Point well made, Brucey. Can we all move on now:confused:

You post it in a public forum, it is open for all to see, think about, and most definitely comment on.

I've seen you twist and turn comments over the past few weeks to make an innocent comment turn into something that someone is using as a 'weapon' against you. And you know what, that's just not fair to those of us who are _trying_ to be nice to you.

I've seen quite a few people offer you some advice on how to take the folks around here...those people have been around for a while, and they know the Cellar folks...a number of them have met personally. I've met a few of them personally myself. And I will guarantee you, if you're being attacked, you'll know it...simply because one of them will hand you your ass and make you thank them for the lesson you've just been taught.

So, do us all a favor, learn how to take a comment with a grain of salt, understand that it's NOT directed at YOU personally, and get a grip on things.

Shall we?

Dagney

The perturbed.

Oh, and in case there were any questions, that WAS directed at YOU personally.

I realize this is an open to the public forum, but if I specifically address a particular person by naming that person in my post I would thank you to not turn my comment to a specific person into a broad generalization and assume that that particluar comment is intended for you when it is obvious that I'm not directing it to you. I don't know what your fucking problem is, but unless I'm talking to you or addressing the entire Cellar, BUTT THE FUCK OUT!!! Every time I make a post there is some fuck head making some snide remark to me, which would be perfectly fine except that when I do the same exact thing I'm an asshole who doesn't know how to communicate, blah, blah, blah. Jesus Christ, you're turning me into a fucking Quzah who doesn't give a fuck what it says or how it says it. If that's how you like it than fuck you, that's how I'll do it. I've tried to put an end to this bullshit in a civilized manner, but apparently that doesn't work with you, DAGNEY. Don't you have better things to do with your time here than to give me a blast of shit every time I make a post. Go find someone else to bitch to, I'm getting sick of your crap and I've reached well beyond the point of being "perturbed", I'm fucking pissed now. If I "perturb" you so much than don't waste your time making posts to me or about me, go on about your friendly, nice way bringing your joyful commentary to someone other than me.

C'mon BUGZ, this is getting out of hand.
That statement was absolutely true and appropriate. I really don't see how you can take that as an attack on yourself even if it was directed at you.
You have as much right as anybody to blast away, but I would suggest you aim more carefully, because I love you and I want you to be happy. :D

Posts like this are exactly what I'm talking about. Bruce, I love you and you love me, I know, but why is it that *I'm* getting out of hand, why aren't you telling the people who continue to dwell on this matter that *they* are getting out of hand. If we could kindly move on to other things, that would be great, but as long as someone feels the need to talk shit, I'm going to dish it right back. The fact remains that I was talking specifically to Whit, who in his reply seemed satisfied with my comment (I believe we both were able to sense the sarcasm in the air), and I don't need Dagney's 2-cents worth. She's the one who "twisted and turned" my comment to Whit into a broad generalization and took it upon herself to redirect it towards herself. I can not be held responsible for what people to with my words once I write them down. I don't consider everything people say as a direct "attack" on myself, but when they make a point of directing a smart-ass comment to me then I will respond as I see fit.

Then perhaps you should re-examine the concept of a public message board. You post here, and you're open for public comment, disagreement, argument and perhaps even ridicule. If you're not able to hang with the big dogs, as the saying goes, perhaps you should stay on the porch. And as a point of reference, you will notice that I'm able to conduct myself without the use of profanity. (That's also a plus, it tends to not offend those caught in the crossfire)

If you can't handle the fact that someone may disagree with you, and have the 'nerve' to SAY so, then you should either keep your comments to yourself, take your conversations private, or find a forum where you CAN deal with it. (I hear AOL is still taking customers....)

Quote:

I don't know what your fucking problem is, but unless I'm talking to you or addressing the entire Cellar, BUTT THE FUCK OUT!!!

My problem. Well, it's simple. And believe it or not, it's NOT you. It's the way you handle yourself. I've seen you insult quite a few people around here. Some of which I've met personally, some of which I respect because they know a heck of a lot more about things than I do. And because I'd be willing to bet that a lot of them know a heck of a lot more about some things than YOU do. The way I look at it is this, you've come into the family's house, and taken the opportunity to defecate in our living room. And you know what? That's just unexcusable. (I use that reference, because if I remember correctly, you collect different specimens of animal droppings.)

Quote:

Every time I make a post there is some fuck head making some snide remark to me, which would be perfectly fine except that when I do the same exact thing I'm an asshole who doesn't know how to communicate, blah, blah, blah.

