Radar you are an idiot.

*now where is that ignore button*

" he wasnt asking for proof about bills charitable giving. he was asking for proof regarding all the other bullshit youve<a href="http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/21b7c626/bc/spew.wav?bchDi89AOk7ysQVg"> spewed</a> since arriving here. "

:)

dammit slang. now i have to go find a copy of that movie. :)

~james

Guys, please let me know when my rants get that stupid... Dude fantasizes about being the first LP President when even LPers find him completely offensive.

They signed a contact with Javsasoft (the division of Sun in control of Java) to be permitted to include Java tech in Windows and to be the developers of the reference JVM implementation for Windows. Sun gave them total access to source code, and developers all over the planet did many man-years of development work relying on MSFTs promise that a compliant JVM would ship with every copy of Windows.

When MSFT realized--years down the road--that Java was actually beginning to deliver on its promises of platform portability, they decided the contract wasn't such a good deal for them after all and began to put code into their JVM to break compatibility: there would be one way to code some things for Windows and another way everywhere else. This was explicitly forbidden by the licence agreement.

Sun began beating on them to comply with what they'd promised to do in the licence agreement, and MSFT refused saying what they were doing "worked better".

When Java released Remote Method Invocation (a technology underlying J2EE and EJB), a means of calling code in another JVM or in another machine across a network, Microsoft saw a looming threat to the future dominance of their own DCOM technology (a .NET predecessor), because RMI works across *all* platforms, not just Windows. They flat out refused to implement it in their Java support as they had comitted to doing many years before--their contract called for them to imlement new revs of the Java API within a specified time limit after the Java platform was revved by Sun, and thier imlementations were required to pass compatibility test suites written by Sun...the same tests required of all other Java implementors. .

I think requiring MSFT to ship Sun's Java implementation with Windows is a suitable remedy for the damages calculatedly and deliberately caused by MSFT's bad-faith breach of the contracts they freely entered into.

By the way, Radar? I was working in computing before you were born..so your "17 years, you've been schooled" riff impresses me not at all. So you can sit down too, "little boy."

In my opinion, it's the delivery that makes a post offensive.

If something is wonderfull to you, it's probably NOT to many others. Please explain in detail why you like it without making me sound like a dumbass for NOT liking it.

Opinion is great but supprting opinion or supporting facts are better. When someone presents opinion as fact, it's annoying, not interesting.

I really dont care what your opinion is, just dont bullshit me and yourself by posting it as divine wisdom.

It's also helpful not to become<a href="http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/21b7c626/bc/numnuts.wav?bcihr89A.8vGZK5i"> confrontational</a> when attempting to make you point.

So , I hope Radar and Cairo will continue contributing, I just wish they would improve the delivery so I can agree with them without looking like an ass.

Don't bother. It was a rhetorical statement because there isn't one. Instead of using any of the other numerous existing email authorization schemes, they decided to use their own, and not publish the specs.

So any open-source program that wants to authenticate against MSN or anything else that uses NTLM must reverse engineer the protocol.

Yeah, Radar at first seemed like he'd be an interesting addition around here, but now he just sounds like a dick. I still don't know whether he actually believes his "Win2k never crashes" statement, but I don't really care.

Win2k is the most secure OS on earth? That statement alone deomnstrates your insipid and arrogant stupidity.

i'm not going to waste any more time on you.

Tob: The MSN api is availaible from msft.
Doesn't mean your point is incorrect, just thought i'd point that out.

Which MSN API are you referring to? I'm talking about their NTLM email authentication protocol. You won't find a specification anywhere. Ditto for their proprietary SMB extensions.

No sorry, i meant the general chat one.

Hermit22,
Your comprehension black outs seem intentional, since you are the only one "playing dumb" when it's convenient, then understanding fully when you wish to rebut! So when you "play dumb" I will reply "How convenient!"

