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So they're diversifying as well. Very capitalist of them.

Drug Cops Bust Cancun's Mayor
Link

I just don't see how you can look at the two issues as different, they are all quite connected. This was but the most minor of thread drift.

Any whoooo...

the New Yorker has a great article on the Drug Wars across the border in the latest issue, but it is not available on-line.

And the Atlantic did a really good one a few issues ago:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...f-mexico/7760/

There is another one about the people who function as the drug war executioners that gives a great view from inside the fight on the ground, but I can't seem to find it.

Immigration has always been a contentious issue, long, long before the War On Drugs. The violence in Cd. Juarez has almost nothing to do with Arizona's law. It's not immigrants who are shooting people in the streets and torturing and beheading people. It's not even happening in the US.

I will acknowledge some interrelatedness, but you can't just lump the two issues into a "Mexican problem." To you Northerners who don't own an atlas, Arizona is two states away.

I have been hearing some news that illegal immigrants are shooting people and worse.

http://www.examiner.com/x-24740-Huma...g-in-the-state

This was just after a very quick search...

Here is another one about the relationship between the issues.

http://www.drugaddictiontreatment.co...ars-intensify/

I think they have just done a better job of walling off the issue at the points where the major US cities reach out and touch major Mexican towns along the border and the more unpopulated areas of no man lands become the superhighways for drugs and illegal immigration.

Are they related? sure. But I feel immigration is a much broader issue. And my concern is primarily on the border violence a stone's throw away from my home and the repercussions for my town.

All the immigrants are causing all the drug problems.

Fail.

I have been hearing some news that legal citizens are shooting people and worse.

I have been hearing that outer space aliens have been shooting people with lazer rays and worse! I did! I heard it! I've been hearing it! We need tough legislation! :eek:

Understood.

HThis makes me laff. :)
Disclaimer: Completely detached from current thread topic, or how it may evolve.

Warnings set up in Buenos Aires National Wildlife Refuge.
Link

Not a large area, but not a good direction either.

So, the US Fish and Wildlife Service (federal government -the one you say is not doing enough) is doing its job at the Wildlife Refuge. Perhaps an over-reaction on the side of safety, but good for the feds.

Look, mine the Goddam borders and be done with it. Until the Mexicans get the picture that we are serious there is no hope.

Adopt the same policy they have for all illegals and the issue will be on neutral ground.

I'm torn on discussing the MS-13, but a couple more of them were recently sentenced for murder. They are apparently well entrenched here in the US, heavily involved in the illegal drug trade and their numbers are growing quite rapidly IN THE US.
From the FBI statement ...
This all happened in Alexandria Virginia - this isn't just a border state issue.

Clinton: It's all our fault Mexico is so fucked up.

The hell? Is she high???

a) Mexico has some of the strictest gun laws in the world - as a result, only the criminals are well armed. And at this point they are running the country.
b) If US drug addicts have a disease, and aren't responsible for the destruction of their own lives, how the crap can they be responsible for the destruction of another country?
c) Were chinese users responsible for all the opium the Brits shoved up their ass?

I think that is pretty much what this administration believes. The next thing is to send another 66 MILLION to them. Them being corrupt as hell. Perhaps we could use that money to help secure the borders and increase prevention. Nah - what we've been doing hasn't worked - she admitted that. So her plan is to do more of what hasn't worked at our expense. Great idea.

I dont think its quite that simple, despite the lapdog's jumping in and nodding like a bobblehead doll.

Most would agree that the so-called war on drugs for the last 30 years has been a failure.

And the issue of well armed criminals and drug lords in Mexico is due in large part to the illicit export of weapons from the US, aided and abetted by corrupt border agents on both sides.

I give Bush credit for pushing through the drug interdiction Merida Initiative at the end of his term, despite some misgivings I have about the program.

He did so because, for the first time in years, Mexico has a president in Calderon who is not corrupt (or far less corrupt that his predecessors) and committed to taking on the drug lords. But he certainly cant do it alone and both Bush and Obama recognized that fact.

At the same time, we cant keep throwing money at it if Calderon is unwilling or unable to act more aggressively and it seems like he cant or wont because I suspect he fears for his own life.

