No, I meant enforce, as in constrain or compel.

Hmmm...so, would you say that you are being held back by The Man?

Juju's claim that everything on the planet, including man and his machines, is natural is an irrefutable fact. It matters not whether the substance, shape, behavior, or chemical makeup have been altered by man or even aliens. If it came from here, it's from here, and therefore "of nature" or "natural. you cannot argue that point. it's an untrumpable truism. It's also juju's favorite argument to have. hijackey as it might be.

I think that we are on the same path, Shattered: mankind's presence and effect on the environment has changed so rapidly that there aren't many animals who have found a stable niche in the human world (like housecats, cows, barnacles, and probably pigeons have). Most of the animals that <b>have</b> found their way into the human sphere haven't been there long enough to have grown dependent upon us -- Holstein cows being the most notable exception.

I don't like the concept of humans not being animals and having an uncrossable chasm between our idea of 'human' and our idea of 'animal'. I regularly argue with religious folk about this (not so much to try to do anything, as because I think it's fun). However, I do believe that there should be a distinction between 'us' and 'everyone', and that that distinction is "we are humans, and none of the other species in our world are human."

The Romantics were the group of artists and authors etc. who revered transcendence and the supernatural, whom sought to return to nature and considered the cities to be worse than the pasture (in disagreement with most everyone else). Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thoreau, and others from that time period are considered Romantics.

Dang, and I had thrown in the towel. I want back in on this. Unfortunately, I'm on juju's side now, at least on the "everything is nature simply due to the fact that it exists" notion. It's simply true. HOWever. Now you're getting into philosophy, and treading dangerously close to religion.

If a horse dies in the forest, and no one is there to beat it, does it still make noise?

oo. a new sig. needs an edit though.

Not to pick nits, but I think the quote goes like this

If a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there to hear it..

Would juju still be an asshat?

Not only were there two, but the first "Romantics" was at one time called the Supremes, before Ruby hooked up with them. How's that for confusing? :rolleyes:

aside- who the hell are you calling fantastic?

You, you brilliant son of a bitch.

Pshaw, I'm a veritable cesspool of information. It's all shit and clear as mud but it covers the ground.:haha:

I don't have to, now. Found a book. The Brave Cowboy by Edward Abbey. He uses a whole book to explain it. Tons and tons of great stuff. Invaluable.


The Brave Cowboy

^^^^^^^^^
That's what I was talking about.

Do you realize that when you say that man's existence is tampering with what is "natural", you are implying that man's exitence is somehow inferior to the "natural way" of things? An ocean creates errosion. It houses fish and aquatic plants and such. If the ocean had such an inferiority complex, it would spend just as much time arguing with the other oceans about how all they do is destroy land and house a bunch of icky fish and how things would be more "natural" had they not been around in the first place.

It is "natural" for a man to build, destroy, kill mosquitos, or whatever it is that a man does because it is inside of him. Just like the instinct to kill bunnies is inside a fox and little beavers who cut down trees and destroy forrests (those little destructive un natural beings!!!).

Whatever is happening, no matter how much plastic is involved, or other man-made elements, is the most natural thing that can be happening in that moment.

If you're the religious type, then I think it said in the bible that God created Man in his own image, which I translate to mean that man can create other things from the earth, if he wishes, even if it isn't biodegradable like diapers.

I think juju was only saying that the word "nautral" is possibly more of a multidemensional word, and when analyzing its true meaning, it's kind of neat that even surrounded by "unnaturally occuring" elements, we are still surrounded by nature, becuase we are surrounded by the human nature that created those unnatural things.

I don't think his comments have anything to do with being in college or living in Arkansas, though it is an interesting side note that Arkansas is called "the natural state".

To hijack this thread back:

My family. Church. Making music. Going on bike rides.


On the hijacked topic:

I don't hunt now, because I don't have the time or the place. But it gave me the same sort of feeling as when I was riding my bike to and from work. On the bike, it was nice to know that I could get where I needed to go under my own power and didn't have to depend on a car to get me there. When I was hunting, it was nice to know that I could get my own food.

love.

what kind of love?