1. How convenient! Charter 6 violations are suggestions by the UN to keep peace...Charter 7 violations are backed up with the use of force by UN members and they required unanamous votes...
Israel has never violated Charter 7 resolutions, Iraq has!
The UN is irrelevant and a joke, History has proven this. But I'm not going to let you get away with giving Saddam excuses and comfort he doesn't deserve, especially when it's idiots like you who demand that we jump through these irrlevant hoops in the first place!!!!
I didn't call anyone vermin, my husband did...
How convenient!
2. "Colorblind" when it comes to the truth? Hell YES! Colorful truths are lawyer-speak for defense lies!
3. Kashmir, Columbia, Israel, and America are all in the "During War" phase...if their enemy has not been defeated and still wants to defeat them, what do you call it?
No, sometimes the State is under the impression that the enemy has surrendered, when in fact, he was buying time to get his ass out of the sling!
4. Hey little boy, I already am an active member of society, and have been since 1981...when your contributions amounted to about 7 diapers a day, right? How many employees do you have? How much in taxes do you contribute per year? How many houses, property, cars, stocks,and insurance policies have you paid for and OWNED?....None yet? THAT'S what I thought, little boy!
Oh, my mind is open...just not to Socialism! Your mind(thanks to liberal indoctrination) is so open, your brains FELL OUT! That's not a good thing! Pour that in and swirl it around awhile!
Yes, my husband used to think and act exactly like you. So much so, that he was about to join the French Foreign Legion and before that, held such little regard for human life, he carried a bullet for the purpose of suicide! Then we had children, and he says, the Lord found him and awakened his purpose. Now he spends everyday righting his past wrongs. You seem to be at your Anti-America stage of your life, my husband was there too...with age comes wisdom.
5. Wrong! The Parliment Lenin was going to install never came to be because he was shot in the neck!
6. How convenient! America would be a better place to live if some people had a sense of shame or guilt! A healthy fear of ostracism leads to individual accountability!
7. How convenient! They couldn't find a single trace of some 9/11 victims either, do we assume that they too are indeed alive as well?
You don't understand what a bunker buster does to surrounding oxygen, do you?
WOW! Stop the presses! I dare to disagree with our Government!...So sue me!
8. The Bush Administration has always claimed that Saddam has proven ties with terrorists, in fact, he IS A TERRORIST! Many other Countries say the same!
The Bush Administration has also said from the beginning that some Countries will help US in secret for their own safety, the Czech Republic is one such Country, and President Bush will not, nor should he, betray their trust! When the Czech Republic says we can make the satellite tapes public, we will, otherwise the proof is a need to know basis...Countries who have come on board with US after being against, have seen the proof. Our own Congress, made an about face after perusing the proof! I'll side with the inner-circle who has all the intel available to them since I don't.
9. If you consider lawyer-speak, deception, and smooth talking like a cheating boyfriend trying to get you back is a "better speaker" then Bill"it depends on what the meaning of is, IS" Clinton is your guy! And Algore is such an IDIOT! In 1998 he said that regime change in Iraq was the only solution for Saddam...what's changed since '98,
Al? IDIOT! Algore is a perfect example of our F-ed up "higher education"! And you are another for considering lying under oath in a court of law, and getting others to perjure in order to obstruct justice is "relatively trivial"! Breaking the law is only "relatively trivial" to CRIMINALS!
10. Excuse me Stalin, BUT Self-defense is not terrorism! "propaganda by deed" Indeed! Tell it to the Japanese Shinto's...Bin Laden's and Saddam's terrorist network weren't the first quasi-religious fanatics to challenge US with homicide bombers, hell they weren't even the first to slam planes into US! We defeated the Shinto fanatics without destroying the Religion itself...and we will defeat these Islamic fanatics without destroying Islam itself. Japan polices itself, now fist-fights break out in the Japanese Parliment anytime the idea of deploying troops beyond their shores is brought up!

It's amazing the attitude adjustment that a stout ass-kicking will produce!

Earth by birth
American by the grace of God!

Radar,
A court order is still required to judge the Constitutional Rights of the American citizen.
The Patriot Act gives our Government the tools it needs to take terrorists who want to kill US off our streets and stop them from killing US. So, if the Patriot Act stops one terrorist from killing you, me, the rest of New York...it has effectively upheld our Right to Life, Liberty, and the Persuit of Happiness. See?

All your other posts are excellent reads, I agree!!!!
LOL...These wankers actually think they are Libertarian, all the while, they spout Socialist mantra....what a hoot!

