Could you be any less clear? I don't think it's my reading comprehension that's at fault here, unless you're honestly calling the entire cellar too backwards to embrace trying to meet minimum standards of human decency, which is what it sounds like you're saying. and then saying i'm making life worse for somebody-or-other by calling oppression oppression? because that's too patently ridiculous even for you.

.

There, there. I don't want you to feel left out. I'm not sorry about your finger either. :)

You're boring me. Go away. I'm being entertained by Happy Monkey now. What can I say, I'm fickle.

So you admit you're just being a troll. And here I was hoping for actual intellectual stimulation. Such is life on the internet.

Admit nothing. Deny, deny, deny and counter accuse. You've got a lot to learn you dumb cuntless. ;)

Sexo, didn't you say you weren't going to respond to Ibs any more?
I thought that was a wise response.

Ibby I think you need to learn that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
I know you're doing it for a cause, but there's not much difference between visionaries and tyrants except history.
I don't think the Cellar is the right place for the battle you are fighting right now.

I took 6 years of French. Then I went to Montreal and found out it was worthless!

… I took classes that told me I should be, and taught me to recite it like poetry.

People with actual fear don't talk like that.

It just may be the perfect place. She's practicing...honing her skills. She is writing that paper, so she is really immersed in it right now. Some people are getting their nose really bent out of shape but that's ok, this is the cellar afterall, and she will take her lumps for it.
Her passion may be getting in the way of her common sense, but it is understandable to me.

So! You went to the real Canada and not the bullshit Canada! Good for you!

(yeah, the french they speak there is waaaaaay different. My mom spoke it for years with her sibs)

Pico, nice and that, but ... "she". :)

:facepalm:

Yup, she.

Have I told you lately how much I love you?
For a smart guy you sometimes cotton-on to things slowly.

The more you post Sexobon, the more your subtle humor reveals itself. :thumb:

Yes, "je me souviens" actually means "I buy souvenirs"

Allow me to clarify. I said that I wasn't going to intervene, not that I wasn't going to reply. It's whacko extremists like Ibby who refuse to have civil communication about anything with others whom they've judged to be impediments to their agendas. Nonintervention means I recognize that Ibby is at a place in her life where she treats people as resources to be strip mined to further her agendas and that for her the end justifies the means. I'm simply not going to be an enabler by communicating with Ibby at a level where she can glean insights into techniques that she obviously hasn't learned yet. It doesn't mean that I can't use her for my own entertainment, to which end my means are automatically justified, thus applying her standards for relationships back on her. I'm just a mirror: If Ibby doesn't like what she sees, she's always had the option of changing her appearance.

I was told it means "I don't tip".

True

Another micro aggression by the man, shame be upon you!

Really? My attack on you? I don't think I attacked any individual in any way. I called out what I see (and you may disagree) as negative condition in the cellar. I pointed out that all of us as individuals, including me, have behaved like assholes. If you perceive that as a personal attack, I'm sorry for your hurt, but not for what I said. In fact, if you really saw it as an attack I find that symptomatic of a trend in the cellar and in society as a whole.

Everyone is looking for a reason to be a victim. People go out of their way to find a way to be offended. Ibby is the poster child for this, nearly to the level of being a caricature.

Seriously, what the fuck. Merc is a truly intolerant asshat and said a lot of shit that was uncalled for. The fact his politics align more closely with mine than most other dwellars is irrelevant. Things he posted made me cringe and ignore the majority of what he said in the same way I do with TW. They are not dissimilar individuals. Is the cellar better or worse with him gone? I don't know, but he's probably better off being gone because this place didnt' bring out the best in him. I'm certain he would speak the same way to someone he had to look in the eye.

At the same time, we still have Ibram/Ibby, whatever, crying over shit that was written on a computer screen and ranting incoherently about his horrible life as a victim and if we're not with him we're against him. His blatant intolerance is somehow glorious and just because he is on the side of the angels. Fuck that. Ibby is an immature child surrounded by immature PC children afraid to tell him to shut the fuck up. He obviously takes college courses designed to strengthen his status as a victim so he has more soundbyte bullshit to throw at everything and everyone that gets within poo throwing distance.

