Suicide: Read This First
 

For those who are hurting, please read this.

http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/

I wish we could make this a stickie ...

Seems like it was written by someone who has never felt suicidal. The main problem is that when you are feeling depressed is that it isn't a feeling, it's reality and truth. (Obviously that's how it seems, not an objective truth) The truly awful thing about depression is that your reality is truly colored by it, everything you see, feel, and think affirms that reality.

While well meaning, the bullet points don't do much for me and I'm only mildly depressed right now and far from suicidal.

Point 3 contradicts itself. If you need to be alive in order to feel pain then logically if you were dead you'd feel no pain. To feel relief (or pain) you need to be alive, yes, but to not feel pain you do not have to be alive.

While well intentioned, advice is not what depressed (and I presume suicidal) people want. They want the awful feelings to stop. Short of that a person could affirm the pain the depressed person is feeling, absolutely not try to talk them out of it or explain it away. That may work with someone who's having a bad acid trip.

Maybe the best thing you could do is ask them to please wait a day or a minute longer or another minute.

You have to acknowledge their pain, not tell them they have so much to live for and so on when living = pain.

Acknowledge their pain and offer hope of not only relief but joy. Certainly don't try to reason with them.

I understand what you're saying foot, but as a currently suicidal person reading this advice the first thing that meant something to me was this:

Suicide is not chosen; it happens
when pain exceeds
resources for coping with pain.

It seems as if you are saying that since what you might say to help such a person might not be helpful, then say nothing at all. I'd rather be offended by someone presuming they know how I feel than to feel like a leper watching people slowly backing away from you and keeping quiet. I'd rather someone dares presume to know how it feels than to be ignored and discounted.

Different things help different people. I think that is a nice article. It's a start, anyway. Maybe it helped someone today.

No, I'm not saying don't say anything, I'm saying Id' start out with affirming their pain and go from there and not try to talk them out of how they are feeling. I'd acknowledge their pain.

I am sorry that you are feeling suicidal. You are a very sensitive person and empathetic, that makes you feel pain perhaps more keenly than other people. Suicide may stop your pain, it may not. Few reliable witnesses have returned from death to tell us how it all worked out. A lot of unsuccessful suicides have reported instant regret during their plummets from bridges, etc.

Your feelings of despair are real, there are ways to make those feelings retreat, you are taking steps.

Consider that what you are enduring at work is really a form of torture, your response is natural.

When you are free of that environment I bet you will begin to feel much better.

Thank you.

Speaking as a person who has had friends/loved ones commit this atrocity, and speaking as a person who has had a pistol in his mouth more than once, I would like to put in my two cents worth and hope no one kills themselves over it.

(ahem)

BULLSHIT!

Suicide is the single most selfish act you can commit. And you can't undo it.

I could understand it if there is a pain/suffering issue, maybe.

Understand it, yes. Forgive it? Haven't been able to manage that one yet.

I think suicide is contagious to a certain degree. We have to be mindful of that right now here in the Cellar. I know I don't want to be losing anyone else.

I am sorry for your anger and for your lost loved one. I hope you will someday find the ability to forgive.

I want to clarify on my earlier statement, and then I will shut up on the subject.

Do I 'feel' suicidal? Much of the time. It floors me the things that run through my head. But I won't be committing the act. Because I got help, and I got support. I was afraid to tell my family when I was in the 'place' because I felt so ashamed. And yet they still loved me. And they supported me. The trick is to realize that these aren't magic tricks they're performing, and their love isn't something they'll just pull out from under me. That is what sustains me. I am not sending off alarms: most of you know what I've been doing to help myself (including posting my embarrassing and shaming thoughts of self-worth, and posting my anger, and posting my often annoying coping skill of making stupid jokes about stuff) and I will continue to do so.

But what I feel and what I do are, currently, two separate things. I'm going to keep them separate until such a time that what I do and what I feel are both tending towards positive behaviors.

This seems to be an excellent plan Infi. Here's wishing you strength to continue with this in the face of adversity.

I'm sorry you're going through this infi, but I'm glad you're getting help.

There are three factors that lead to a successful sucide:
1) learned fearlessness of the act of suicide
2) perceived burdensomeness
3) low belongingness

The act is NOT selfish in fact it is selfless. You are not running away your making the world a better place by getting rid of a stain of human, your relaving a burden from everyone you know. Dettachment can renforce that view by not letting the prober sense of persepice.
Now Leared fearlessness it a bit a of a trick; everything that we have been taught and every instit tells us not to harm to not relase our mortal coil. Facing death is scary and it takes a lot to go though with it. This is not somthing that happens all of a suddent it is a slow process that takes one down in to the depths of never ending disspar. One of the major risk is having a plan for doing the act, by planing you make that emotional distaces, which is why mental health proffestions ask if you have a plan.