Hermit22,
You say,"I think Healthcare is far too important to leave to the free market."
You do comprehend that the free market, as well as Bill Gates, are We the People of these United States, right?
Just like the DemocRATS stating that We the People are too stupid to handle 2% of our own Social Security, and that overcharging We the People doesn't merit a refund or "change back" because that money belongs to the Socialist Government now!!!! Hermit22 declares that We the People are not capable of taking care of ourselves without the proverbial Government rectal exam!

Sycamore,
The Bible is a Historical journey of events that happened from Third Century B.C.E. thru 68 C.E.
Sounds like History to me...unless you haven't the faith that it happened. The Bible is also a book of instructions by God.

http://cweb.loc.gov/exhibits/scrolls/toc.html

No, 6 months ago some councilman here petitioned the court to revise the History of the Alamo to omit parts of the last stand because some Hispanics might be ancestors and be offended at the slaughter, or some such B.S....He lost and the courts upheld the true History!
How does a perspective born out of lies enhance ones knowledge? I contend it "dumbs-down" our children because the truth is erased.

As for Jefferson...there ya go propagating the truth again! Seems the revisionist fabrication into History fooled even you!
The link clearly states that Eaton Hemings has the same Y-chromosome as 25 different Jefferson males in that area at that time, who ranged in age from 16-68 years old, Thomas Jefferson being the oldest at 68 years when this boy was conceived! 68 years old back then, is equivalent to 88 years by todays standard of life, and there was NO VIAGRA back then, Dumbazz!

I believe I was asked Why do "you think" or How do "you know" binLaden is dead...ask for my opinion, and you get it! That's what this forum is for, 'nes pas?
Debating the issue is NOT crying about it, crying about it is what you do when I check your sorry socialist rear! Typical!

The bottom line is...
If Bill Gates DBA Microsoft has broken the law, prove it in court and he/they will be punished! If not, you're just jealous and envious like the Devil that you failed to be as successful as you perceive him to be!

Healthcare...you should be angry at lawyers and patients who commit fraud! Lawsuits are what causes costs to rise through the roof. A lot of Americans are realizing that the choice to not carry insurance is less expense in the long run. Example: If I pay $340.00 per month for 80% full coverage, and I see the doctor 2 times that month, it costs me $368.00. If I don't have insurance, and I see a doctor 2 times in a month, it costs me $156.00.
Maternity...with insurance, your 20% cost is $1,500.00 plus you have paid $4,080.00 for that year of insurance. No insurance, save up $2,500.00 and your baby is paid for! We are getting smart,
just realize that the insurance industry is like the retail industry in that those who don't shop at Macy's cause Macy's to have sales to pull them in, those who do shop at Macy's and steal from them cause Macy's to mark up prices, and those who are honest buyers pay that price!
This analogy may be too intellectually advanced for some here to comprehend, so don't even try!

So all older men need viagra. Hmmm, seems a little unrealistic to me, sounds like Bob Dole has gotten into your head.

The bible is not a record of facts. It's a record of faith. Big difference. When you start to confuse the two your spitting in the face of God given intelligence.

Yep that flew right over my head.

So your mind is closed?

Apparently they redefined that last word there.

Sure, there are lots of cases where it's not cost efficient to have insurance. I'm pretty healthy and I haven't been to the doctor in a few years now. I've still been paying for insurance, and by your reasoning, I'm getting totally ripped off. Fortunately it's called "insurance", and I pay for it so that I am assured coverage in the case of an accident.

Here's an example for you: seven years ago, I was shot in the face by an irresponsible neighbor. I spent a week in the hospital and had probably thirty doctor appointments over the next eight months. At that point, I was an add-on to my father's insurance, and I was probably costing $50 a month. Now, let's assume $20,000 for the helicopter, hospital stay and surgery (which is on the low end, but I don't recall the exact numbers). And we'll go ahead and add $78 per appointment thereafter, totalling $2,340. So our grand total for that fiasco comes out to about $22,340. If we divide that by the amount my father paid each month to have me on his insurance, we come out to 446.8 months (I'll round down, so that the numbers are more favorable to you). 446 months is 37 years and 2 months, meaning that if that one incident was the only reason I ever visited a doctor in my entire life, my dad would break even after 37 years of paying for my insurance.

