god bless america
 

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It couldn't be helped, they were standing on our oil.

Imagine there is a runaway train that is heading toward a Y fork in the tracks. You are standing next to a switch that diverts the train from track A to track B. On track A, 10 people are tied to the tracks. On track B, two people are tied to the tracks.

Do you pull the switch?

I sell popcorn to everyone else who's watching.

benny

sorry, I couldn't tell from the post

are these images of Kurdish gassing victims, Shiite dissidents, or the children of those deemed politically unreliable by the regime?

please clarify.

-sm

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Damn it, Juju! Stop using logic while people are showing that the US is evil! With no intent other than to kill children! I mean c'mon, when have you seen the US do anything other than that?
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But don't worry guy's, the soldiers will be coming home before long. So those of you that seem to believe our soldiers intentialy kill defenseless children probably need to get to work preping safeguards for your own kids. Better get busy.

Don't these people get hot in all that clothing in the heat over there? Just curious.

Slang I think they're use to it, kind of like people around here wandering around in short sleeve shirts when it's 40 degrees outside. Plus it provides protection from blowing sand.

Then again maybe I'm completely wrong could be they all are sweating like horses underneath all that cloth

I'm sure whatever children are left will make nice clothing and shoes for me...at a good price to boot!

And at the same time raising their standard of living tenfold by actually having *a job*?

Absolutely! That $10 a week will go a long way in New Iraq.

I found myself wondering ... who staffs the Quiki-Marts in Iraq? Do they hire Americans??

With all the jobs that should be available in New Iraq, shit...I'll go.

but Unemployment must be huge right now! You will have to compete with so many people to get those jobs. Also (I'm assuming that you don't know the language) not knowing the language will be a great hindrance to getting a job in Iraq.

There might be some military-supported job you could get.

Ah, but they'll want good Americans with college degrees to come over and help out for a bit...and they'll probably pay a premium.

Think of it this way, Torr...they'll pay Americans phat money to train Iraqis to do it for peanuts.

Come on Sheppsie! We gotta get in on this rebuilding thing...we could sell Iraqis webhosting! We could control the .iq domain! I've got a good marketing concept in the works!

It'll be great...we'll be rich!!!

If we'd been smarter, we'd have been there for the last five years selling bomb shelters...

Syc, I'd like dibs on 'your.iq' and 'my.iq', simply for the myriad vhosts. I could make a fortune selling shells with the hostmask of, say, 'omg.fear.my.iq'.

It can be arranged...

(You see what I mean, UT?! Kabillions!)

Probably not, but I don't think deaths must be payback with another deaths, because contrary we'll never stop fighting. Don't you think so?


Slang, Is that all you are wondering about watching these images? :eek:

CENSURE
 

IT IS NOTE THAT IN YOUR COUNTRY CENSURE YOU THE INFORMATION.

Those photos are of the slaughter that it has made your country makes some days in Iraq.

Not you shame you?

http://asesinos.pakito.net

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People don't seem to like seeing the other side of the war around here. You want CNN and the war looks like a bloody video game, very PG. You watch Al Jazeera and war is hell, i think i know which is closer to the truth. Both are obviously seriously biased but neither is better than the other.

Thanks by showing that in your country also there is someone that thinks.

I think where most people here have an issue is that <b>we've seen this before</b>. We know this is going to happen. It sucks, no one <b>wants</b> it (except for Saddam and his followers, presumably, because it makes us look worse to the international community) - yet it's going to happen anyway. It simply cannot be avoided.

I agree that it's shitty, but there's a lot untold here. People always scrutinize U.S. media, so I ask you - where is your <b>proof</b> that this is the result of U.S. bombing? How do you <b>know</b> that Saddam's forces didn't fire a missile into an apartment complex to help turn international opinion against the war?

How many of these people hated Saddam and would gladly give their lives over again so that their family could live in a free country?

We'll never know, of course, but you present this as <b>propaganda</b> without even asking some relatively important questions.

In the end, it doesn't change a thing; they're dead, quite probably by U.S. weapons, and that's quite shitty. Tell me again, how many Iraqis have Saddam and his cronies killed?

do not think
 

What simple are!
Always the same absurd arguments.

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Re: do not think
 

Like yours have changed any.

Let me rephrase, then. Why are you so obviously against the freedom of an oppressed people?

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Do you have any new pictures to post? I saw all these like... ten days ago.

Also, in the interest of balance, could you do me a favor and post some pictures of Iraqis tortured by Saddam's henchmen?

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ETC.

And you?

Re: Re: do not think
 

oppressed people?

how you would call your to this massacre?
Release?

you do nots have libertad...ni of thought.

http://www.cellar.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3160

http://www.cellar.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3105

One need not look very far to see that many Iraqis welcome the Army.

