What is a hobby breeder?
 

What is a Hobby Breeder

Note: this is written from the perspective of dog breeder hobbyists. While the same ethical principles apply to a hobby breeder’s management of a breeding program for dogs or cats, there are some differences in dog and cat breeding practices, such as the appropriate times to breed, that are specific to each species.


Hobby Breeders are dedicated to the preservation of a particular breed of dog or cat.

We do not mass-produce animals. We do not breed our female animals at every estrus throughout their lives. We rarely make any profit from breeding a litter of kittens or puppies. Hobby breeders do not “make a living” from their endeavors and very few even derive a significant portion of their income from breeding their animals. Our litters do not buy us fancy boats or exotic vacations. We feel we’ve done well if a litter “pays for itself,” and occasionally there’s a bit left over to buy new equipment or even attend a competition we would have skipped otherwise. There’s nothing wrong with a breeder making a profit, of course, but it isn’t the primary goal.

We test our potential breeding animals for known adverse conditions they might pass on to their offspring, to the extent that tests are available (DNA and other laboratory analyses, x-rays, physical exams by veterinarians with expertise in a condition). Some tests must be repeated annually to determine whether a late-developing condition has appeared. Even conditions that may not affect the animal’s suitability as a pet and its quality of life are of concern to the breeder.

While tests do not yet exist for every condition in every breed, we support research to find a means of identifying heritable adverse conditions within our breeds so we can reduce occurrences in our litters. The same adverse conditions sometimes found in purebred dogs and cats are also present in mixed-breed animals if the ancestors had them. The breeding of purebreds does not create “genetic defects” and the crossing of breeds within a species does not eliminate them. Hobby Breeders are knowledgeable about their breed’s health issues and take responsibility to breed away from them.

Purebred breeders carefully select breeding animals for traits established by a “breed standard” adopted by a national parent club for that breed and endorsed by a national registry organization. Physical appearance, temperament, and health and longevity of parents and ancestors are taken into consideration when planning a breeding. Breeders research the pedigree and health clearances of potential mates – hobby breeders do not mate just any two animals that happen to be of the same breed.

When a litter is produced, it is carefully raised in an appropriate physical environment. Veterinary care, socialization, exercise, good nutrition, and training are essential elements of raising a healthy litter. Hobby breeders generally sell pets with a requirement that those not of breeding quality will be spayed or neutered (S/N) by their new owners when they reach an appropriate age. Healthy pets must reach a certain level of physical maturity before they can safely be altered - juvenile S/N can interfere with the normal growth of a pet and predispose it to abnormal bone development, incontinence, and illnesses including certain cancers in later life.

Hobby breeders often keep one or more of the puppies in a litter that has the potential to grow into a future show prospect and/or compete in performance activities appropriate to the breed. Many dog breeds were developed specifically to perform work such as herding and hunting, and their ability to do this is demonstrated in field trials governed by the registry organizations and by actually working at this job with owners who hunt or keep livestock.

A Hobby Breeder’s next generation can’t be determined immediately, and those that appear to have potential for future breeding are raised by the breeder for several months, or placed with other knowledgeable breeders, so structure and temperament can be assessed and health clearances begun. In some breeds, exams can’t determine the absence or presence or degree of a potentially adverse health condition until the animal is fully mature – and this can be at least two years in some breeds. Thus, Hobby Breeders often have adult intact animals that have not been, and may never be used for breeding. Many Hobby Breeders don’t consider using an animal for breeding, regardless of its pedigree and health clearances, unless it can demonstrate its superior quality in the show ring and/or performance arena, or by “doing its job” in real-life conditions.

Most Hobby Breeders belong to clubs on a local or national level that have a Code of Ethics whose provisions they follow. Typical elements include:

• Puppies are sold directly to carefully screened buyers, not through brokers or pet stores.
• Pet-quality animals will be sold with spay/neuter contracts, and on limited registration or without registration until evidence of S/N is provided to the breeder.
• Puppies/kittens will have age-appropriate immunizations and other veterinary care before they are transferred to a new owner.
• Buyers will be given documentation including the pedigree, health history, and instructions for care and training of their new companion; the breeder will assist the buyer in dealing with problem behavior, health care issues, and other concerns that may arise.
• Throughout the pet’s lifetime, the breeder will accept the return of the pet they bred or assist in re-homing it if the owner cannot keep it – for any reason.