So one of them is here and one of them is gone, is the cellar better? Nah, not really, imo. I would wager that right now there have been a few vultures circling this thread waiting to be offended so they can jump in with their own explanations of why they are hurt. Fair enough.

If that is how a person wants to spend their life then that's ok by me. The good news is there is always something to hurt your feelings floating around if you look hard enough. I just don't see the value in spending a life searching for righteous indignation in swirling sea of shifting opinions. Instead of being offended look to see if their is anything ANYTHING of value in a post or a person before grabbing your pitch fork and kindling.

Life can be fun, if you let it.

Well, I, for one, am pleased that this thread got Lookout to poke back in. That's an improvement right there.

How are you doing, Lookout?

Tril, I just formed a friendship with Merc for god knows what reason. It's always hard to pinpoint when a friendship begins or why. I do know that I had huge problems with him when he first came here and in particular, when he had his first real go at Ibram (he who was) all the way back years ago. I think it was in the relationships thread or something and there was something to do with BigV and Classic and their mutual relationship issues and there was a lot of shit slinging going on. Just saying this in case you want to go have a look at some of the horrible things that have been said between Merc and I in the past. I suspect you're probably not really that interested, but it's all there somewhere.

Like Bruce, I have friends on both sides of the political fence. I don't judge them for their beliefs and I often cringe when they say things I totally disagree with. Sometimes I respond, but more often than not I keep my thoughts to myself these days IRL, just as I do here as far as politics goes.

As far as not liking some of the things Merc has said, there have been quite a few times when I've said something to him privately about my views on his responses and how I think he's being cruel or harsh, but it's really not up to me or anyone else to tell any of my friends how they should behave. People travel their own path, and they'll usually do exactly as they please regardless of what others say.

I think what people like me have tried to say is that they see more than one side to Merc, and he's proven himself to have a very generous, kind and thoughtful side that he keeps hidden a lot under a pretty rough veneer. I've often wondered why he does that, but again, I guess he has his reasons and maybe I'll never know what they are, but I'm grateful for the care and concern he's shown me over the years and I wouldn't turn away from him just because he happens to be a dickhead from time to time. If I did that, I'd have no friends anywhere, and I like having friends, so I'll take the good with the bad. I know my friends aren't perfect, but they're trying and that means more to me than almost anything.

I hope this is in some way understandable. It seems a bit garbled to me, but I hope it makes sense somehow. lol

Are you kinda, sorta, maybe trying to tell us that your newborn could be Merc's?

haha...nope. His dick is not quite that long.

XoB should ask for DNA testing to make sure that you're only cheating with him and not cheating on him.

lol i think he knows who the father is.

@Classic: It's OK for you to come back to TheCellar now.
It has returned to the old place you seem to miss.

here

here

here

here

here

Now maybe Merc will feel comfortable and grace us with his presence too.

I believed she had already planned a camping trip.

Hah, mine is shorter than Mercs. :haha:

Not after Aliantha dumped him for xoB.

I luvz lamp!

I really feel there needs to be a "Jane, you ignorant slut" and a "Dan, you pompous ass."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jane_Curtin

;)

I find it difficult to pal around with someone who wants, philosophically, to buttfuck me in the mouth.

I have more respect for someone who is obnoxious in fighting bigotry than I do for someone who is obnoxious in supporting bigotry.

Well said, Trilby. Your whole post is applicable to this thread, too.






Ummmm. Well, maybe we can skip over the "cuddlefest" for now. ;)
.
.

Here's something I just thought of re: Merc and why I think he's a good person.

We've all used the phrase, actions speak louder than words; this is particularly illuminating with regard to my feelings about Merc. He says some really dumb stuff at times, and it honestly makes me upset, but his actions in many other areas far outweigh the petty crap he can sometimes say on this board. So, rather than using the above mentioned phrase to denigrate someone's attempt to fix things with words, I use it to applaud someone for demonstrating through their actions what the real person is all about.

Any light bulbs finally turning on yet?

mostly sexobon, orthodoc, griff, some of my other fellow parents and others... whatever. just thinking out loud here.