Now, suppose you're paying $340 each month for 80% coverage (that's from your example). They're only covering $17,872 from that $22,340 medical bill, which leaves you with $4,468 in up-front costs. Plus, you're paying $340 each month. Divide that into your $17,872 of coverage for that particular incident and you'd have to pay for 52 months (4 years, 4 months) to cover it. That's assuming you have no other medical visits whatsoever over that period of time. Plus, you got stuck with a shitty $4,468 bill.

Insurance exists because the world doesn't necessarily work the way we'd like it to. I'm not happy that I got shot, but I'm thankful that hospital bills didn't bankrupt my father.

Whether or not you like it, there's a place in this world for insurance. And whether or not you'd like to admit it, it's smart to have it. Because you can never <b>know</b> whether or not you'll need it.

By the way, the quote in your signature is wrong. I'd appreciate it if you'd fix it. The actual words are "The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

Cam,
The fact that you want so badly to demonize a Founding Father of this Country on speculation and probability that flies against the odds, is unrealistic at best, to me! The odds against TJ being the father are 96% not. Common sense tells us that Sally fell in love with one of the 20+ year old Jeffersons and got pregnant...she was no stranger to sex, this was her 2nd child!

So you base your faith on...what? Truth? And truth is found through....FACTS!!!!
As children we believe in the tooth fairy, based on what our parents tell us to be truths. When we get older and find, in fact, our parents are the tooth fairy, we no longer believe...or are you saying you do?
I said, a Historical journey of events...it's up to each reader to decide the truth or facts of the Bible's record for themselves.

Over your head?...Doesn't surprise me. LOL...
I have closed my mind to Socialism because I've read and researched what it does to a Country of the People, for the People. And it ain't pretty!

I was just pointing out the fact that your argument above was pretty much worthless. Do I think there is a 100% probability he is the father, no. The media overplayed the DNA test. It’s been too long for the test to be a fool proof method of Jefferson being the father. But to discount it because Viagra wasn’t available….

Faith is faith, if you start basing your faith on facts your going to find yourself believing in science as the true answer. Once you do that your life is going to be pretty meaningless.

I was being slightly sarcastic, as your use of grammar was about the skill level of a 4th grader. I doubt anyone understood that sentence.

dave,
Of course I agree with you that having the choice is always best, because some need insurance and some do not. My beef is with the affordability of choosing to have it. I don't think you are getting "ripped off" because you have coverage, I think you are getting ripped off because your cost is hardly affordable due to insurance fraud perpetrated by lawyers.(As the mark up of clothing is due to shoplifters)

Those who choose to not carry insurance are not poor or unable, they are taking a stand, and saying to the lawyers to stop the lawsuit frauds that drive up doctor/hospital insurance so our coverage can again be affordable. I also have to add that in an emergency(such as yours, and I'm very sorry you had to go through such a horrific experience, I'm glad you are O.K..) people with no insurance can make monthly payments of as much as you can afford...be it $10.00 or $100.00, they have to accept it. That's why I stated "in the long run."
because most of the time we are healthy without incident as you are now.
Thanks for the reply, and spelling out the importance of having the choice.

As for my sig....not bad recall from only hearing it once, eh? The meaning is the same, and I'm not sure how to get back in to fix it, can you tell me how? Thanks.

See now if you would have said that the first time I wouldn't have had to say anything. That anyone with a brain can understand. I understood your previous analogy but I had to read it 4 times to figure out what you were saying.

My impression of Cam's "adult" reply....

"Whaaaaaa, I can't justify how a 68 year old man is as studly as 24 younger, more able bodies...Whaaaaa, I still believe in the tooth fairy....Whaaaaa, so I'll call you a fourth grader, and Whaaaaaa, claim IGNORANCE.....whaaaa haaaa ha."

WHO'S worthless???? Piss off!

I never claimed to be an adult, I'm just a 20 year old college student trying to survive another semester. And yes I do claim ignorance. I know very little of the world. But then again I know enough that I take the time to see both sides of an argument and listen to reason. I also know enough to see that my finals are more important then listening to you. Time to say goodbye to cairo for the next two weeks.

Cam,
I did say that in the first place, almost word for word...who else besides a shoplifter "steals from Macy's"???
Here's another puzzle that boggles the anti-corporate mind...If you don't want We the People to run and privately control business, and you don't want Government to run and control business, and a mix of the two causes bankruptcy and power struggle for one to dominate.....who's left? What's the solution? Just something to ponder.