I had some solated, burdensomeness a plenty hell I still feel like a burden most days. But leared fearlessness I never got, I had a plan. I have a plan. Self emilation like the monks. Self emilation on a live web cam if I was going to go thur with it that is how I would want to do it. In a final act of protest for what cause will be detrimed by curiumstance I sure there is a war that needs to be railed agaist.
However, I digress.

The artical gives some good information about resoreces but it is written by someone who has never been there. I have been on both sides of that call and rational is the last thing a sucidal person is.
This artical gives a bit more on the subject:
http://thementalhealthreview.blogspo...n-suicide.html

I don't think blanket statements of selfishness or cowardice are particularly useful. Everyone is different. Every experience of the world is different. Even if you have experienced what it is like to be suicidal, you only know what it is like to be suicidal in your own head.

I do have to say that what tora is saying rings true with my own attempt. I felt like a burden, that I didn't belong, I wasn't afraid of death, and I had a plan.
It may not ring true for every suicidal person, but it does for me.
Obviously it didn't work, but that is a good thing.

Sorry, I realise it looks like I'm answering Tora, when I was responding to Anon.

Ah yes I see. I find anon's posts very judgmental, although I do feel for those that have been affected by suicide one way or another.

My first suicide attempt - I was 8
My last suicide attempt - I was 18

That was 30 years ago

I don't mean that as any kind of a set up to being any kind of an expert on the subject - hell I'm not even an expert on my own relationship to the subject, only that I've spent a LOT of time thinking about it.

There's a lot I'd like to say contribute, muse about, but it's all a bit stream of consciousness.

One of the more difficult things for me has always been trying to separate the realities of my life, from the chemical processes in my brain.

There's been no shortage of shitage in my life to be depressed about. Growing up in a highly dysfunctional family complete with violence and parents who at the very least didn't notice me, relate to me, and sometimes actively disliked me - fast forward to a highly dysfunctional marriage - 3 disabled children, one of whom was extremely high needs, a series of failed relationships, a destroyed career leading to broke and a little hopeless at 48.

That's the reality of my life - no shortage of stress, no shortage of things to worry and fuss and bother and .... just plain tire me out. But that isn't depression - depression is the difference in my brain that says today "I can deal with this, I can do this, 'the sun come out tomorrow', he loves me, together we will make this work, there's always a way to make things better, and who cares if we have no money - we have each other" but then tomorrow the rats get loose and "gah V, this is all your blessed fault, you've screwed everything up you've ever tried for 48 yrs and now you're gonna drag him down there too, it's no bloody wonder he's falling out of love with you, and it's just so much and I am just so tired and hurt and there is so much work to do and I can't do this all by myself and I'm too f**king old to start all over again AGAIN, and at least maybe the $250,000 life insurance policy would make a dent in fixing the shit you've managed to make a mess of"

In the middle of all that - I'm trying to sort out the shit in my life, from the shit in my brain. IM - I get a feeling you kinda know what I'm talking about there.

THIS: oh so much THIS!
I won't say I still think about suicide every day, but the feelings of self blame, hurt, loneliness and just plain tired..... are never really far away. But oddly enough it's all the THINGS that need doing that keep me going. "I'm so tired of dealing with all this shit I'd just like to lay down and die and rest, but then who would deal with this shit?" I'm actually been a bit better since he went to Australia - I gotta get up and feed the dogs and clean the cats' litter boxes and someone has to do the dishes.....

Tired, this whole idea that I'm supposed to seek out help and therapy and ... it's just one more thing to do when just dragging my arse out of bed in the morning is a challenge. I actually did try to find help - there was counseling and therapy for a while when my first marriage broke down - that was good for me, BUT it's also hard when 'family counseling' was my mother's way of not having to deal with our issues. I signed up once for a drug trial, but was turned down on the basis that my depression is more bi-polar in nature.

Thing is, aside from Him, and a couple of very close friends, I've never said those things aloud. Considering I hardly know any of you from Adam - I've only been here a few weeks - it surprises me that I say it now. Accept that there is some protection in the anonymity of the internet - which is really great for talking for people who for whatever reasons are feeling marginalized. And well I really not quite sure why - accept that this place does feel 'safe'.

