Your reasoning also proves that prohibition failed only because we did not enforce the laws. Reality - the only problem was the law.

What happens if we successfully enforce current immigration laws? Economic damage to America. It is already ongoing in the Silicon Valley where not enough immigrants (legal and illegal) can be obtained. Many of those who demand more immigration enforcement are also the reason why we need more immigrants. Those many did not bother to get better educated. As a result, we need more immigrants.

The solution advocated by those many? More of what did not work for prohibition.

What happens where immigration laws are more strongly enforced? As demonstrated in Nebraska and the northern dairy regions of NY State - the economy turned down so greatly that business owners even asked immigration enforcement agents to leave.

How to solve the immigration problem? Increase immigration visa numbers from a few hundred thousand to the millions we need to keep America productive.

None of the undocumented immigrants is defrauding the state or co-workers, or the country. The American government on the other hand is defrauding the American people, the immigrants who come here with or without papers, and countries all over the world.

The American government is exercising powers it does not legitimately have. It is writing and enforcing laws that are a direct violation of the U.S. Constitution.

In this case, the criminal act is on the part of the government violating the Constitution and illegally deporting people. You are a complete idiot who knows nothing whatsoever about the Constitution or what it means to be an American. You just run your mouth off about shit you have no clue about and make outrageous claims that you can't back up.

Deporting undocumented immigrants from America is a criminal act no matter how you slice it. They are not violating any legitimate laws by coming here, and are forced into using someone else's social security number to get work. They are still paying income taxes (another illegal part of government) and are paying billions more than they use in services. If the government commits a criminal act against someone, they have a take whatever steps they must to defend against that illegal action. For instance, if the government sends people to my house to take my guns away from me, I have the right to kill those who come to do it. Normally killing another person is wrong, but if they are violating my rights, it's no longer a crime. If the government is violating the rights of undocumented immigrants, preventing them from getting legal identification, preventing them from working without that documentation, illegally deporting people, etc. these people are within their rights to avoid such illegal action on the part of the government by putting someone else's number on their paperwork. The fault lies with the government, not with these people and only an idiot would even hint otherwise. This of course includes you.


I could say the same thing about you. You support fraud, violence, and treason on the part of the government. You support illegal laws and illegal organizations to enforce them. You're not only an insane asshole, but a pathetic moron too.


You are correct. I have absolutely no problem in violating illegal laws that the government has absolutely zero authority to create or enforce. But it is you who are "out there". I'm right here with the founders of America who prohibited the federal government from creating or enforcing immigration laws. I've just got common sense, education, reason, logic, the founders, and the U.S. Constitution on my side and you've got a bunch of redneck, racist, dickheads on yours.



They tried to melt your brain, but there was nothing to melt.

Most do not. And those that do, don't do it for long.

TW is correct. If we simply did the right thing and allowed a free flow of immigrants to come here as easily as the Irish, German, Dutch, French, English, Italian, etc. immigrants did...(just show up, sign your name, and make sure you don't have small pox) We wouldn't have any immigrants sneaking over the border. They'd walk right through the front door, get legal id's, get auto insurance, use their own social security numbers, and pay even more taxes.

The only thing preventing these people from using their own social security numbers or getting legal identification are the same idiots who complain about them not having any. They demand that government not allow them to get ID, but at the same time whine when they use someone else's.

Since the American government continues to do this, it is self evident that you are impotent to do anything significant about it. You've effectively been reduced to complaining in an internet forum.

Does this mean that undocumented immigrants have the right to kill U.S. citizens sent by the American government to deport them? It would make a fine loophole for terrorists.

Does something's not being illegal always mean that a right exists? Even if it is not illegal for undocumented immigrants to be here, does that mean they have a right to these things? What about the convention of public policy (e.g. there are no laws preventing females from serving in front line ground combat units; however, it has been public policy not to put them there)? Where in the Constitution are those rights of undocumented immigrants specifically enumerated?

That's not a problem, the problem is with extending your position to undocumented immigrants; because, there is no reasonable expectation that they know the basics of the U.S. Constitution and laws derived thereof which are current citizenship requirements. Additionally, there's more to any country than its Constitution (or other) and its body of laws. When someone gives overwhelming weight to just one aspect of a self governing body and prognosticates doomsday if there's any deviation, it is seen as fanaticism by many. Bad things could happen; but, as any psychologist can tell you, past human behavior is not necessarily a reliable indicator of future human behavior.

