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-   -   Why would one choose to be a soldier? (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=7975)

Undertoad 03-24-2005 10:16 AM

What evidence do you have of this strange new hard-to-describe semi-metaphysical construction? It's not hard to imagine creativity involving different states of mind, different cranial connections happening when one is eating or relaxed or what have you.

mrnoodle 03-24-2005 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catwoman
I would suggest there is a 'network' not unlike the one we are accessing right now that is available to anyone who chooses to login. Just that not many people know it is there and some people are still resisting it (just like the internet!) This network is the common thought process of mankind, hence change or innovation does not originate in one persons brain but as a result of picking up on a collective consciousness which you cannot access through will but through receptivity.

This collective consciousness thing has always stuck in my craw. Is there no original thought, then? Or is it a repository of original thought from which we can receive information? If a guy in Tanzania thinks of a new way to pick his nose with a twig, has he just put something into the c.c. bank for the rest of us to draw from? Or did his idea come from the c.c. bank, and is it therefore unoriginal? Whose idea was it originally? Mine, since I just came up with it? Or did I steal it from him?

For that matter, what is the origin of the collective consciousness? We can't collectively decide to patch holes in the road at a city council meeting -- are you suggesting that somehow this fizzle of brain activity connects with like fizzles and creates a functional network?

Have you ever derided my belief in Christ? I don't remember. But if you have, I'm calling Maximum Bullshit (tm). I gotta make more tinfoil hats :gray:

Beestie 03-24-2005 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catwoman
The point is you do not have to be actively or consciously seeking progress for it to occur as a thought pattern. Where do ideas come from?

Ideas come from unmet needs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catwoman
I would suggest there is a 'network' not unlike the one we are accessing right now that is available to anyone who chooses to login.

You have indicated earlier that the reason you do not believe in God is because a) there is no specific evidence of his existence that is acceptable to you and b) because there is a less esoteric/more rational explanation for anything one might attribute to him. Given that, and given that all humans have essentially the same basic need set, isn't it more rational to believe that communality and co-incidence in human behavior and the history of ideas is a function of the similarity of humans and the needs which drive the ideas rather than an utterly unprovable hypothesis of a collective consciousness?

If you want to take an intellectually skeptical position on the existence of God (which is fine - I'm not criticizing it), then take a similarly skeptical position of your collective unconcious/"network of minds" idea. Seems to me that you have fallen in love with the idea and exempted it from rigorous critque and you are frustrated that your Cellar mates aren't as willing to do likewise.

The wheel was invented in several different parts of the world at about the same time not because all the knuckledragging cave men were tapped into a neural network but because they all needed a fucking wheel so they all went out and made one.

In cases where a simple theory derived from tangible evidence is as explanatory of a phenomenon as an unprovable complex theory, go with the simple one.

lookout123 03-24-2005 10:17 AM

you know this just feels like hokey hippy BS to me. one too many tokes and lets all just hug. we're all one big community man...

mrnoodle 03-24-2005 10:20 AM

although me, beestie and lookout were simultaneously thinking the same thing, just from different angles......:tinfoil: :tinfoil: :tinfoil:

Beestie 03-24-2005 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123
you know this just feels like hokey hippy BS to me. one too many tokes and lets all just hug. we're all one big community man...

Hey! I was going to say that. My mind needs a firewall. :)

lookout123 03-24-2005 10:21 AM

let's hug man... it seems that we've been visiting the same cache in the collective consciousness.

Happy Monkey 03-24-2005 10:27 AM

I gotta say, there ain't many times I'll add a "me too" to lookout and mrnoodle, but this is one of those times.

It's certainly common for someone to have an epiphany when they've stopped consciously working on the problem (ie the phrase "sleep on it"), but I'm not going to make the leap of attributing it to telepathy.

Beestie 03-24-2005 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey
I gotta say, there ain't many times I'll add a "me too" to lookout and mrnoodle, but this is one of those times.

Given this unprecedented meeting of the minds (oops, no pun intended) and given Cat's affection for metaphors, I propose a metaphor for Cat's idea:

http://www.salvationarmy.org.au/burn...ages/toast.jpg

:)

Catwoman 03-24-2005 10:43 AM

*doesn't need to say anything because you already know what I'm thinking*

Catwoman 03-24-2005 10:45 AM

Ok ok, I agree all of this sounds hippy/bullshit and is completely unprovable. So for most of you, stop reading now.

For those with slightly more lateral minds, let's remove the hippy associations attached to the words and try and advance....

Look I'm not asking you to believe me, just be open to the idea and watch life around you, and see if it's true. You can see all the same things I can. Do you really think you create? I argue that we only modify what already exists. What have we actually, tangibly created? Nothing. So it must have come from somewhere else. I don't know about the words 'god' or even 'collective consciousness' (although this is slightly more precise), they're probably just confusing the issue.

It is not a tangible 'network' as such, just what is there. God I realise this is sounding shite but I'm sorry I don't have the words to express it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle
Is there no original thought, then?