You may want to look back over the last few days, but I most definitely was NOT the person who said that you did not know how to communicate. I merely mentioned that it seemed that you were turning every person who may have had an opinion that differed in the slightest from you into a raving stupid lunatic. Well, I'm sorry, but most of us are not stupid, or lunatics, but we do have our moments when we rave. (But that's not the point here.)

Quote:

Jesus Christ, you're turning me into a fucking Quzah who doesn't give a fuck what it says or how it says it.

You can't be made to feel inferior without your permission. Elanor Roosevelt said that. (But she didn't check with someone more knowledgable first, so perhaps she doesn't know what SHE's talking about either). Your talent for turning anything into an attack is particularly troublesome. Those who lash out the most are generally those who are hurting the most. And I hope that at some point in time you are able to find the ability to see that a disagreement is NOT an attack.

Quote:

If that's how you like it than fuck you, that's how I'll do it. I've tried to put an end to this bullshit in a civilized manner, but apparently that doesn't work with you, DAGNEY.

I have not seen much evidence of putting things behind you in any sort of a civilized manner. You jump from thread to thread sniping folks who aren't involved in the conversation at hand, or making accusations of people who've not even participated in a conversation. (I was real impressed with your comment of people who didn't participate in your spaying/nutering thread....)

Quote:

Don't you have better things to do with your time here than to give me a blast of shit every time I make a post.

I've hardly commented or given you a blast of fecal residue every time you've made a post. If you're inviting me to....I'll be more than happy to start. And although I've got plenty of OTHER things to do with my time, I feel that THIS is necessary.

Quote:

Go find someone else to bitch to, I'm getting sick of your crap and I've reached well beyond the point of being "perturbed", I'm fucking pissed now.

Wah. Shall I say this again? WAH. Quit your crying, and get over yourself. I've not yet begun to snipe on YOU dear. Don't push buttons if you don't want to open the box. Okay?

Quote:

If I "perturb" you so much than don't waste your time making posts to me or about me, go on about your friendly, nice way bringing your joyful commentary to someone other than me.

What? And miss the fun of watching that vein in your forehead throb?


Now, if you'd like to know my personal opinion of you, you know where to find me.

(oh, and guess what, you HAVE made it all about you)

Dagney

But Sweetheart, when Whit goosed me, you jumped in and made it about you, when it really wasn't.
Then Dag made a post that, as I said before was IMO true and appropriate, you jumped all over her. In a very nasty and personal way too.
The best way not to catch 'em is not to bait 'em. Relax, pet the puppies, think about what you're going to get me for Christmas. :D

Brucey, if you reread those posts, you will realize that Whit was not only goosing you, but me too by subtly refering to a post I made in the lovely and pleasent new Pagen thread where I SARCASTICALLY stated that I wouldn't take your word on the meaning of "graven images" unless Els validated it:rolleyes: Come on people read, read thoroughly, then read again if you have to. So much of this bickering crap is due to people taking little bits and pieces out of posts and "twisting and turning" them into something their not. If your gonna bitch about something get your facts (and quotes) together before starting shit about um. So, as long as Whit was goosing me too I have every right to goose him back:p

As far as Dagney's last post, I had a real juicy reply going when I accidentally erased it, then I sat back and said why the fuck am I buying into all her crap for? So she hates me, big fucking deal, she ain't the first and won't be the last. So, in an effort to end this shit, I'm simply not going to reply. If she feels the need to continue I will oblige, but the proverbial ball is in her court now.

Kindly do not put words in my mouth.

If I hate you, I'll tell you. And seeing as though you've officially hit my "let's skip these posts, I don't need the aggravation" list, we've not got anything to worry about, now do we?

Dagney.

Nope, it appears we don't.

Hey, Bugz... I'm sensing that I might have offended you with what I said here. If that's true, I was just wondering what it was here that you took offense to?

I'm not attacking you, I'm just trying to understand why you think I'm attacking you.

Juju, this thread is so friggin' long, and my pooter is so slow, I tried to go back to your original post, but it was driving me nuts. Since you seem to know right where it is could you give me a date so I can find it more easily? From what I can recall I didn't take offense to your post though. In fact, somewhere I mentioned that I appreciated your attempts to keep the communication flowing in a positive direction around here. I don't think you are "attacking" me, but sometimes it seems like many people are bitching at me at once so I may have responded defensively to your comment, if so, I apologize.