I gotta concur - ya know the last thing I really need right now is more guilt. More blame. There is a lot of shame in saying "yeah I've regularly tried to take my own life" that just adds to the fear/struggle/work/difficulty of looking for help and this idea of 'lazy, cowardice, easy way out' feeds into that. Shaming people - never a good thing, whether it's fat shaming, or feminine shaming, or suicide shaming - it feels a bit like bullying ... and I don't really think it helps anyone. I know it sure as hell doesn't help me any. It's not saying that sometimes there isn't an element of selfishness to it - "I'll show them! Maybe then they'll finally understand how much I needed them, and how badly they let me down, and they'll feel as BAD as I do right now" ... but I don't think shaming people for it is the answer to that.

Him has suggested gently at times I might want to seek some help - and I have thought about it (see above). But I've been dealing with this in my life a long time - and for the most part ... I've learned to manage my moods, my mood swings, to cope and in some ways even thrive. I'm not entirely sure I could write without the melancoly. And if I'm being truly honest I'm not quite worked through the whole stigma thing (not other people's - my own) about 'happy pills' - which at times seems really STUPID - I can give other people excellent advice about "if your brain is sick and a medication makes it better - then you really should at least consider taking it. If your lungs were sick with the lurgy and antibiotics would make it better you wouldn't feel 'weak' for taking that would you?" I'm dreadful at times at taking my own good advice. But the real truth is - I'm tired. When I need the help it's just so much damn work - not just find a therapist, hell I haven't even had a decent family doctor in 20+ years - scratch that ... in forever. And when I don't need the help, it seems silly and pointless. It's kind of like - there was a post a couple weeks ago .... 15 Reasons You May Be Feeling Bad - and in that thread a link to 22 Tips to Keep Your Shit Together When You're Depressed - lots of good advice there. I printed them out and put them someplace handy but out of sight - when I'm 'OK' they seem silly and trite and platitudes, when I'm feeling 'Fragile' I need to remember them.

Anyway..... I've rambled and babbled and carried on about this enough, probably more than enough, or more than you wanted to know...

Yes. Yes, and thrice yes.

The problem with heaping blame or shame onto people who are depressed, or struggling with weight gain, or addiction, or any of those things, is that actually, they're usually already well and truly overloaded in the shame department.

I just don't see that morality has a part in this. It's one of the things that winds me the fuck up about a lot of approaches to alcohol and drug addiction. It feeds straight into a self-destructive mentality and can make it so much harder to break away from damaging thought processes. Internalising a sense of yourself as 'bad' or 'immoral' or 'weak' because of the way your brain is wired up, is as senseless as feeling shame because you have spots on your face.

Agreed - I know "Interventions" are a tried and true technique for dealing with alcoholics and addicts - and thus there must be some value in it - but it feels a lot like the shaming thing - and it makes me very uncomfortable.

It makes me even more uncomfortable that now we're gonna splash that whole process - that is so raw and difficult for everyone involved all over millions of TV screens in the name of 'reality television' - gripping dramatic viewing - lets watch someone else's life be an even bigger wreck than our own so we can feel smug and safe in our own dysfunction....

/rant

Sorry - got carried away there. But I really really really HATE that sort of TV. I remember when A&E was about Arts and Entertainment .... ballet on Sunday mornings, and TLC was The Learning Channel and ran James Burke's Connections.... now it's all about watching the train wrecks...

slightly related rant
 

Oh, I don't know. I get bothered by the 'don't say this and don't do that...do this instead' things.

It's no wonder people are afraid to reach out and say anything. You hear people complaining about how people kept saying 'blah blah blah' when a loved one passed away but they said SOMETHING and that was probably hard as hell. I know how I feel: gosh, should I say this or should I say that? and it ends up best to just ignore the whole freaking situation anyway. Which is no good for anyone. And then you'll hear: they didn't call, they didn't come by? Why? Don't they CARE? No, they were so damn afraid to say the wrong thing.

So I say: say something, say the wrong thing if that's what comes out of your mouth. Give a chance to respond. Be willing to listen. Be strong enough to know that what you said might be met with chagrin or a sigh. But you said something.

I remember when the big thing was, when someone (a 'lesser being' like a cashier or something) would say "have a nice day" and someone would bark at them: DON'T TELL ME WHAT KIND OF DAY TO HAVE.

Well, fuck you very much then. I loved that when I was working hard being a nice little high school girl cashier in the farm market. :mad:

I might make me one of those sales buttons: I suffer from severe chronic depression! Ask me how!

I may not be able to tell you, but at least you wondered. That makes me feel less like a pissant running along the sidewalk, anyway. [/slightly related rant]

Just sayin'. ;)

point well taken...

my own personal bug bear is people who say "Hi, How are you?" as a greeting, but ya know.... they really don't want to know ... if you want to know how I am - ask me I *will* tell you, but if you really couldn't give a shit - just say 'Hi' and bloody well leave it at that

things that poke our itchy spots ... we alls got em :)

I know, but it's just a habit of social convention.

