrow:

I'm sure Dwellars are tired of my posting about the Mosque, but please give me this one more without charge...
(Quote-formatting below is for readability only)

I was just watching a cable talk-show with NY Gov Petraki (sp ?) talking about the mosque in NYC.
His very strong position was the usual:
The very next topic was Glen Beck's crowd-gathering at the Lincoln Memorial planned for Saturday,
which is the 38th anniversary of Dr. King's "I have a dream" speech on the steps of that same Lincoln Memorial.
The talking heads argued that Beck had deliberately set his event to conflict with this anniversary.

What happened next was pure TV irony...
They had an interview with ML King Jr.,
and he started his remarks started with:
You can't make up this stuff... :D

:thumb:

Keeping the hate alive.

GAINESVILLE, Fla. — If building an Islamic center near ground zero amounts to the epitome of Muslim insensitivity, as critics of the project have claimed, what should the world make of Terry Jones, the evangelical pastor here who plans to memorialize the Sept. 11 attacks with a bonfire of Korans?

Team play continues.

It's kind of sweet that small minds have other small minds to play with, otherwise their grandiose beliefs might just fizzle out. :rolleyes:

Funny how the shoe isn't quite as comfortable on the other foot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I found the article very strange it seemed to jump all over the place without actually giving much information.

I hope he goes out there and burns thousands of them or his "followers" all over burn them and the idiotic press covers each asshole in their front yard with a gas can and a burning book.
Then the islamic extremists can go around to their houses and blow themselves up on the asshole's doorstep - Two birds with one bomb - rather fitting.

Kinda like one of your posts.

:thumb2::rotflol::beer:

Sounds like a good time to invest in Koran printers.

Well, at least he found the article! :lol:

Now, if you'll excuse me I have some fences to straddle and some asses that need my nose shoved firmly in them.

Ye gads, it's spreading...

I just heard on TV that the owners of the Empire State Building are complaining about a proposed new skyscraper because it will be so close and only 34 ft lower than the ESB and will block their view.

Of course, they have the right to build there but they should be sensitive to our....

The debate is giving some nutters something to fixate on.

This sounds like a psychotic episode.

As the cab inched up Third Avenue and reached 39th Street, Mr. Sharif said in a phone interview, Mr. Enright suddenly began cursing at him and shouting “This is the checkpoint” and “I have to bring you down.” He said he told him he had to bring the king of Saudi Arabia to the checkpoint.

Late in the article it mentions this, curiouser and curiouser...

Mr. Enright is also a volunteer with Intersections International, an initiative of the Collegiate Churches of New York that promotes justice and faith across religions and cultures. The organization, which covered part of Mr. Enright’s travel expenses to Afghanistan, has been a staunch supporter of the Islamic center near ground zero. Mr. Enright volunteered with the group’s veteran-civilian dialogue project.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A classic deflection to divert attention from one's own intolerance....a common practice of the right.

Much like another recent comment here about the "liberal tit suckers" war on christianity.

Small minds here do think alike.

Reminds me.

In the following photo, there are two large condos right next to each other in the middle of the photo. Two separate owners. The condo on the right, built first, has four rooms on each floor, each getting a separate direction to look out of. The condo on the left, built after, has one room to each floor. Notice how the side facing the first condo has no windows.

http://urban-photos.com/gallery/albu...ee_13_9325.jpg

Of course, they have the right to build there but they should be sensitive to our....

Almost like a "spite-fence"

How the heck are you supposed to peek at the neighbors in the next building without windows? Makes no sense :headshake

I can't make my mind small enough to think or believe alike with Redux. He's so proud of his superstitions and his ignorance of the Right. That pride in his ignorance, popular among that heavily Democratic group the KKK, denotes an inferior sort of mind. This is the kind of conscienceless guy who votes for Democrats.

Don't claim enlightenment around me, Redux. You for one cannot know it. Do you think you have it? -- well, you're not right, you're left.

I think this perspective sums it up very well...whether its Beck and the Tea Party crowd screaming "socialism" and "Obama is a racist" and "destroying the American way of life" or the anti-Muslim bigotry that is raging across the country:
You, sir, (and a few select others here - one who rages against the ""liberal tit suckers" war on christianity) repeatedly demonstrate the tantrum morality.