My comment was actually in this thread on 9/5, and then you referred to it in this other thread, where you said:I guess you could have been referring to Dagney, but since I more directly referenced communication, I thought you meant me. Also, in this thread, you sort of refer to it again:

Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but you did mention it twice.

I see what your saying Juju, although I didn't take your "I find that people who are new to the internet often have problems interpreting moods and intent behind the written word. Lots of times, one sentence or phrase can be interpreted five or six different ways. It takes practice to work around this, but I'm sure you'll get it in time. But don't worry... we all went through this phase" comment offensive, nor did I consider it a direct "attack" on me, I guess the general "poor communication idea" that was swirling around at the time stuck in my head. Another thing I find going on is the "sarcasm" issue. I have many a time warned people of my propensity towards sarcasm and all is good as long as everyone involved is on the same page, but then someone comes in out of the blue and starts taking things out of context and turns sarcastic whips into nasty comments. Which I find interesting because most times they in turn use subtle sarcasm in their comments and when I call them on it or "return fire" they act like they don't know what the hell I'm talking about when it is soooo obvious to me that they do:confused:

Isn't it true that <i>no one</i> chewed you out in the Pagan thread?

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; One thing I'd like to make perfectly clear right here and right now. I never suggest someone not talk. While you're to new to remember this Bugz I even backed UT's decision to not kick Radar as many people wanted, and Radar and I really didn't get along well. I believe strongly in the idea of free speech. Which is why I've been such a smartass about what I'm allowed to say.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Having said that, I defend both my right to 'goose' Bruce about something you said and Dagney's right to respond to your response directly to me. Discussion boards like this one are free for all's, not private talks. On this play ground everybody gets to play.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; By the by, nobody here is interested in apologies. That's why apologizing doesn't seem to get you where you seem to think it should. We'd rather you not feel bad in the first place which is why you've gotten so many "How did I offend you?" replies. Lighten up, you'll be happier for it.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bruce, I just want you to know that this upset me so much that I cried like a little girl for over an hour.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dagney, having read your recent posts I think Brian is a lucky man. If he ever pisses you off then come on by, I've got a fair collection of Ayn Rand we could discuss.:p (Brian j/k about the "come by" thing, no need to kick my ass or anything)

Juju and Whit

As I was trying to figure out a way to cease the endless bullshit in some of the threads in here I thought to myself, well, if I just delete everything I ever wrote then there would be nothing left to piss people off anymore. So away I went, then on the third post I believe it was I got a message that it was too late to delete anymore. I didn't know you were keeping such close tabs on me. So, if either of you can tell me a way to retrieve deleted posts, I'll gladly repost them for your reading pleasure. No matter what I do in here it's wrong. I try being nice, I try being reasonable, I try saying what I am *really* thinking, I get pissed off, I try apologizing. Nothing seems to work. I don't know what you people want from me. I'm over here trying to have a civil conversation with Juju and he's over in Philosophy talking shit about me, which in turn gets Whit on the band wagon again. Whit, go ahead goose Bruce about something I said, but can you please explain why it is not OK for me to goose you back when I realize that your comment is indirectly goosing me too. Why is it that when I do the same thing I'm the asshole? Great, let Dagney get in on the action too, but why is it that she has free range on giving her opinion about me, but when I do the same I'm the biggest fucking bitch around?

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; What are you talking about? You didn't 'goose' me, you told me to stop talking about it. There was really no humor involved. For the record I did drop it at that point. As near as I can tell you have decided to try and paint me as a hypocrite, only I'm not one and no (accurate) quote you can come up with will show that I am. I never said it wasn't okay for you to say anything. I've even been nice while you made false accusations and deliberately misquoted me repeatedly. I have pointed out some of the misquotes and just about everyone on the board has told you that you're not being attacked, calm down.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now, to reiterate on the point of if you can 'goose' me. &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You've not been attacked, nobody hates you and I'm afraid you're just going to have to deal with it.

I haven't been following the thread, but it's getting ridiculously long. "This thread goes to eleven..." Something about a pig I am led to believe. -oink- I guess the one thing I've seen here is that the posts can seem pretty vitriloic sometimes, but there is a level of respect; there is a thread [pun] of constructive thought and humor. There are some fairly heavy and important things being discussed here, but I get the feeling that there is some kind of huge Monty Python sketch undercurrent to all this. Don't take most of this seriously, and more importantly, don't take yourself too seriously. I should point out by "you" I mean any of the earthlings on this board.