I don't care that they don't really care. It's just what you say to the cow orkers to pretend like the sight of them doesn't make your skin crawl.

Of course, social convention is why I want to live in the middle of nowhere. ;)

I typically only get upset if someone says "Hey bitch, you piss me off and I'm going to beat your face in." Now THAT's something I can respond to! :lol:

Yep

Social convention is why I do live in the middle of nowhere

of course that makes earning a living a real bitch

Social convention is the grease on the wheels of unavoidable social interaction. It makes life easier when you have a handful of easily recognised and reciprocated cues.

For instance: Around here, a standard way of saying hello is 'Hiya, are you alright?' (though that is shortened to something more like 'Hyalrite'). On no account is this to be taken as an invitation to discuss how you in fact are. Some acceptable responses: Good, aye. you? / I'm alright, you? Fair to middlin', how you doin? This done as you pass by someone you know

Sometimes it doesn't need a response. If i say hello to someone and they respond with 'hyalrite' they're not expecting me to say anything else.

It's nice though. It's just a bit of casual friendliness in passing. We all know the rules of engagement.




[eta] Re: the Stephen Fry quote. That advice is based on his own experience of bipolar depression (or some variant thereof). He's done some really interesting tv work around it too. Really has done a lot over here towards changing people's perceptions of depression.

Here's a documentary he did a couple of years ago, called The Secret Life of the Manic Depressive (Let me know if this is blocked btw)

Bear in mind, that some years ago, Fry had a very public breakdown: abandoning a major theatre production 3 nights into its run, going missing for some time; later discovered to have been suicidal, though he wasn't able to go through with it. He talks about that experience in the opening to the film.




One of the people he talks to is Robbie Williams (from Take That). Williams describes the way his depression manifested saying that he stopped going out. He describes it brilliantly though: 'I lost the cog to socialise'. Damn, but that resonates.

You are of course right about social conventions ... its just when you feel like you're dying inside and no one bloody cares and you feel marginalized and alone .... simple social conventions can make you want to scream - but truth is yeah, not the world's fault my brain chemistry is wired like a faulty battery :)

*nod* I knew the quote was taken from that - I have both parts of that documentary on the hard drive - they are interesting, very interesting... I'm inclined to think it does the whole documentary (and Mr Fry) a disservice to pull a singular sound bite quote out of a much larger and thoughtful work.

my bad

People contemplating suicide get it wrong because they see this, which is exactly backward.

I dunno. I never saw it like that.
Yes I saw the dead and dying and disappointment and ditress I was causing outside the noose.
But inside the noose? I never saw redemption. I just saw nothing. No more pain. All gone, everything gone, even peace. Dead body, no more reason to hurt.

The temptation is still there. Death on my own terms, not on a ward dying slowly of cirrhosis.

But the Quaker Meetings are a help.
I'm still a long way from Faith, but I like their mindset.
Could do with a bit of singing occasionally, though :)
Make a joyful noise unto the Lord and all that.

As someone who has come out the other side of depression, I have to say that a lot of the stuff you've all said rings true, but honestly, i think it's a different journey for everyone. I guess that's why it's such an insidious disease. There are no rules, and definitely no boundaries. I look back now and wonder how I could ever have felt life was so worthless and pointless.

Luckily for me, my issues were situational. I have a lot more empathy now for people who deal with depressive illnesses than I did before. Previously I thought depression was just people being sad and making bad choices, and I suppose to a point, I think that is the case with some people, but mostly, I just think it's devastating and you can't understand it till you've lived it. Not really. You can have sympathy and you can try and be understanding, but you just can't comprehend how it feels.

I hope I never feel that way again.

Hmmm

http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-848934

.

Well...that's not really accurate is it. Because suicide absolutely does end the chances of life getting worse.

What it should say is: Suicide ends the chances of life getting worse but eliminates the possiblility of life ever getting better.

Families love interventions as much as junkies and alcoholics hate them. I get a lot of those kinds of calls, and have cleaned up from the aftermath of far too many to think that they can be helpful in any particular way.

There might as well be a revolving door on the front of my office. I see a lot of the same people at least monthly, or more often.

I must be in a mood today. Intellectualize the whole god damn thing, everyone has a silly stupid opinion and some well thought out advice or some such. We contemplate suicide because of one thing and one thing only. It. is. hopeless. If you can't relate to the hopelessness through experience, and offer some hope through experience then all you really have is intellectual bull shit. It's well thought out and sounds nice, the fact is that the suicide rate has surpassed the rate of death by automobile accident in the US.