Those lawyers don't give a rat's ass whether you carry insurance or not. How is refusing insurance taking a stand against them?

Cam,
I understand, good luck on your finals!
C-ya later.

Tobiasly,
Refusing to carry insurance causes the insurance company to "have a sale" to pull you in, like Foley's department stores are notorious for their Red Apple Sale, which brings in people who never set foot in Foley's otherwise. But insurance can not do this until lawyers are reigned in from their free for all fraud...torte reform. They do give a rat's ass about torte reform!

Well golly gee, do we have ourselves a Holy Roller here?

That is your interpretation. There are at least 2 interpretations with which I am familiar (and there may be even more): The first is literal interpretation, which is used by more conservative Protestants. They tend to take the Bible word-for-word, and as a history book (i.e. The Earth was created in 6 days, everything that Revelation describes is indeed going to happen). The second is contextual interpretation, which is used by Catholics and more liberal Protestants. They tend to believe that the Bible is a book of faith, not a history book, and that many parts of the Bible are more symbolic than anything.

Which one is right? No one really knows...it all depends in how you look at it.

Your link is not working now, and was not earlier as well.

Where is here?

I'd certainly be curious to learn more about this. Do you have any links or references?

It depends on if it is actually "lies" or not. You haven't provided any real detail on the situation yet, other than some of your cute color commentary...

Given your penchant for slant, I'd love to see some sources for this.


Then you threw this out...

Call me crazy, but...

Male descendant--a male-line descendant of Eston Hemings
Jefferson males--the "s" at the end of "males" means "more than one." I am well-aware that there were many.

So, where is the revision in my above quote? Go ahead, try and find it.

Viagra was not necessarily needed. Men can father children well into their later years, as opposed to women. (e.g. Tony Randall)

I merely provided the statement from the Monticello folks for further information. Again, I think it's worthy of talk in the annuls of history.

I did not ask for your opinion.

As I mentioned previously, this is considered by most folks to be a statement of fact. I merely asked you to back up this "fact" you were claiming. Sources...you know...BBC, Fox News, MSNBC, The Washington Times, etc.

Then you come back with...

And you added to this what appears to be your opinions on why bin Laden is dead. No sources, nothing. Just a bunch of shit I could hear on any cable news channel.

Checking me? Please! I don't get checked too much on shit like this b/c it's unwarranted. When I come to the table, I tend to either qualify myself (by using "I think," "I believe," etc.) or back it up with sources. (Go ahead, look through my 2900 posts.) Therefore, there is little need to check me. And when I do stumble, I admit my fault and roll on.

In the end, you're just a sad oxygen-stealing puke who was fortunate enough to get an internet connection so that you can spew your shit online. You could stand to take a cue from others in the community in the areas of diplomacy and responsibility of your posts. You apparently have no diplomacy, and that's why I have no desire to try and converse with you in an overly diplomatic and respectful manner.

So, why don't you wrap yourself up in that big blanket of ignorance for now, get your shit together, and come back when you're ready to play some real ball, mmmkay? Until then, I can no longer spend time dealing with your insanity.

Most of your post is pretty garbled and worthless, and I don't feel like fellating your ego anymore by giving you a real response. So I'll respond to your vague insults and little else.



Most of these countries are in war in the same way that the whole world is constantly in conflict. I would get philopsophical on you, but it's not really worth it. Look up some Clausewitz if you're really interested. What I was referring to was the higher level; not the low level state. I'll go into further discussion of this if you figure out how to ask me nicely.

So you've proved that your argument is based on insults. How humourous. About as funny as you not mentioning how much you contribute.
And yes, I have had and currently do have many of those things.

I'm about as far from being anti-American as it gets. I'm training to spend my life directly serving my country. So go blow your smoke up some other chimney.
And it sounds like your husband was a pretty close minded liberal - maybe he did fit into the far left/communist group. My version, and the one that I suspect most progressives believe in, respects humanity above all else.

No, actually, you're wrong. His Testament was a series of letters suggesting what he thought should be done, and nowhere in there did he suggest a brand new, full Parliament. The official story is that he died of a stroke - which is completely plausible considering the number that he had been having in the years before his death.