Yes, but to assume it comes from 'you' or 'me' is the slip-up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie
isn't it more rational to believe that communality and co-incidence in human behavior and the history of ideas is a function of the similarity of humans and the needs which drive the ideas rather than an utterly unprovable hypothesis of a collective consciousness?

same thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beestie
Seems to me that you have fallen in love with the idea and exempted it from rigorous critque and you are frustrated that your Cellar mates aren't as willing to do likewise.

Hmm, possibly. I don't mean to come across as closed. It's just this is such a difficult thing to explain (for me anyway) that trying to 'argue' it in the usual way doesn't always work. I have no proof or back-up; I'm on my own! And the hippies don't count, they just say these things to feel better about mis-spent lives. Well I can assure you it certainly doesn't make me feel better when I try to communicate and it's met by resistance from everyone! No, not a call for pity, I don't want to be agreed with, just someone to go 'ah right now I get it'.

lookout123 03-24-2005 10:52 AM

but back to the original idea of this thread - why would one choose to be a soldier?

i ponder this one every day, but have been focusing on it even more the past couple of months. i've got 8 months before yet another enlistment is over for me. contrary to what many think, we don't just blindly reenlist because there are no other options.

my situation is causing me considerable heartburn right now. i've got 13 years in, and i love it. i love what we do, i love what we stand for, i love the common ground that we share in the unit. i love that in the military you can cement incredibly strong bonds with other people in a very short amount of time - it only makes sense when there is the ever present knowledge that one way, or another you probably will be around this person for 2 years. when the buildup to the war in Iraq was going on it was suggested that we shouldn't wear our uniforms off base as a way of avoiding possible conflict and attention. most of us said BS and wore them anyway. we are who we are, whether anyone likes it or not, we are needed. to sum it up, i am very proud of my involvement with the US military.

the flip side of that is that i've lost clients in my civilian practice because A) they are anti-military (only 1 family) B) because they are afraid of me getting called up and they want someone else to handle their money.
I miss a lot of time with my wife and son due to my military obligations. they live with the thought always at the back of their minds that i may get called up for 2 weeks or 2 years. my wife doesn't say much, but i know that it worries her.

financially? i lose $400-500 every day i spend with my unit instead of in civilian practice. when i get activated for 2-3 weeks it can erase as much as 2 months worth of productivity because of my business cycle. if i get activated for 3 months (which is sure to happen in the next year or two) or longer i will lose @1/3 of my clientele permanently, not to mention that my military pay is only about 15% of my civilian expectations. so obviously we don't do it for the current pay. maybe it is the retirement? probably not - you can't collect a check until you are 60, even if you retire at 45, many don't live to collect their first check as small as it is.(about enough for a car payment)

so considering all of this, why do I still do it? it is hard to put into words. to paraphrase Lt Gen Hal Moore (ret): it isn't for my country, a flag, mom and dad, and apple pie. we stay and sacrifice for each other.

i'm concerned that so many of my generation think that the military and use of force is only for the storied past. it concerns me to think that many see what is happening today and don't believe that there were opponents, dissidents, and hardships surrounding every single combat operation the US military has been involved in. it concerns me that too many of my generation aren't willing to stand up for anything, because of a misconception that pretty words and diplospeak can solve anything and everything without a shot ever being fired.

that is all on my mind, but more pressing is the fact that if i don't reenlist this time around, due to transfers and promotions, there is no one trained and able to run my shop should i leave. they would make do, find someone, or train someone and in the long run, be just fine - but the thought of leaving these people that i haved worked for and with in the lurch so that i'm not inconvenienced by another deployment... it just grates on my very being. i'm not sure if i can walk away with my head held high if i do it that way.

so if you were at all interested in why someone would choose to be a soldier... that is a little glimpse into the reality of what at least one person thinks.

edit: the paragraph talking about "my generation" is not meant to disparage anyone who hasn't or won't serve. not everyone is cut out for the military and that is why i have and will always oppose mandatory service.

mrnoodle 03-24-2005 10:55 AM

I always get it. I just like to argy. At least you haven't (yet) said that our collective consciousness is a remnant of our time on Venus, or that the power source is a giant extraterrestrial crystal buried under the seabed in Atlantis.

Speaking of that, is it any wonder that the greys put us back after they capture us? Why would they keep us?

"Hey Ooolap, check out the brain scan on this one."
"Damn, how do they tie their shoes?"
"I dunno. Hey, do you have the chip that makes em think they have collective consciousness? I'm out."
"Nope. Here's one that makes them vote Democrat, though."
"You sick fuck. Put that away."

:D

lookout123 03-24-2005 10:56 AM

Quote:

Look I'm not asking you to believe me, just be open to the idea and watch life around you, and see if it's true.
Cat are you even aware that this is the same thought that you would deride a Christian for?

mrnoodle 03-24-2005 10:59 AM

lookout put the soldiering thing best. i've never served, but i've worked in jobs where i had contact with the military for years, and almost all of them have the same mindset as that. i'm jealous of their focus and sense of community.


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