I have kids a little older (and one younger) than Ibby. I love them dearly. I know that's a cliche, it's still true though. That love has been around since before they were born, and I don't think there's anything that will ever change it. How that love is expressed, that changes with the circumstances. How I feel at a given moment toward them, that changes too. What I expect from them, also changeable. What I do for them, what I say to them, those kinds of things vary. I want the best for them always. I love them always, regardless.

All I have as their parent is my credibility. I've worked all their lives to build my credibility, to earn and justify their trust in me. Mostly I've succeeded, but it hasn't been a uniformly upward trend. And it's not the same in every area. Some things they're sure I know a lot about, some things they're sure I know nothing about. When they were younger, I did a lot more telling about stuff. I love the socratic method of teaching and I use it a lot; it's my first tool out of my bag usually.

But there are lots of things I've found that don't work when I'm trying, in good faith, in love, to teach my kids. Corporal punishment, that was probably the first tool they grew out of. They're too big to spank into compliance or comprehension, been too big for a long time. Because I'm the Daddy, tha's why force of personality, that's... those days are gone too. The older they get, the more sophisticated their capacity to reason, the more I've needed to persuade in order to teach. Persuasion's the key.

When I look at what it takes to persuade, that's when I notice that all I have is my credibility. If they believe me, if they trust me, they'll accept what I say. Ironically, even if I'm wrong, they'll still believe me, but maybe only temporarily until they learn better. And that's all exactly what I have striven for as their parent *all along*. Think for yourself. Be able to assess the quality of what you're hearing for yourself. Now, if I have that credibility, I'll start off with 'points', but I'd better be proven right in their experience or I'll suffer a loss of credibility and I'll have a harder time telling/teaching/guiding/helping them in the future. That's sad for me as their Dad because I always want to help.

These older critical thinkers, with their ability to reason and argue, without that credibility, they can't be *told* anything. In fact, until they start the conversation by asking for my input, the conversation is just like that teacher in the Charlie Brown cartoons "Waaaah Waaah Waaah Waaah". I'm reminded of the proverb "Teaching a student before they are ready is like hammering on cold iron."

I care for Ibby. Not like my child, I don't intend to patronize, but like a friend. She's entitled to her opinion about mercy, just as I am entitled to mine. I'm not interested in persuading her otherwise--we just disagree, we just have a different opinion about him. But when it comes to objective assessments, those are less open to interpretation.... anyhow, I'm rambling a bit. It is my observation that regarding most of the conversation here that is not directly about mercy, Ibby has vested more credibility in the sources he's privy to than he has vested in most of the posters here. We're hammering on cold iron.

V, I've read through your post a few times, each time hoping to eventually reach your conclusion.
Either I still don't get your meaning, or I come to a totally different conclusion.

For my part, I feel Ibby has been extremely self-giving and open to everyone here
about the road she travels, the standards she holds, and she still remains open for discussion.
She has posted more than just her opinions, she has tried to educate.
So, I feel more connected, and think I know more about Ibby as a person, than I do about many other Dwellars.

From the posted attacks most recently, and in the past, I feel Ibby has done remarkable well.
Her posts have remained civil, and her use of "oppressor" has proved well founded.
She has stayed with us in the face of some highly insulting diatribes.
I doubt I could/would want to stay long in the face of such abusive behavior.

It makes me wonder if a few Dwellars have a perception that Ibby somehow is a hidden threat,
or is it a holdover from some earlier Drill Instructor type mocking their own sexuality,
or is it only a belief in some sort of superiority that allows them to impose their will on another.

I'm left with a question that I haven't yet answered.
What gives justification to "hammer" in the first place ?

*applauding BigV* that's what I've been thinking all along, well not the children part, the hitting on iron part. I was thinking of a different expression, but same meaning all the same.

Lamp, my understanding of what V is saying is that young people are at times able to be *influenced but at others not, and that at this point, Ibs is not particularly interested in hearing from people here, that the way he goes about getting his point across at times is not helpful to his cause. Sorry, I mean her. I guess I could have gone back and edited the he's to she's, but left it as it was simply because for me, it's still a conscious effort to refer to Ibs in the feminine. ftr, it makes no difference to me other than the inclusion of an extra consonant. How people live their lives is really up to them unless it infringes on my rights or freedom. Clearly Ibs choices don't, so she can do as she pleases. Maybe that's what's really getting on some people's nerves. The lady doth protest too much?! In any case, I too have not felt the need to respond in any way for months about Ibs sexuality simply because I don't see any point. Ibs is doing what she needs/wants to do and nothing I do or say is likely to change that at this stage because she is clearly not too interested in hearing my opinion on it or how she's going about things. Why waste my breath? It wont change what she does in any way. Maybe down the track things will change. Till then, I think most of us here feel that it's best to leave Ibs to her own devices and live or die by her own hand.