Hobby Breeders do not want their puppies/kittens in homes where they won’t be good companions because of size, personality, physical requirements, and other breed traits, so we screen potential buyers and offer continuing support to those we sell to. We do not want the pets we produce to be given to shelters or rescue organizations because there wasn’t a good match between breed and buyer, or because the buyer’s circumstances change due to illness, relocation, divorce, or any lifestyle factor that may affect their ability to keep a pet. Many of us volunteer at our local animal shelters, foster and re-home pets for our breed’s rescue group, or contribute financial support to these efforts.

We value our animals. They are not neglected or abused, or allowed to be a nuisance to our neighbors or a danger to our communities. Just as people who ski, sail, or play golf may make substantial financial and time investments in order to enjoy their hobby, we have chosen to raise and show our dogs and cats because of the enjoyment they give us and our commitment to their well-being and the continuation of quality in their particular breed.

C'mon, admit it... you're just into animal sex, aren't you. :lol2:

Seriously, what you have described is the best case scenario, but people being people will stray from that. There will always be people that will claim to believe exactly what you've described, but in reality cut a corner here or there. And a few that will cut enough corners to create a circle. Those people will bring down the heat on the rest, and of course the governments answer is alway draconian on everyone.

All I can tell you is that is the way I roll! ;)

People will be into extremes on either side of an issue. I find that the middle way is always the best.

I gotta admit...I wasnt expecting it to be about dogs...

What is a hobby breeder?

Octo-mom?

My mother was a hobby breeder...Cairn Terriors. Everything Nirvana lists about it is true.

However.

What Nirvana is neglecting to see is that her 'hobby' begets such things as puppy mills. And those puppy mills end up causing a lot of misery and harm to dogs.

I'm really disappointed to see that her one sided enthusiasm for her 'hobby' prevents her from admitting to the offshoot horrors that arise from it and also thus ignoring the necessary controls or regulations that are needed to prevent those horrors.

Restaurants beget ptomaine carts. You mean we must outlaw all restaurants to stop the ptomaine carts? They certainly can determine the standards to differentiate the two and write rules for each, can't they?

In PA recently they caught two brothers running adjacent puppy mills. As soon as the brothers got wind of it they killed all the dogs. The state's immediate proposed solution was nobody be allowed to kill a dog except a vet.
That's the way government works, they have a hammer and every problem becomes a nail.

WTF are you talking bout Bruce. Overreaction much? Maybe?

I'm talking about your "offshoot horrors", or have you forgotten them already?:rolleyes:

Not at all.

Then you should know what the fuck I was talking about. Punishing all pet owners, or hobby breeders, for the 2%, 5%, whatever, that run off and start puppy mills is stupid. But that's typical of the way the government works.

How do hobby breeders beget puppy mills?

Bruce I understand where you are coming from.

What I don't get is Nirvanas reluctance to understand where the 'heart' from which the necessity of these controls comes from. As a animal lover she should be aware like no one else about the horrors that exist for animals from the puppy mills.

Her attitude did absolutely nothing for me. It made me not respect her at all and I know about good breeders.

OMG

Once a demand for a pricey breed is created, then comes the puppy mills.

Thus, there is a responsibility to the breed.

Her point, and mine, is puppy mills have nothing to do with hobby breeders or pet owners in general.... except pet owners provide a market for the pet stores that the puppy mills supply.
So these draconian regulations they are proposing have huge unintended consequences on the other 98% of the people that breed, or even own, dogs.

If these 'Draconian ' measures actually end up protecting the animals, then Im all for it. Hobby breeders be damned.

I know a little about the dog breeding bi'ness, and a good bit about economics.

What I notice is that quality hobby breeders provide about 10% of the dogs out there, which means they are not setting the market price. I also notice that my local pet store that sells dogs is putting up Puggles at the same price as semi-quality Boston Terriers (of which I know a little, enough to judge the quality of). Hobby breeders aren't setting the price of Puggles, so there must be something else afoot.