I think we all saw the footage of that on tv.

So you don't trust them when they say bin Laden isn't dead, but you do when they say Saddam's a terrorist (and then later drop the line)?
Hmm. A Second Intifada, a few major terrorist attacks, increased hostilities in the region coupled with increased information access (ie. al-Jazeera, Internet)...nope, nothing new.
Look at Eisenhower, or Johnson, or Reagan's aides, who all lied to the public or had their aides perjure themselves. History is full of leaders whose lies sent people to their death. So why is a blowjob so important?

btw, I have no patience for anti-educationalism. I think that's a pretty good indication of intelligence level. Anti-establishmentism, however, is completely different, and is often practiced by those in higher education - sometimes to extremes. You seem to not be able to figure out your own opinion on these things. For example -- do you want your children to go to college?

I believe that was Stalin's tactic, yes.

And please tell me of the other examples of people "slam[ming] planes into US!"

Quit making yourself look like an idiot. Even the best people, or the best countries, have a soiled history. It's foolish to think otherwise, and close your mind off to anything but yourself and your beliefs.

The scrolls that were later compiled and translated (twice - once from ancient Aramaic to Greek, and then from Greek to old English) for the King James Version of the bible were written 400 - 500 years after the supposed death of Jesus of Nazareth. During those hundreds of years, the stories were told from father to son for generations upon generations. I've read the bible several times among other religious texts. I prefer the NIV version for accuracy because it was translated directly from Aramaic to English and the King James for it's poetry.

I don't know if any of you remember the telephone game children play, but it goes something like this. You line up 10 or so children and the first one whispers something in the ear of the child next to them and they pass it on until it gets to the end. By the time it gets to the end it's completely different than the original message. This is undoubtedly the case with the bible stories. They've surely been embellished and changed to the point where they're hardly recognizable from anything that may or may not have happened in reality.

I don't recognize the bible as "divine" or as "factual". I don't recognize it as a moral authority or as an accurate historical record. I see it as one of many religious texts out there with some well known stories and parables intended to teach a set of values. The same is true with Zen Buddhism, Islam, and every other religion. They all have similar stories.

I personally believe that if you boil all religions down to their essence they teach the same thing. Once you remove ignorant things like restrictions on diet, wardrobe, grooming, etc. you find that they all have the same universal message. Whether you call that message the golden rule, karma, or something else the message is far older than any organized religion. Far older than Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, or any other religion that has ever existed. The 10 commandments are based on this rule. Thou shalt not steal. Why? Because you wouldn't want other people to steal from you. Thou shalt not commit adultery? Why? Because you wouldn't want your spouse to do it and you wouldn't want someone else to do it with your spouse. Thou shalt not kill? Why? Because you don't want to be killed and you don't want your friends or family killed. It goes on and on and it's all about being a decent human being. The worse part is that more people have been killed in the name of god than for anything else in the history of the world. This is ridiculous when you consider the basic message is the same and people can't focus on similarities, but rather differences.

I’m personally sickened by all organized religion. I’ve seen far far far too much hypocrisy in the Christian religions. And I’d rather just be a decent person who makes a genuine effort to treat others the way I’d be treated. At least those I care about and aren't so offensive personally that they deserve nothing more than my contempt.

Cairo -

In the upper right hand corner of your browser window, you should see six buttons. On one, the text "user cp" appears. This stands for "user control panel" - ambiguous at best. Click it and wait for the page to load. On the new "user cp" page, look at the strip of options across the top - "My vB Home", "Edit Profile"... that's the one you want. Click "Edit Profile". Half way down the page, there's a large text area. That's where the signature goes. I'm sure you can figure it out from there.

Just curious how you would justify labeling these things as "ignorant".

<h2>A friendly note to Radar</h2>
This is not confrontational or insulting, please respond in a friendly way. :)

(Dave can be insulting, and this aint it ;) )

I don't see any problem here...after all, Radar is here to educate us fools.

Actually, I think Radar is mostly correct on this one. The only part he got wrong is in summarily dismissing the dietary, etc. restrictions. Most scholars believe those were put into religion to act as a stabilizing force for the society they were serving. For example - the whole idea of kosher, or clean products, was probably put in to protect the society from getting sick, etc.