*I'm pretty sure he means as mature adults, giving children the benefit of your experiences in the world thanks to having been around longer. Trying to help them make less mistakes etc, or to find an easier path.

BigV's words ring true to me. Maybe its middle child syndrome, but I see Ibby organizing a life filled with intentional conflict and otherizing based on the words of professional thinkers who are quite out of touch with the thoughts and language of those they seek to change.. gotta run

They gettin' PAID and TENURED. If you got a scam, work it, that's what I always say.

yeah. and they don't know how good they got it.

Nearly every tenured prof I knew hated students and wished us all dead. And those were the good ones. the other ones just didn't give a good goddamn.

I had one prof FREAK OUT and nearly get violent when a kid fell asleep in class. No wait...that was a priest and it was high school. Never mind.

The tenured professors in my uni are fucking awesome.

I didn't think his suggesting I kill myself was petty.

At the risk of making you angry ---- NO.

What sort of actions are we talking about here?

Giving preferred customers perks and goodies and money and gifts? Those kinds of actions? Or did Merc work for Doctors Without Borders or the Red Cross and was too shy to tell us all about it?

Y'know I really don't like the anti-intellectual flavour of some of the comments in here.

'professional thinkers who are quite out of touch with the thoughts and language of those they seek to change'.

'professional thinkers' who have studied and worked and sacrificed to get where they are and to build the understanding they have. What we know of their thoughts are filtered through to us from the understanding of their student. None of us know whether Ibs' professors are/were 'out of touch' with ordinary people and language. Don't confuse someone's academic understanding of a particular subject with their wider understanding of humanity.

They're not locked in at night. They are people in the world just like anybody else.

Well, I wasn't specifically referring to that comment. As I said, some of his comments made me angry or upset at times also.

It's ok, I'm not angry. Tbh, I'm not sure why I keep posting cause he's never coming back here, so there's really no point. I think I'm just trying to point out that quite a number of us have been touched by Mercs concern and or generosity. I'm not sure if he'd need to buy something for everyone or maybe donate everything he owns to charity in order to be considered a good person, and even if he did, I suspect that some people would still not care for him, and that's ok too. *shrugs* For whatever reason, I came to know some good qualities in the man and I think it's a shame he doesn't let more people see that side of him. God knows why, but that's just the way it is I guess. If someone does something nice for you, it's kind of arseholish to just ignore that in favour of being pissed off about something that was said - probably ill considered and impetuous - some time in the past.

I'm just telling it from my very own perspective because people seem to wonder why I feel the way I do, so I'm not really trying to convince anyone. Just telling the story from my end. :)

I'm interested to learn why those who now attack Ibby for her intolerance did not, to my recollection, ever attack merc for his intolerance.

merc pretty much got a pass.

UT called him out and so did Jim, and Infini, iirc.

but it was for big, huge things. everything else he said just...washed over everyone like a tide of muck.

Ali----merc certainly didn't need to give all his money to charity, etc., to be considered a 'good person' by me - that's ridiculous. but I DO see that the people he gave gifts to are the ones defending him the loudest. and that's bullshit. He didn't let many people 'see that good side of him' because he hated most of us. He hated me; he hated anyone with a liberal slant (which is why I found it confusing that you two were so tight) but, hey, IF he really isn't coming back, I'm glad. I found him to be a bully, a know-it-all and a provoker. He LOVED to sit back and watch a fight, usually one he started.

I see him as a negative force in the Universe and yes, I want a cuddlefest. I rather like warm and fuzzy people; not shrill haters. But hey, there's no positive without negative, is there? I found him angry, confused, bitter, mean for mean-ness' sake and very, very afraid someone would take away his toys.