My suggestion....heed the advice offered:

How to get out of your own Moral Tantrum:

Pause. Breathe. Step back and look at yourself (often this is triggered when someone questions what you are doing). Pay attention to where you are and what is around you (right brain). Be self-reflective: Why am I trying to coerce? What am I afraid of? Is there a better way to persuade? How can I stay in a respectful relationship with this person?

Have a great day. :)

Under the constitution the state/goverment cannot tell anyone if they can build a church, mosque or synagogue,or even a lions club for that matter.

It would set a dangerous precedent. Case closed.

That said, there is something creepy about a mosque being build so close to ground zero, but if I were better educated I would understand I am just being an ignorant bigot.

Behavior in this thread has been poor. It is advised that we try to stay on the topic of the thread without addressing each other.

The constant reference to it as the "ground zero" mosque and the gross misrepresentations of the words and actions of the imam director of the community center in question by the right wing media and the opposition to the facility only spread ignorance and intolerance.

The result is the backlash against Muslim and other mosques across the country. Islamaophobia is not only counter to American values but dangerous at many levels.

Perhaps a visual will help:

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runnin...hk2o1_1280.jpg

Pause. Breathe. Step back and look at yourself (often this is triggered when someone questions what you are doing). Pay attention to where you are and what is around you (right brain). Be self-reflective: Why am I trying to coerce? What am I afraid of? Is there a better way to persuade? How can I stay in a respectful relationship with this person?

I realize you were posting in general, but since you posted to censor after pages of posts, I need to clarify.

I was talking about myself and it was no veiled judgment against another.

I really do find myself having irrational objections about a mosque being built so close to ground zero.I think it is insensitive. That said,I tell myself it is probably because I am an uneducated bigot.

I wonder if I educated myself about what Islam really is I would feel better about it. :rolleyes:

One does not need to education oneself about Islam to understand that many of the more vocal and vitriolic arguments against the building of this community center are based on demagoguing, fear-mongering and gross misrepresentation of the facts.

The "sensitivity" of building at this location (not within sight of Ground Zero) is another question but where do you draw the line?

If the mission of the community center is to encourage constructive engagement between Muslims, Christians and Jews and if the moderate imam in charge has a history of such bridge-building, does that not display sensitivity and a positive voice in the community?

When a vocal opposition (even if is the majority) ignores the facts and instead, act on emotion, we ultimately create separate standards of what is acceptable based on our own biases (against a race or religion) rather than what is right...and that is dangerous....because you (me or anyone of us) could be next group exercising our rights in a manner that might offend the sensibilities of others .

Not censor posts of fact or opinion, censure personal attacks. ;)

censure, yes. I used the wrong word. I thought about it too late to edit.

Mr. Redux would like us not to have a look at the character and history of the fellow ramrodding the Islamic Cultural Center project. Is he not a be-all-end-all advocate of Sharia law, just as -- or more than -- Redux thinks the Democratic Party is his be-all-end-all?

UG - I've asked this several times now ... without response, but I'll ask again.

What factual information do you have on this/these fellows?
I haven't seen a thing anywhere.

The facts are that the imam who heads up the community center has been sent to the Middle East by both the Bush and Obama State Departments on several occasions to help the US promote religious tolerance.

He has a long history of promoting religious tolerance and building bridges between Muslims, Christians and Jews in his writings and his actions.

His views are mainstream Muslim but have been twisted and vilified by the right in an ignorant attempt to justify their own intolerance.

But it's so offffffennnnnnnsivvvvvvvvvvvve. [/whine]

I have it on good authority that every single one of the 9/11 hijackers were men.

And yet. And yet. There are dozens of Men's rooms in the area around ground zero. Many sources are saying that one of the attendants is also a man. And that he's even been to training at a well known Hooters.

These buildings should be sensitive to the history of the area!

The horrors!

Pete says there are dozens of these Men's room in the area but we only have his word for it, he hasn't actually provided any evidence to support his statement.

Beck says it is not true. That proves it.

Pete, that bathroom sympathizer. Puh.

I have Crohn's Disease, so I have a bathroom dependency. :D

Another reason not to freak out.

http://i.imgur.com/jQELb.jpg

You gotta pull it outta refux's ass first.

Oh goody, I'm off ignore!

It's OK, pinocchio, one day you may turn into a real live boy.