Keep up the nice sounding well thought out and well intentioned advice. The real question is just how do we offer the hopeless....hope.

The rule of threes applies here. A human can live for three minutes without air, three days with out water, three weeks without food, and three months without hope.

WTF, Joe, isn't what we're doing, trying figure out how to approach, how to reason with, people who we think are suicidal. What should we do, walk away, knock 'em out, ask if we can have their x-box?

Please disregard. I came home late, tired, rode hard, and put up wet.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

No, not disregarded, because "late, tired, rode hard, and put up wet" is when people cut the bullshit and get to the point. I wish you'd expand on it, because it sounded like you might know shit I don't. :yesnod:

one woman's journey in depression...
http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.ca...-part-two.html

Allie is back :)

Awesome news. I've missed her.

me too

Bloody hell, that was excellent.

I was wondering if I should post that link here ... nice one, Ocean!

"You may say, 'How can anybody who's got it all be so stupid as to want to end it all?' That's the point, there is no 'why?' That's not the right question. There is no reason. If there was reason for it, you could reason someone out of it."
Stephen Fry

http://www.independent.ie/world-news...-29323739.html

I really must go and listen to the podcast interview where he talked about it. Brave thing to do, be so open about mental health issues when he's in the public eye.

When he talked before about his breakdown and earlier brushes with suicidal behaviour, he was talking at almost a decade's distance and at the other side of a diagnosis and professional help. But this attempt was only last year. It underlines the ongoing, lifelong dangers of depressive illness.

I don't know why the thought of killing myself comes into my head so much. I have a lot of good things in my life. I think I'm sick somehow. I don't like the thoughts. It's kind of like having a bruise which is very sore but you rub it and it hurts and feels good at the same time. It's kind of fucked up. I really don't like it. I have hesitated posting this. I have a lot of shame about it. I haven't told anyone about it. I don't know what I want. I must want to live since I am still here.

But I don't like the thoughts. They are a distraction. They are like surprise wave of nausea. It's horrible and unpleasant. You can't anticipate it or prevent it and the unpleasantness, it stays with you.

Suicidal thoughts are nothing to be ashamed of. You're not the first to feel this way despite "good things in your life".
Have you got as far as thinking of how to kill yourself, anon? Can you try to make sure that easy methods are not at your disposal so that you don't act on impulse? Are you diagnosed with depression, are you on meds which need adjusting? Can you call the Samaritans when you're feeling suicidal?
Help is out there. Please access it.



sent by thought transference

Nurturing suicidal thoughts used to be my way of having an out. Now I see them as an internal alarm that I'm doing something wrong that I need to change. I also used to think that my ultimate escape plan would be to max out all my credit cards and move to some exotic island...work as a waitress or whatever. I know the plan has loads of problems, but it was a cool safety valve for me for a while. (this was when I was poor..lol)

depressionforums.org

A good place to talk about things and a good place for resources. Stay with us. You matter.

I used to think there was absolutely no reason for suicide, but after hearing how my 90 year old aunt suffers every day from cancer, I've changed my thinking. Every time I call her, she mentions how she wishes the good lord would take her home. She refuses to end her own life because she believes her soul will be damned to Hell, and I respect her beliefs, which is why I haven't mentioned anything to her about committing suicide, even tho I know it will end her constant pain.

Thats bothers me the most. I don't understand that God.

If the religion does a good enough job convincing you of how great heaven is, they need a reason just as good to not go there immediately.

Very wise.


Sent by thought transference

I'm not entirely sure this belongs here, but, here it is:


Dying Woman Throws A Party For 30 Guests And Kills Herself At The End

She committed suicide after her shindig. So, yes, it belongs here. Anon's original post doesn't specify that it must be a Dweller's suicidal situation.

I was away on vacation when this was posted and totally missed it.

I think it's normal to think about unpleasant stuff. Maybe not specifically suicide, but just unpleasant things in general. I'll sometimes imagine my loved ones having horrific accidents that kill them and take them from me. I actually visualize the accidents happening. I hate those thoughts and try to shake them out of my head when they pop in there. It's not something I desire at all, but they will just randomly pop in there, uninvited.

It seems like your thoughts are similar. Are you just imagining a scenario in which you kill yourself, or are you weighing it as an option? I wouldn't be too concerned about the former, but the latter is something that you should face and possibly bring up with people who can help you. The fact that you hate the thoughts sounds like it's just one of those unwelcome things that pops into your head, and isn't something you are actually considering.

Thank you...... I have that link on a thread on another site I am on about this topic......