Then the business of hobby breeders matters not so much, but the puppy mills do, and so taxing them to make them not as profitable is good.

So the solution is to outlaw every breed except one? Everybody must own the official government mandated breed?

They're is no reason why puppy mills can't be regulated, inspected, or in my opinion outlawed entirely, if they wanted to. But it's easier and cheaper for the lazy fucking politicians to just dump on everyone.

You'd make a great politician.

Bruce, thats where I think you are overreacting. Ultimately, the gobermint wont actually be able to exert the kind of control you are forecasting, but starting the business of control is really important.

Oh sure, we can trust the government... the government is our friend.
You think I'm over reacting because you haven't got a clue how the bureaucracy works.

One thought, puppy mills are bad. OK, we all agree on that, even Nirvana.
But what are we going to do about it?
You say trust the government.
I know better.

No, Im not really trusting the government, Im trusting the process.

What process is that, other than the government making laws?

The process of people making and adjusting the laws.

Oh, the legislators. Of all the state and federal legislators that make these laws, I wonder how many know anything about hobby breeders... or puppy mills except "everyone" knows they are bad? Not many, I'll bet.

So how can they write, or even make an informed decision to vote on a law about it? They have a staff member or more often a professional law writer do it.

This professional writer knows how laws (bills) must be structured so all they have to do is gather the information of what needs to be in the law.
Where do they get this information? Tons and tons of research... or a friendly lobbyist that presents the package all ready to use... no muss, no fuss, quick money plus perks.

But then the law (bill) goes back to the legislator and he checks it out to see that it's what he wanted, right? No, he reads the synopsis the pro law writer provides. No sense in reading the whole thing, it's long, boring and the legislator never understood what should be in it in the first place.

Lots of laws get killed before they come to a vote because it didn't say what the legislator though it was supposed to. If it's a subject that's really contentious, the opposition will pick it apart. But puppy mills?, "everyone" knows they're bad, so no contention there.
That's how unintended consequences get made law, that may or may not be repealed... eventually.

All this was explained to me by a professional law(bill) writer I used to know, and I've seen it in action too damn many times.

Why do I think I walked in half way through a conversation?

My 2 cents anyway.
I was anti pure-bred animals for a long time.
All I could see were dogs that had been bred into fearsome shapes, being bought for a fortune, while other dogs were killed for want of space - unwanted, unloved but dogs nonetheless.

Then I started looking into pedigree cats, because none of the cat homes in Leicester would let me adopt a moggie because I lived on a busy road and wanted to keep it inside. Then I met Diz & Dylan. Okay, they're not as mutated as some pedigree dogs. But their character is a million miles away from any other cat I know. I adore Diz (and still grieve daily over Dylan).

I know this has nothing to do with your conversation, which I assume came about because of some new law in the States. But I got my boys from a responsible breeder, and Diz is the light of my life. I know she made no profit out of the transaction - she was selling them because she'd kept too many cats out of love, and two neutered boys were easier to part with. Would I have paid more for them, to give the Govt a cut? No. I couldn't afford it then or now. Would I gve every penny I have now (okay, that's not much!) to save my boy? Yes.

Keep the Govt out of everything it doesn't need to be in. And that's coming from a socialist living in a fascist regime.

There are not enough responsible hobby breeders, there are way too many puppy mills, or kitten mills. Although I think we probably have less of a problem with purebred kittens/cats. If you go to a flea-market (or trades day), go to the animal section, I bet you 99% of those purebred puppies bein sold, are from puppy mills. This is wrong. Unfortunately people are greedy and consumers are stupid, so they will not regulate themselves in mass. If you don't want the government to step in to protect our animals, then you have to change the society's mindset. That happens alot more slowly than it takes to change laws (which is often too slow of a process as it is). So yes, I am in perfect agreement that sometimes it takes harsh measures to patrol the misbehaving, that also constrain the people who would otherwise behave.
On further note, I do not necessarily agree with the law in PA about only a vet being allowed to kill an animal. At the same time I see its usefullness, if the same situation happens again the law has a recourse to further prosecute the offenders.