That's how I saw it from MY end.

Yeah, remember the interminable :corn:

yes.

he fed on darkness. I used to do that, too.

it's much nicer out here in the light.

not so mushroom-y, dank and depressing.

lol you girls are so dramatic. :)

G'night!

:eyebrow:

I'm up for an Oscar for that role. :rolleyes:

That's not true, he was confronted for some things he said, others were just ignored rather than acknowledging. Attacking him for his general attitude would be like attacking Zip for his spelling, or tw for his soliloquies, it's part of his identity here.
I think I have a handle on why, where he came from, how hard he worked, and the smart choices he made, to get his comfortable lifestyle. And from eating all those dead rugby players.

Ibby is another matter, he seems to be developing a habit of telling me what I can and cannot say, or even think. Hommie don't play dat.:headshake

He was not attacked by the same people who now attack Ibby for the same thing, except maybe you.

No, spirited arguments but I don't attack anyone, except rkzenrage.

I didn't see Merc get a free pass. I saw him get embroiled in arguments that ended up with lots of people telling him off. I know I had a go at him many times over stuff he said. In particular stuff he said to Ibs.

Sure, xoB, what we say/post is up to each of us.
But that is what creates our own personal reputations.
It also has to do with respect for another Dwellar.

If Ibram asks to be called Ibby, is that so different than Brianna
asking to be called Trilby, and for us to use pronouns in sync with their names ?
If it is so difficult make such changes in our vocabularies ?

If that is so hard, should we assume there's more going on than just resistance to PC ?

With regards to what I "think", it seems to me that is exactly what Ibby is trying to change.
First, I don't assume that it's Ibby that needs to be changed by me.
Only with changes in my thinking will the changes follow in my own social behaviors, regardless of the current version of PC.

It's not drama, it's imagination.

:lol2:

I guess you are glad lil Pete didn't go to Bennington then?

If she chose Bennington, I'd have supported her in that. Every kid needs to find a place that serves her needs not her parent's. It didn't meet her academic needs. She's pretty conservative in her lifestyle choices, despite being very liberal politically. Her perception that the drug culture was pretty serious also turned her off.

Lamplighter--

first of all, the "hammering" is just a figure of speech, taken from the proverb I quoted, and taken from the tone of many of the posts addressed directly to Ibby. there's been plenty of hammering.

As for the justification to "hammer", I offer these reasons.

First of all, I'm entitled to express myself just as you are and she is. And we do all express ourselves around here. When that expression takes the tone of repeated, argumentative telling how to think and act, "hammering" is an apt description.

Next, speaking for myself, I felt some of the things Ibby said were wrong, and I wished to correct those things. For example, being intolerant of intolerance, but refusing to accept the idea such a position perpetuates the very thing she says she's trying to stamp out. Also, characterizing others, mercy in this case, as a one dimensional caricature, "an asshole" based on a subset of his words, while at the same time having a well established reputation for rejecting others' judgements of herself, claiming such labels were unfair characterizations. Another thing, rejecting the idea that allies are helpful, wtf? Making bigoted statements about the bigotry of others. Stuff like this.

So. It's hammering to the extent that our respective positions are in strong opposition to each other and it's justified because I care enough about Ibby and the subjects at hand to speak up.

As for the actual point I was trying to make, I don't think Ibby's interested in learning from me and others on these kinds of points. She's got a ton of input, and she's assessing it, and she's finding my input wanting by comparison. I can not shape her iron until she's ready.

What the fuck are you talking about, I don't give a shit if somebody changes their user name.
Now that's the rub. When he first started this feminization of Ibram, in here, he was throwing out all these categories and rules that everyone must follow or they being aggressive/oppressive of these groups.

First of all I'm not convinced there are that many subdivisions. Shit, everyone is a little different from everyone else, but everybody doesn't get to whine if people don't follow their personal set of rules. At least not and be taken seriously.

Second, I only know a couple people that fall anywhere in the spectrum, that I know of. The ones I do know is because they told me, and none asked for special treatment. We get along just fine without following any of Ibby's guide to acceptable behavior.
I don't want to change him, and he doesn't get demand changes of me.

TheMercenary might come back if a certain someone nominates him to be a moderator. ;)