I think Clinton's remarks were diplomaticspeak to give him a little cover and some level of assurances that we wont abandon him completely and will continue to fund the Merida Intiative

And if you look at policies and funding levels, we have committed more in the last few years to focus on preventing the worst of the criminal types (as opposed to the common workers) from crossing into the US and focus on catching, detaining and deporting the criminal types (as opposed to the common worker) as well as stopping or slowing the flow of weapons from the US to Mexico.

It is easy to criticize, particularly at a superficial level. It is harder to offer construction solutions.

As to the suggestion for more "money to help secure the borders and increase prevention" that is exactly what has occurred over the last two budget cycles.

I don't think so, most of the pictures of seized cartel caches are eastern European or Chinese weapons. They would be cheaper and larger caliber then US weapons, also. Most of the US weapons pictured are fancy (gold plated, engraved) hand guns, for the big shots (no pun).

Oh, and it believe it's Clinton she, not he.

You do understand that the gratuitous slap at classic will stop the very people you'd like to convince from reading the rest of your post which was actually quite good. Please take this comment in the spirit I intend. I want more lucid cogent commentary, which you can bring and less team play which is hard to avoid but quite destructive of our goals. Be bigger than the other team.


Illegal cross border traffic is the big thing I see which we can reduce to assist Mexico and ourselves. The three trafficked items are people, drugs, and guns. I think we have the political will to change the immigration policy. We need to make it easier to enter the country legally than illegally. That means more work visas for unskilled seasonal agriculture and improved enforcement of visa rules. We can decriminalize pot and start the discussion about how we move from a prison-based to a treatment-based model for less acceptable drugs. Guns are part of the tightened border issue as there is little that can be done without an amendment to the Constitution which there is no consensus for.

Our constitution, or theirs?

I have a hard time reconciling throwing a bunch more money at Mexico to do what we could just do ourselves. Why give them them helicopters when we could use them on our side of the border. Not that our government is a model of efficiency, but large percentages of money vanishes when it changes hands like this...
I completely agree with fortifying our border, working to make sure guns and money aren't going south, people and drugs coming north. I also agree with sweeping immigration reform - a combo of making it easier to enter legally, amnesty for illegals already here, stricter enforcement of visas (we will have to ask to see papers to do this) and tougher penalties for new illegals. All at the same time.

Why did the drug trafficking from Columbia shift to Mexico, away from the Caribbean?

A significant number of the weapons are exported from the US:
Granted this only represents those weapons seized by the Mexicans and submitted to ATF...but it is not a small number.

Oh, and the "he" to whom I referrred was Bush, who created the Merida Initiative in 2007-08. Obama/Clinton have continued with the program, with minor tweaks.

I dont want to throw good money after, and as I said, I have concerns about the Initiative, particularly as it funded right wing thugs like President Uribe (recently left office) and his para-military in Colombia.....but it is certainly in our interest to work with the Mexicans (and others) to take on the drug cartels.

IMO, Calderon is sincere in his interests in doing so, but too weak to make it happen, particularly w/o our assistance. The next president of Mexico could very go back to the old ways of corruption and turning their eyes from the problem.

Ours. There is no broad-based support for gun control, rural America can't afford it. Belief that there is broad-based support is the far left living in a cocoon much as the far right does on so many issues. I don't know anything about Mexican gun control. I figure as a left-libertarian living among right-wingers and working among left-wingers, I see a broader picture than most but still have blinders... that the cellar occasionally removes.

Do you believe further limiting access to firearms to US citizens is an effective way stop cross border crime? I'm not sure I follow.

No. What we need are positive pro-freedom ways of limiting cross-border black market trafficking. To me that means de-criminalizing drugs and increasing and simplifying legal immigration which can be done on this side of the border. That would reduce violence here and in Mexico. The Mexican gun violence problem is a result of the drug and human trafficking.

I absolutely agree with you. Those are all things I've suggested here before, of course they are labelled as evil conservative ideas designed to make the rich white guy richer when I post them.

I agree as well.

And I dont see these as "evil conservative ideas."

I would only add that comprehensive immigration reforms should also include a path to citizenship (not amnesty) with penalties for most illegals already here. There is no other practical or achievable solution to that part of the immigration problem. It is the essential "third leg" of any reform stool, along of border security and simplified immigration.