I've been reading multiple news sources, and I'm not pro-war by any means. But <b>how can you argue against giving people freedom?</b>

I can't sit here and tell you it's a bad thing, <b>because it's not</b>. Killing and dying and war all are bad things, but freedom is not. I don't see how you can be so vehemently opposed to freedom.

Please, don't mistake! Say no to U.S. murders doesn't amount to say yes to Saddam's murders! That's enough with that!.

We are not against the freedom of Iraqi (or whatever) opressed people. That's all that we are in the conviction we could have avoided these deaths, we had to look for alternative ways to set that opressed people free.

I read a very interesting Spanish interview to Hans Blix. I would like to translate it to you, but it is so long and my Englis is so bad, and it take a lot of time to me, but if I can I will translate it and post it. Maybe Dave could help me with that... ;)

*shrugs* I'm not supporting benny really, all i'm saying is i'm sick of seeing UT post page after page of hapy smiling Iraqis and none of this which i think suggests a certain desire to ignore the human cost of the war - some the entire US media seems to be guilty of. It's all very well to say you need to break a few eggs to make an omlette but it's much easier to say when you don't have to live with a lifetime of anguish or look these people in the eye and be reminded just how fucking horrible war actually is, it's not a conincidence that the hawks in this administration have never been soliders and the one big dove, powell is a military man. Noone hates war more than soldier.

Rucita - whereas you demonstrate an ability or willingness to listen to all sides and attempt to form a logical argument, bennyhill has proven that he/she is not willing to do that.

War <b>is</b> a terrible thing. Everyone knows that. What bennyhill and others are trying to do is create extremists. Extremists on any side are dangerous. A moderate voice is necessary.

Yes Dave, I agree with you: a moderate voice is necessary. All type of extremist is dangerous, that's precisaly why I think war can bring us all much more terrorism. Violence create only more violence, because there will be always someone who wont be persuade about the "goodness", about the right side (if there is some right side) of a war. In my opinion war has been, and it's being an extremist act.

So, for example: Ali is a few years old boy who has lost his father and mother and also his arms in this war. He is laying in a stretcher watching around him and just wondering why. We can just say "well, this is the war" and watch to other side, but we can also think that there are too many posibility for that boy to grow up and became a new suicide terrorist. This is only one exemple. There are a lot of stories like this one in all wars.

Let's see, kurdish are fighting Iraq because a lot of them were killed with mustard gas in 1988. So they are right now paying back. Then what can we wait from iraqi people to do next?

See, that's the problem. "Payback" leads to extremism.

Unfortunately, it's become clear to me over the past few years that the United States is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.

I don't know what it's like to be Spanish, but there must be some people that will give you a hard time just because of the country you're from. Well, it's the same here, except it's pretty much <b>everyone</b> giving us a hard time. I went to Canada a few years ago to visit a friend and pretty much every Canadian I ran in to except for her and one of her friends had this big thing about me being a "yankee" and "from the States". One of them was bitching about American TV and being tired of seeing a McDonalds on every corner (the funny part being, of course, that he and a friend had stopped our whole crowd so he could get a burger at McDonalds just a night before). So Canadians are tired of their "culture" being "overrun", when we're pretty much the same people with the same tastes.

Then we go to France and they think we're unsophisticated cowboys. Not all of them, obviously, but enough of the ones I've run into. I know many Brits that look down their nose at us. Everyone in Pakistan seems to believe it's a war against Islam.

Everyone wants different things and we can't make all of them happy all the time. Many people were against the war, but when we get to Iraq, what do we see? Villages waving and smiling and <b>giving our soldiers kisses</b>. And then we have some of Saddam's people <b>beating a man because they saw him laughing with a British soldier</b> - and then, and you will agree with me that this is absolutely atrocious - <b>forcing him to watch as they soaked his son with gasoline and set him on fire</b>.

The United States, whether we like it or not, is the most visible country in the world. We're doing something right, because we have thousands of people immigrating here every here and millions more who would kill to. But because we're so visible <b>and because we're so open</b>, we draw constant fire from the peanut gallery.

I really don't think there's anything we can do about it. So we try to do our best and hope that history proves us right.

Bullshit, i don't think people have the slightest clue, its one reason they react so badly to being shown pictures of it. There is a big difference between 'knowing it' and and watching flacette rip though someone in front of them, or watch one of thier mates have his head blown off, or having their children killed by misguided bombs. It tends to make people squeamish, it tends to make them question their own support of wars and people don't like that happening.