Of course, I'd like to add - to each their own. The reason there are so many different religions is because the same idea needs to be taught in different ways. There's an idea in some of the more contemporary interpretations of Islam that the religion can be interpreted in different ways because God wants to ensure everyone has the opportunity to accept Him. I believe that this is the best way to look at religion, no matter which particular one you believe in.

I agree...although what do you and I know? We're idiots. :)

Dave: 2000-4000 years ago (the time period in question) people didn't have refrigerators and the middle-east tends to be hot. Eating pork was a genuinely dangerous thing. So when people started dying off they most likely assumed they were being punished by god. At that time the most scholarly people were the religious leaders. When people had trouble this is where they came for help. These leaders most likely figured out the common element in these deaths was pork and in order to stop those people from dying said something like, "God says eating pork is evil" which worked then but now pork isn't such a dangerous thing.

Now if I'm to assume that there's an all powerful creator of all things and that all my deeds on earth will be judged, I refuse to believe that my diet, fashion choices, or grooming habits will come into consideration. Maybe it's just me, but I happen to believe if we're to be judged by a supreme being, they won't be that petty and small. I would like to believe if there's a god, the way we treated those around us and the legacy we left behind will be judged rather than our meals, haircuts, and wardrobe. It's become painfully obvious that nobody on this board is allowed to have a personal opinion without being attacked, but I have them and will express them as I see fit. I personally think the ultimate power in the universe would be far too concerned with things like genocide, racism, war, priests raping alter boys, etc. to be concerned with what we ate for dinner, the outfit we wore to the restaurant, and whether or not our hair got into the soup.

I hope this explains why I consider things like dietary, fashion, and grooming restrictions to be ignorant. They mean nothing in the grand scheme of things; at least in my own personal opinion.

I don't disagree, but I guess I wasn't clear enough. That's not really the question I'm interested in.

My question is about <b>semantics</b>. I want to know why you would ever use the word "ignorant" to describe those things. The word "ignorant" is the most important aspect here, and your justification of why you used that word instead of others available to you is the only argument that really interests me.

Kinda like calling people who disagree with you "idiots"?

in all fairness, i think i called him an idiot first. i could be wrong.

~james

ignorant

\Ig"no*rant\, n. A person untaught or uninformed; one unlettered or unskilled; an ignoramous.

I suppose I used the word "ignorant" because I think people who consider dietary restrictions vitally important to be ignorant about the nature of an all powerful creator, or at least ignorant of how something so petty and small as the menu we order from would be to such an all powerful entity that, according to every religion, is concerned with our deeds in terms of good and evil. I think it's ignorant to consider food, clothing, or a hiarcut evil. I find the notion that an all powerful creator of the universe would be as concerned with what people eat for lunch when there are things like murder, rape, theft, adultery, and other things going on. This is my personal opinion to which I'm entitled. You may or may not agree with me which is of no concern to me. But you asked why so there you go.

Truth be told, I think it started with Shepps saying, "Let the kool aid wear off." But then again, he has issues, according to Radar. :)

So those "things" are ignorant?

See, I'm getting this feeling like you really didn't know exactly what the word meant, but you've heard it misused so many times that it kind of becomes this sort of de-facto derogatory adjective. "Don't be so ignorant!" when someone makes a tasteless joke. Which, of course, is really not in line with the meaning of the word.

There are certainly better words to describe both the seemingly arbitrary restrictions on diet, clothing & grooming and the people that place faith in them. I question the use of the word "ignorant" because surely someone as intelligent as you claim to be would never use it in such a manner. Now, to explain your usage, you have seemingly wrapped a reason around your usage and not the other way around. In other words, it seems to me as though you fabricated your justification for usage of the word because I called you on it and you realized that "ignorant" doesn't really mean what you think it means.

The reason I find this particularly ironic is because it seems as though you misused a word that itself would be used to describe someone who didn't know what they were talking about.

Of course, that's just what <b>I'm</b> getting from you.

Dave:

There's no irony and no misuse of the word. I'm well aware of the proper definition and usage of the word. Nice try though.

Not that I need to justify myself to you, but the word ignorant is used to describe those with little or no education on a topic. That doesn't mean they're incapable of learning, just that they don't have relevant information about the subject in question.