That my friend is why I relegate you to the category of For Entertainment Use Only even though you are very knowledgeable on the Constitution and I have learned from you. Thanks for sharing. :)

Hardly. I live near the border. I could help bring people here. I can make sure I hire them when I get a chance. I can call or write my legislature. I can continue a campaign of educating ignorant people about the fact that the U.S. Government has no authority over immigration. This is a very divisive issue and I'm on the right side of it.

Immigrants are not terrorists. If the government suddenly made a law that said all children under the age of 10 had to be turned into soilent green, and government people showed up at my door to collect my daughter, I'd be within my rights to kill those people. Government has no legitimate powers that each of us as individuals don't have to grant to it. Even then, government only has the specific powers that have been explicitly granted to it by the people. The federal government has not been given any power over immigration.

When government steps out of line and uses powers not granted to it, or when it works against the rights of people rather than defending them, we have a right to destroy that government by force and to replace it with one that respects our rights and doesn't step beyond the limitations on its powers.

Our rights don't come from government.

Every human being is born with the right to work for anyone willing to hire them, and every business owner has the right to hire whomever they choose. The government, on the other hand, has no authority to deport people, to require identification to work, to tax income, etc.

That is a flawed policy. The government has no legitimate authority to create a draft, and since we are all supposed to be equal under the law, anyone who serves (straight, gay, male, female, catholic, jew, muslim, etc.) should have an equal chance of serving on the front line.

[quote=NoBoxes;449736]Where in the Constitution are those rights of undocumented immigrants specifically enumerated?

Rights don't have to be enumerated. That's what it says in the 9th amendment. Governmental powers must be enumerated. That's what it says in the 10th.


The federal government has the authority to create laws pertaining to citizenship, but not immigration. Most of the undocumented immigrants don't want to become citizens. They want to come to America, work to send money home, and then retire back home. There are no requirements about knowing the Constitution for immigrants, but they are still protected by it, and so are all people living within the borders of the United States of America regardless of their citizenship. Unfortunately, there are no requirements for American born citizens to understand the Constitution either. This is why so many are clueless about it and think the government has unlimited powers.

People are self governing bodies. The Constitution isn't everything, but it is the HIGHEST LAW IN THE LAND. It supersedes all other laws, courts, congress, the president, etc. These aren't the words of a fanatic. They are factual and reasonable.

Your opinion of me is just that...yours. You have every right to it. I'd be willing to bet most people don't find me as entertaining as you. Most people are probably bothered by me or aggravated by me. But then again most people are assholes so I wear their hatred as a badge of honor.

That looks fun. Let's give it a try.

Top 10 Immigration Myths and Facts
National Immigration Forum

=================================

MYTH #1 - Immigrants don't pay taxes

FACT - All immigrants pay taxes, whether income, property, sales, or other. As far as income tax payments go, sources vary in their accounts, but a range of studies find that immigrants pay between $90 and $140 billion a year in federal, state, and local taxes.

Even undocumented immigrants pay income taxes, as evidenced by the Social Security Administration's "suspense file" (taxes that cannot be matched to workers' names and social security numbers), which grew $20 billion between 1990 and 1998.

SOURCE - National Academy of Sciences, Cato Institute, Urban Institute, Social Security Administration

=================================

MYTH #2 - Immigrants come here to take welfare*

FACT - Immigrants come to work and reunite with family members. Immigrant labor force participation is consistently higher than native-born, and immigrant workers make up a larger share of the U.S. labor force (12.4%) than they do the U.S. population (11.5%). Moreover, the ratio between immigrant use of public benefits and the amount of taxes they pay is consistently favorable to the U.S., unless the "study" was undertaken by an anti-immigrant group. In one estimate, immigrants earn about $240 billion a year, pay about $90 billion a year in taxes, and use about $5 billion in public benefits. In another cut of the data, immigrant tax payments total $20 to $30 billion more than the amount of government services they use.

SOURCE - American Immigration Lawyers Association, Urban Institute

* Due to welfare reform, legal immigrants are severely restricted from accessing public benefits, and undocumented immigrants are even further precluded from anything other than emergency services. Anti-immigrant groups skew these figures by including programs used by U.S. citizen children of immigrants in their definition of immigrant welfare use, among other tactics.

=================================

MYTH #3 - Immigrants send all their money back to their home countries

FACT - In addition to the consumer spending of immigrant households, immigrants and their businesses contribute $162 billion in tax revenue to U.S. federal, state, and local governments. While it is true that immigrants remit billions of dollars a year to their home countries, this is one of the most targeted and effective forms of direct foreign investment.

SOURCE - Cato Institute, Inter-American Development Bank

Side Note: When people in other countries have money, they can afford to buy American made products, or to travel to America as a tourist to spend more money here.

