ok; thought maybe you meant Hitchens, the author from the article

I was probably trying to combine their names...:3eye:.

Even though the Church (Pope) is guilty of non-action, or the wrong action, the Church (Pope) isn't responsible for the non-action by all those district attorneys. These are civil crimes, felonies, that should have been prosecuted. If more DAs had done that, more people would have spoken up. Seeing others complain, and be ignored by law enforcement, has a chilling effect on the rest.

Like I said, its a matter of breaking through that 'force field' that seems to protect the church. DA's non-action is an off shoot of that. Putting pressure on arresting the Pope is just a way of keep the issue alive and hot.

understand I'm not making apologies for the RC church, but to me it's a complex issue and one that I spend a lot of time thinking about. Going after the pope just strikes me as a grandstanding move. Maybe it's what's needed, but I tend to think it's a futile gesture.

I don't like churches in general, and I think power corrupts. But I think the priests were at first trying to apply prayer and compassion to this problem and to their brothers. This was their SOP, because they live in a different world from the secular, civil world we live in. To us, it makes sense to go through the civil authorities--to them, not so much. These men seek their answers from above, either through their own hierarchy or from the divine.

I see sex with children as a constant variation of human sexual norms throughout history. It is abhorrent to me, because a child cannot consent. No culture today condones it, but no one has a good system for addressing the problem in place. We as a society, are playing catchup, trying to mitigate a problem that has been with us all along, in all segments of society. How many children have been sexually abused by their parents or close relatives? Far more than were victimized by religious. [ETA] What about the young girls being sold into sexual slavery by their parents in Yemen and other places? And yet, so very little education or preventive measure are in place even today.

As far as the church goes, I see secrecy and naivete making the problem worse. Not only did the priests not talk about the issue of pedophilia, but normal human sexuality is not addressed in seminaries. There was no framework for these men to even begin to understand their problem or seek help. Efforts have been made to correct this, and to formulate more open rules and procedures. Is it enough? dunno. All of the religious people I've met are sincerely appalled and ashamed, and compassionate to the victims.

I also see greed and opportunism on the part of journalists, LEOs, politicians, and yes, even victims. They wait 30 years, and all of a sudden claim to remember being abused, and now blame all of their loser lives on it, and want millions of dollars. That's an oversimplification, or course, but there's no doubt that greed and revenge is playing a part in this situation.

I'm just working through these thoughts.

Wait, you're saying that the church has been filing police reports about the crimes committed by priests all along and the DAs have just not been prosecuting them?

Each church diocese has kept detailed records of their pedophiles and other 'crimes'. But the only DA I know of that subpoenaed those records is Lynn Abraham of Philadelphia. Those were published in the Philly Inquirer. Some of it still exists in Philadelphia Grand Jury Report on Pedophile Priests And the Archbishops Who Protect Them

So yes, we should be asking about the cozy relationship between the church and government prosecutors. After all, the Pope ordered all catholic lawmakers to change the laws to conform to church doctrine even if it contradicts fundamental American principles. How much influence does the church have on all Americans? How many DA's refused to subpoena the records that all dioceses keep?

List of where sexually abusive priests were located:
http://www.philadelphiadistrictattor...Appendix_B.pdf

No, I'm saying victims, and their families, have made complaints to civil authorities that weren't prosecuted.

Well Lady, in order to press charges, your kid will have to take the stand, and your family will be at the center of, possibly even blamed for, this scandal embarrassing the church. Or you can just let the Bishop handle it, and still go to heaven.

Got some proof of that?

You linked to the wrong one - Appendix B. . . This is the correct link

Interesting - A few quick points - 95 priests since the early 50's.
Some of these guys were dead when the church first heard. Many were let go/had power removed... They were very few where the church did little or nothing. In many cases the church did not know for decades.

Some number crunching should be done with this. I'd like to see how the data shakes out.
One guy was found with pron and had it removed - that was his "abuse."

Most were much worse and although NONE OF THIS IS OK with me and I'd like to believe that the first call should have been to the authorities upon hearing about this type of thing in ANY organization - even moreso from a religious one, but I still wonder how much abuse still gets covered up.

So why could Lynn Abraham have the balls to convene a grand jury. While prosecutors all over the country would not? Why was abuse so widespread but mostly prosecution had to occur through civil trials?

Had this been the mafia, the Feds would have been all over it.

Go back and read the rest of my post.

Maybe she's not catholic.

before the last 20 years, most kids did not tell. (Even now, most kids do not cry out of abuse, regardless of who is doing the abusing.) of those that did, very few parents believed them. of those that believed them, very few parents took it further. Those that took their claims to the police were investigated, and many were prosecuted criminally.



When I read this post of Bruce's, the first thing that came into my mind was: well, that's how they treat rape victims, too. Those in power do not want to address the problems of the powerless, like women or children:


only a handful of states still use the grand jury system btw

Shocking as it may be, that is not a quote from Dawkins, but from a Times headline writer. Apparently, it was misleading enough that even a Murdoch paper had to fix it - it is no longer the headline at that link.
Part of the reasoning in the article is that the Vatican isn't a real country, and the Pope isn't a real head of state. Not that I think the arrest will happen.