I consider anyone who thinks dietary restrictions are vitally important in their final judgment to be ignorant about the nature of a supreme creator of the universe and the motives of such a being. Clearly an all knowing, all powerful, omnipresent being would care about how well we treated each other and not about what we ate.

I think you were just making a feeble attempt to discredit me by claiming I didn't know the proper usage of the word and you've failed miserably. Better luck next time.

No, I think you're incorrect. Dave pointed out that you were name-calling a group of people simply because you do not agree with some of their practices. There are several religious leaders with extensive education on the topics you're discussing who still find them to be important.

While I agree that many of these practices are not as applicable to modern day life, I think many people hold onto them out of a sense of tradition and deference to their ancestors. That doesn't make them ignorant by any sense of the word.

What this really comes down to is acceptance of other people's practices. Dismissing them as ignorant does not show acceptance.

Folks of the Cellar:

Beginning January 1, 2003, I will begin charging each of you every time you reply to one of my posts. This should root out who is worthy of my attention. Kindly forward your billing information and a major credit card (MC/VISA/AMEX accepted) to me via PM.

Thank you.

Wow...it must be nice to know with such certainty what an omnicient, omnipotent and omnipresent being would do. *Some* folks would call a claim to that knowlege delusional (or blasphemous, depending on their own belief system). But not me.

That would be WWOOOBD, right? :-)

All they may be ignorant about is YOUR understanding of the nature of a supreme creator of the universe and motives of such a being.

Religion is belief, which is effectively a special, often impereable to change, OPINION about the world, how it works, and what meaning is assigned to it and to the individual participants in it.

I'd be wary of issuing a proclamation to all the peoples of the world on the right and wrong way to worship until you've walked a mile in everybody else's mocassins ...

You get a very different sense of a religion from the inside, vs. even a very critical look from the outside.

I can read Torah, Talmud, Kaballah ... and I will never have a full understanding of what it truly means to be an observant, or particularly, an Orthodox Jew. Ditto for any understanding I may gain of Islam by reading the Koran. However, despite my "lapsing" I do have an understanding of what it means to be Catholic.

I'm not being a cheerleader for religion here. I'm quite the happy heathen, as it happens. Just because you think some practice is silly or outdated or nonutilitarian, does not invalidate it.

I'm just suggesting that just maybe you come up a few answers short of omniscience yourself, is all.

**Oh shit, where'd that soapbox come from, and how did i end up standing on it??**

will you be accepting paypal?

~james

It is. And you used it to describe <b>things</b>. I'll quote it back to you.

Now, how are "things like restrictions on diet, wardrobe, grooming, etc." "those with little or no education on a topic"?

Don't worry; I fully expect you to carry this until the very end, refusing to admit that you misused a word. There is an adjective we use to describe people with that characteristic; it is "immature".

*gasp!*

Dave, what the hell are you doing?!

You're going to wind up on the Ignore List!!!

Aaaaaahhhh!! *runs*

He can't put himself on his own ignore list, can he? :-)

I wasn't going to say anything, but now that syc picked up on it I better get my reply in while the rates are still low. After 1/1 I won't be able to afford it. :-)

Hmmm...

"You know, I just can't stand myself, so I'm gonna just ignore myself for a while."

Actually, now that I think about it, Radar's ignore list should be the "in" thing. You know, all the cool people are going to be on the ignore list. If you're not being ignored, you're not cool. :)

Perhaps we can set up a bulk rate for replies...you know, you pay for 100, you get a discount. ;)

Funny that you mentioned paypal James...I just set up my account fully last week. I'm going to start taking donations for the Sycamore General Wellness Fund soon. :)

Hey, maybe that's why we haven't heard been hearing as much from Radar lately...he's put everyone on the ignore list!

And Sycamore, can I pre-pay in bulk?

I'm telling you hermit...we are now officially "big ballers" as rappers might say. Maybe we can create a secret handshake next.

And yes, I will sell pre-paid bulk packages.

Let me know when I owe too much so I can declare bankruptcy. Then you too can wade through reams of bankruptcy court filings.

is it okay if i just pretend i paid, and when you ask me why you havent received my payment, i can just say that it must be a problem with paypal? :)

~james