Beyond that, while there is significant overlap of the illegal immigration issue and the illegal drug issue, and can and should be addressed together to some degree, they also require separate solutions. And, IMO, part of the solution to the drug problem rests not just with diminishing demand, but working towards eliminating the easy supply.

If not something comparable to the Merida Initiative, then what?

Since assault rifles aren't available to civilians in the US, without a $300 per year permit from the feds, for each rifle, any assault rifle smuggling is being done on a wholesale basis. The feds know what's being produced, and arms export is closely monitored, so are the feds allowing it? Or they are being shipped to an acceptable source, who's selling them to the Mexicans. That would make them even more expensive, and doesn't make sense, when Chinese/European assault rifles are cheaper and more powerful.

I think non gun people classify any black gun as an assault rifle. The AR-15(or similar model) you can buy off the shelf is semi-auto (one shot per trigger pull) so no license is needed to own it. it's black and ugly but far from the assault rifle from the war movies.

That's true, but the ATF knows better, and if they were honest they wouldn't make that mistake. Same for the cops. Of course politicians, and assholes that purport know what's best for you, will lie through their teeth anyway.

Same goes as with every arrest of someone with an SKS, which even the cops call AK-47's, which they are not. But that really is another discussion.

Nothing can be changed until first we clamp the border shut tight, ala Berlin wall, at least for a temp period as we fix our immigration policy. Once that happens we can open the borders again, slowly and in a controlled fashion, as we id all those who are current illegal immigrants. The key is a comprehensive reform. But if we don't control the borders first the rest of the efforts will be futile.

Mexico is in a death spiral.

Obama will be here tomorrow marking the return of soldiers to Ft. Bliss. (and if you don't know, El Paso will be getting/has been getting a gigantic influx of soldiers to be permanently stationed here. Convenient, eh?)

Should be interesting to see if he refers to the border troubles.

Huh? That seems... unlikely.

His statement is basically something I've said dozens of times in the cellar.

I think there is actually a lot of agreement on the issue but people emphasize the parts that appeal to them. If only you could get everything into an omnibus package, because piecemeal probably won't get it done.

Well hey, we've already got financial reform and healthcare through (and even the biggest detractors have to admit, hate the legislation or love it, it got through which is a hell of a lot more than anyone else has accomplished on any major issue.) I bet they're just waiting until after the 2010 elections, then immigration reform will be next on the list. Or maybe they'll even push it beforehand to regain Democratic support, emphasizing the parts that appeal to the people who are ticked off at them. But I'd lay money on a very serious federal effort at immigration policy reform before Obama's first term is up.

I think it will only happen if the democrats hold on to both the senate and house. If not, there will be gridlock and nothing will happen on anything.

I vote for gridlock over what we currently have.

Actually I don't support gridlock, but I also can't support the "Rham it through" method that Pelosi and Reid have used. To many failed programs have already been passed.

You're right. It's funny in a sickening way. The Democrats will present immigration reform and the party who is screaming it for it will block it because it's initiated by the other side.:greenface

Frightening read.

It's very scary and very sad. I recently saw a tv ad for Mexican tourism. I'm thinking --not!

tomorrow is Mexico's bicentennial, and they are calling off most of the celebrations for fear of civilian casualties.

I agree Cloud, I have family members who have gone to Mexico every year for their vacations because of the cost, but no more, they are all going somewhere else for the for seeable future.

This is just bizarre. People are literally being slaughtered indiscriminately in the streets and in their homes, just a stone's throw away:

http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_16670537

Yeh - Since our last discussions on this I have been periodically visiting that site.

I have no explanation for that other than a grand conspiracy that even I cannot believe.

Seems like utter BS, but ????????????

Ok, since the start of Obama's stupid decision to go into Libya I can't help but think about a war much closer to home. Why not say screw it, let the EU deal with it and put our resources into issues closer to effecting our own lives. It really pisses me off that Obama would drag us into such bullshit of a police action while everyone sits around like this is an acceptable use of the military. How about we use the same resources on our own border? Shut the damm thing down and stem the tide of illegal immigration and drug smuggling with the same resources we are willing to commit to the failed state of Libya?