That being said, you are all the biggest bunch of freaks I've ever known, and I feel lucky for the chance to spew alphabet soup at you all once in a while. :D

For the last time, I AM NOT SAYING I'M BEING ATTACKED. You guys are the one making this comment. Where exactly in my above post did I say YOU'RE ATTACKING ME? My God, talk about making "false accusations" and "repeatedly misquoting deliberately". I just want to know why it is OK for everyone else to do the same thing I'm doing, but I'm the asshole????? Please answer this for me.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Haven't said you're being attacked? Let's backtrack through the last few posts shall we? You say "you're the asshole" calling people foul names is a form of attack, nobody called you that or really treated you like that. Hmm, you say Juju was talking shit about you, he rightly pointed out that you deleted posts, I'll get back to the problem with that. Ah, now you're saying you're the "biggest bitch around," see above. Hey, you never did say who "chewed you out" on the pagan thread, just noticed that and it would qualify as an attack. That brings us back to "it seems like many people are bitching at me at once..." Bitching at someone is generally considered a form of attack. That's just scanning down this page. Oh yeah, then there was when you accused me of not letting you have your own opinion on the 'Bridge' thread. You even suggested I would want kids with you opinion to die. That definitely qualifies as an 'attack' and it was definitely imagined by you. I was just giving my opinion while reading yours. We say attack, you say we've treated you like a bitch, an asshole, chewed you out, bitched you out, and taken away your right to an opinion. We've just used more polite words than you. I'd say that covers the attack issue.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Ooops, I forgot to mention earlier, we weren't keeping tabs on you per se, we had simply read the thread before and the deletions were pretty obvious.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Ah yes, I said I'd get back to that. Etiquette note, it's usually considered borderline deceptive to delete posts more than a few minutes after you post them. The reason is that it comes across as trying to deny you said what you said. That's the beauty of a board is that everyone can look back on what you said previously. I thought it was funny, thus made fun of it. Juju, on the other hand, is an old hand at this kind of thing and I suspect that he took it much more seriously. Like you were covering up what you had said rather than trying to get past it by doing better in the future.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; As far as Dagney goes, she gives reasons for what she says, or bases them in forum culture that Juju suggested in one thread that you simply weren't familiar with. She also does it with style.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Now, be specific, what is it that everyone is doing that you are not allowed to?

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Uryoces, dude, I only wish this melodrama was monty Python stuff. I've had a fair amount of laughs from it though. Just look around the board a bit. Parts of this fiasco are on a variety of forums.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Oh, and we prefer to be called "Terrans", which sounds much cooler than "earthling", which just comes off as condescending.

All right, I give up. Like I said no matter what I do it's wrong. Think what you want, say what you want, misquote, generalize, assume, attack, don't attack, comment, don't comment, do whatever you all want to do. I'm just going to try and stay out of your ways. I'll try to limit my posts to the few people in here who don't seem to have a problem me, my ignorance of forum etiquette, my communication skills, or lack thereof, and generally everything else that is so offensive to the rest of you.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Oh for christ's sake woman, can't you see we're not taking this time out to respond to you to be cruel, but actually to try to help you? Also, it's a freakin' discussion board, no matter where you post we will still read it.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Once more, and with real feeling, we, generally speaking, aren't offended. You just keep going off at bizarre moments and we're trying to figure out why.

OK Whit, thank you and all involved for trying to help me. I realize no matter where I post you'll still read it, but there are some people in here who actually tolerate me the way I am and I would like to continue conversing with them. I can only hope to move on from here and try not to piss off any of those who have offered such kind advice in the past. If I may make a suggestion, don't waste your time trying to figure me out, I think I'm an enigma, albeit a rather distasteful one at that.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Bugz, you aren't an enigma. I think I understand you pretty well. That's the only reason I've not, at any point, gotten pissed off at you myself. Would you please, possibly, maybe, consider actually listening to me on one point? I say me but actually you've been hearing this from all sides, including some of the people you say 'tolerate' you.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You see this? This clearly shows that you refuse to consider the outside chance that you've been the one that's gotten pissed first. Please reread some of the pre-problem posts as if we weren't talking to you. Maybe then you'll see we were talking to you like we would anyone else and it upset you. Even going back to your first big problem, Quazah, he posted a generaly pissy comment and you took it personal. Dozens of people on the board and you were the only one that was bothered by it.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I don't see any reason for you to have to curb your posting back to only a select few. Just friggin' relax, being that sensitive to what people say can't be good for your ego. Simply put, you are seeing anger, directed at you, where there is none. To fix the problem don't stop talking, recognize your tendancy to do that and double check yourself. Actively try to be more objective about what others say instead of jumping to the defense.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Best of luck.