=================================

MYTH #4 - Immigrants take jobs and opportunity away from Americans

FACT - The largest wave of immigration to the U.S. since the early 1900s coincided with our lowest national unemployment rate and fastest economic growth. Immigrant entrepreneurs create jobs for U.S. and foreign workers, and foreign-born students allow many U.S. graduate programs to keep their doors open. While there has been no comprehensive study done of immigrant-owned businesses, we have countless examples: in Silicon Valley, companies begun by Chinese and Indian immigrants generated more than $19.5 billion in sales and nearly 73,000 jobs in 2000.

SOURCE - Brookings Institution

=================================

MYTH #5 - Immigrants are a drain on the U.S. economy

FACT - During the 1990s, half of all new workers were foreign-born, filling gaps left by native-born workers in both the high- and low-skill ends of the spectrum. Immigrants fill jobs in key sectors, start their own businesses, and contribute to a thriving economy. The net benefit of immigration to the U.S. is nearly $10 billion annually. As Alan Greenspan points out, 70% of immigrants arrive in prime working age. That means we haven't spent a penny on their education, yet they aretransplanted into our workforce and will contribute $500 billion toward our social security system over the next 20 years.

SOURCE - National Academy of Sciences, Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University, Federal Reserve

=================================
MYTH #6 - Immigrants don't want to learn English or become Americans

FACT - Within ten years of arrival, more than 75% of immigrants speak English well; moreover, demand for English classes at the adult level far exceeds supply. Greater than 33% of immigrants are naturalized citizens; given increased immigration in the 1990s, this figure will rise as more legal permanent residents become eligible for naturalization in the coming years. The number of immigrants naturalizing spiked sharply after two events: enactment of immigration and welfare reform laws in 1996, and the terrorist attacks in 2001.

SOURCE - U.S. Census Bureau, U.S. Department of Homeland Security (Bureau of Citizenship and Immigration Services)

=================================

MYTH #7 - Today's immigrants are different than those of 100 years ago

FACT - The percentage of the U.S. population that is foreign-born now stands at 11.5%; in the early 20th century it was approximately 15%. Similar to accusations about today's immigrants, those of 100 years ago initially often settled in mono-ethnic neighborhoods, spoke their native languages, and built up newspapers and businesses that catered to their fellow émigrés. They also experienced the same types of discrimination that today's immigrants face, and integrated within American culture at a similar rate. If we view history objectively, we remember that every new wave of immigrants has been met with suspicion and doubt and yet, ultimately, every past wave of immigrants has been vindicated and saluted.

SOURCE - U.S. Census Bureau

=================================

MYTH #8 - Most immigrants cross the border illegally

FACT - Around 75% have legal permanent (immigrant) visas; of the 25% that are undocumented, 40% overstayed temporary (nonimmigrant) visas.

SOURCE - INS Statistical Yearbook

=================================

MYTH #9 - Weak U.S. border enforcement has lead to high undocumented immigration

FACT - From 1986 to 1998, the Border Patrol's budget increased sixfold and the number of agents stationed on our southwest border doubled to 8,500. The Border Patrol also toughened its enforcement strategy, heavily fortifying typical urban entry points and pushing migrants into dangerous desert areas, in hopes of deterring crossings. Instead, the undocumented immigrant population doubled in that timeframe, to 8 million—despite the legalization of nearly 3 million immigrants after the enactment of the Immigration Reform and Control Act in 1986. Insufficient legal avenues for immigrants to enter the U.S., compared with the number of jobs available to them, have created this current conundrum.

SOURCE - Cato Institute

=================================

MYTH #10 - The war on terrorism can be won through immigration restrictions

FACT - No security expert since September 11th, 2001 has said that restrictive immigration measures would have prevented the terrorist attacks—instead, they key is good use of good intelligence. Most of the 9/11 hijackers were here on legal visas. Since 9/11, the myriad of measures targeting immigrants in the name of national security have netted no terrorism prosecutions. In fact, several of these measures could have the opposite effect and actually make us less safe, as targeted communities of immigrants are afraid to come forward with information.

SOURCE - Newspaper articles, various security experts, and think tanks

Anyone who has not been accused of being an asshole, stand up.

Thought so. Radar is right. Everyone is an asshole.

But he only said most.

I'm sure there are some genuinely super terrific uber-nice people who never get pissed. I've just never met one yet.

Radar you are one wacked out mofo.

This country will never be right until we get a handle on all these illegal aliens who have invaded our country and continue to drain our social services.

This is the most comical thread going right now and neither of you are even trying