No, they react so badly to seeing pictures of it because <b>WHO WANTS TO SEE PICTURES OF THAT?</b>

Oh sure, it's disgusting when you're eating your brekky, but for the sake of this argument, it's not disgusting, it's that people don't know war is bad. Bullshit yourself.

Your you consider moderated the behavior of your country?

Huh? Sorry something was lost in the translation there.

Dave the point is the media should be showing this stuff, not happy, smiling newly-liberated Iraqis but pictures of dead, mostly dead and rather pissed off Iraqis too, it's called getting the whole picture. They're *not* very nice images at all, but it is utterly essential people see just how fucking horrible war actually is, not just the CNN/Videogame bullshit that makes it all look so clean and neat.

pardon, this is the question:

Do you consider moderated the behavior of your country?


...

The war has not been as you the have presented in your media.

War is never a good thing, but sometimes the end results are, I think this may be one of those times. Smiling Iraqis waving at our soldier give me hope.

Been watching CNN lately? They don't make it look clean and neat. We're reminded pretty constantly of the ugly side of war. They just don't act like there's nothing good to come from it, 'cause there will be. But yes, of course, it's me who's watching the biased news sources.

Just remember dave we are ignorant americans who are spoon fed only the good stuff.

I agree with BennyHill and his pal...let's just ask Saddam to leave Iraq. That'll solve the problem.

What? He doesn't *want* to leave? You say he enjoys the torture, rape and murder his 'government' conducts on its own people? He'd like to just go on doing that as long as possible, please?

Well, okay...fine. We're sorry. Go ahead, Saddam. We should just mind our own business.

“BELIEVE ME, I have waited for this moment for 35 years,” said Majid Mohammed, an electrical engineer. “You must bring these words to the American people. Thank you, thank you very, very much.”

Bennyhill, I would like to see some pictures of the 2,000,000 people Saddam has killed.

Do you have any of those images?

I see some of them in the books that people are looking at in the torture chambers and prisons. They keep the personal records of the people they have killed. Do you have some of those pictures please?

O.K. then go on, war in the rest of dictatory regimes. Go ahead guys! And we'll see the consequences :(

Consequences: lots of dead Americans, lots of dead enemy soldiers, plenty of dead civilians and a lot of free people.

War definitely sucks. But saying that it's never just or that no good ever comes from it is completely false. Hello, Nazis?

OK. Would you like Syria and Lebanon to be next (as they fear), or should we go the other way and take Iran? Syria is probably a worse dictatorship, but Iran's working on a nuclear program. I suppose we could take a breather and do Yemen, but there doesn't seem to be so much benefit to that.

Forget about North Korea; we're trying to goad Kim Il Jong into attacking China and kill two birds with one stone.

I hope you were just "joking"

Rucita, no offense meant here, but you seen pretty much incapable of humor in relation to any of this.

I might suggest that you would do more to enlighten your fellow man by the application of good humor to a nasty situation that you really aren't empowered to change in any significant way.

Many of us here are ambivalent about the situation in Iraq. We see the necessity for the actions our government has taken, but we abhor wars because, well, they are abhorrent. Injured children do not make anyone here proud nor happy. Ruined lives are not a good thing, but they are an *unavoidable* thing when a despot refuses to leave power quietly.

No one here is trying to justify, rationalize or moralize the hideous suffering inflicted on the innocents in Iraq, but I would suggest that you point the finger of blame at the reason we are there, and not at the fact that we are doing what really, really needs to be done.

If Saddam's own people had overthrown him, many would have suffered, and much more so than they are suffering at the hands of our military. We are at least *trying* to minimize civilian casualties. Saddam's forces aren't even doing that. They weren't even trying to minimize civilian casualties when there was no war.

War sucks, we all known it. Now, can we discuss the need for the action and not the results? Or at least, can we discuss the possible long term benefits instead of the immediate carnage?

There was going to be carnage no matter what happened or who perpetrated it. I suggest that, in the long run, we may very well be saving lives in Iraq.

the violence justifies the violence?
the death justifies more death?

The U.S. do not liberate, have other interest in Iraq.

That's fine, my second Spanish friend. Time will show us whether the US is going to be a conqueror, or whether it will give the country back to the Iraqis, as it says it will.

Time will show us whether there are any chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons in Iraq.

Bennyhill, if the US does give the country back, and if the weapons are there, will you apologize for your accusations?

Because I promise you, if the US does not give the country back, and if no weapons are found, I will apologize to you -- and I will work to change the US government.

But if the US does the right thing, for the right reasons, and STILL you criticize, then your words are simple anti-Americanism, simple prejudice.

Be in agreement with you.
Seems me a reasonable posture.