There was no concern. I was illustrating a point using you as an example. It should have been quite clear. I was expalining that the comment could have been taken as an insult, and that it is quite possible to insult someone by misjudging them.

That was the entire point of the quote / message. It has nothing to do with how I actually took the message. I was pointing out that it could be taken a given way.

Quzah.

But you weren't trumpeting the values of the sterilization. You were saying that they would choose castration if you could explain it to them, and I was calling you on it. No male dog would opt for castration unless he knew he had testicular cancer. Period.

Quzah.

There you go. You've just contradicted yourself. You have obsoleted your argument.

You say: "Would my cat choose..." when you've already made the choice for them. You can say they'd want it, but that's just to make you feel better about yourself for having done it.

Second off, from the sound of it, your cat is housed. Meaning, it is kept indoors. Thus, you are not giving it the choice. You are again making it for them.

If you really believe that they would choose to be spayed with you, do this:

1) Get a new born kitten.
2) Install a cat door.
3) Do not sterilize your cat.
4) Be amazed when your cat comes and goes as it pleases, running around the neighborhood mating at every oportunity.

You see, you are flat out wrong. Your animal would not choose to be sterilized. Period. No animal would choose sterlization. Since LB is so big on biology, this should be crystal clear. Remember "hard wired"? Well no animal on earth would choose sterilization, especially since the sterilization done commonly would alter their normal behavior.

You can pretend all you want that they'd like it, but the fact is, you're wrong. No animal would opt for this. It goes against their "hard wiring".

No animal would choose to be spayed or nutering. Period. You're kidding yourself if you say you believe otherwise.

That being said, I have never said it was a bad thing to keep the "pet population" under control. I simply stated that no animal would choose the operation. It is asanine to believe so.

Quzah.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Welcome back Quzah. Have a nice weekend?

Yeah, not too bad. Went over to Seattle, visited my sister. Hung out for a bit, had a good time.

Quzah.

Onyx, I'm trying with all my might to only observe this conversation so as NOT to ensue another "bitchfest", but for edification purposes only, the word your looking for is anthropomorphism which in the context of this discussion means attributing human characteristics to animals:)

I believe the point was, if they could choose, hypothetically, would they? And the answer, of course, is no. :)

"Boy, you have a choice. You can have your nuts cut off, and live here with us in total comfort for the next fifteen years, with your every need attended to. You'll have a fortune in toys and loving attention, and absolutely the best medical care. Or, you can keep those nuts and take your chances with a week at the pound. You're kinda cute so maybe you have a 10% chance of being adopted before you get gassed. Of course your new owners might not be as nice as we are. We give you free will for a moment, what is your choice?"

Woof, face lick, face lick.:D

Ah, there you see, this would be considered "under duress", and as such, wouldn't hold up in a court of law. :cool:

Quzah.

I just saw on the news a woman adopted a Doberman from a rescue site 10 days ago. Tonight it mauled her to death. I wonder if she was offering that same choice?:(

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; So, UT, might I ask about your teenage years? I'm sure you stayed home happy and warm with all the comforts that entails. Certainly you never made any bad decisions like going out and chasing after any stray females, right?
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Of course you didn't. Otherwise you're assuming that animals are smarter than you.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Me? I figure the animals would make the same instictive decision most youths I knew did. "Screw the 'wise choice' lets go out fight, get laid and have a great night out." My particular group actually tried to avoid the first part and focused on the second two parts. Also, we knew what we were doing was stupid and involved enormous risks. But our instincs said "do it" and so we did.
[Edit] &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; My point is to suggest that animals might go the same route. I know I'd put money on it.

Hey, I bagged several eligible females during my breeding peak, and these were excellent decisions, as was the phenomenal decision never to bag one without birth controls.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; I've got two kids and in both cases we were using birth control. Birth control doesn't eliminate the risk, it just reduces it. Read the damn instructions, they even say so.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Regardless, you make my point. The animal, is you could explain the situation to it, would not choose to be spayed/neutered in most cases. I'm not saying it's not an excellent for us human to have our pets fixed. But the arguement was that the animal would choose it. Nope, don't buy it. And from what you say of you own history, neither do you.