Consumers aren't necessarily stupid, they may just be uniformed. My family bought from a kennels that almost certainly used puppy farm breeders for stock. We weren't stupid we just didn't know better at the time.

Want the government to step in to protect our animals? There is no our animals. My animals don't need the government, and I doubt your animals do either.

I also don't believe the government needs to protect BusterB's dogs, although people on this board gave him shit for keeping a dog outside. I would imagine there are plenty of people living in condos and high rise apartments, with little frou-frou dogs, that are appalled at the idea of a dog kept outside. I don't want those people making the rules.

Everyone has their own visions of what a puppy mill is, mostly from news reports of dogs treated so badly it turns your stomach. We all agree that must be stopped, but where does the governments authority end?

What about breeder that treats the dogs well, but cranks out more puppies than there is a market for, driving the price down? Or walmart bringing in Chinese puppies by the boatload, driving responsible breeders out of business? What is the governments responsibility there?

We should trust the government to do a wonderful job with puppies like they've done with children?

The problem is all those dogs on the Southern border sneaking in other dogs. Damm border collies or something.

I don't understand the need for more laws... The "mill" animals are more akin to livestock than pets or companion animals anyway. Why aren't the USDA inspectors all over these places already? You can't treat cows, sheep, or even chickens this way...

Doesn't the USDA only get involved if they were destined to be food? :confused:

I can't see why a solution along the lines of Jinx's idea wouldn't work.

We have restaurants. People being people, some will cut corners on hygiene, cleaning, pest control etc. Eventually (either after a complaint/tip-off or randomly) gubmint inspectors visit and tell them to either clean it up or close it down.

Why can't that work with dogs? Okay, there was one case where the mill-owners immeidately killed all the dogs, but that cost them their entire stock (i.e. lots of money) and should alert the inspectors to keep an eye on them.

I am pretty sure they are only involved in the very front end of the industry. Once they leave for the small butchers they don't get into the inspection.

Only thing left to work out is how to pay for it... maybe they could put a tax or something on each female bred. :right:

You know nothing about me Pico obviously. My hobby begets no such thing. I have bred dogs for 20 years and not one single dog with my pedigrees is in any puppy mill in the United States or the world. Screening and diligence is the key and some people just cannot resist being greedy, I am not one of those people. Most of the intact dogs I placed are in Europe in countries that do not allow pet mills because they have breed wardens. Those are people answerable to the government that gives breeders permission to breed their dogs using a certain strict criteria. Its pretty difficult if not impossible to pet mill in most European countries. There are plenty of hobby breeders with the same value system I have.

I got the impression that she was saying that your (and other hobby breeders) excellent style of breeding creates a demand for the breed that you simply cannot satisfy, so it generates the creation of puppy mills by the unscrupulous to satify the needs of those whos want one but can't afford/can't wait/don't understand the difference.... and so to a certain extent that makes puppy mills a side effect of your hobby...?

Every pet I have ever sold is sold on a spay and neuter contract without registration papers. This is possible to do without making new laws. There are already plenty of animal cruelty laws on the books. Blaming people like me for the greed of others and the stupidity of pet buyers is ridiculous.

We bought all three of our Rhodesians like that, on a neuter contract. There was no problem. We did our part. And they have been great dogs. They were not much cheaper which was the down side of getting them from a breeder.

That seems like a rather bold statement - How exactly do you track them and their offspring and their offspring and so on?

And there are many who do not. The question is how to stop one while promoting more of the other.

So they fail to S/N... they don't get the pedigree certificate. But they can still sell a puppy to people who don't care about the papers/don't know any better, just want the dog... for let's say, 75% of what you would have asked.....? Nice income, deal for the people who don't care about paperwork.... no, not your fault they don't care... but where did the desire come from?

/devilsadvocate

Rhodesian Ridgebacks are not a common breed and I suspect that they would be pricey no matter what.

The puppy mills (via the big kennels) satisfy the 'need one now' market. If you buy from a breeder yu cant just walk in and walk out with your chosen dog. You can at a big puppy kennel.

Sure they could do that but pet millers are crying now because no one is buying their registered puppies. I don't believe I am responsible for anyone's desires.
If you were an actress in a movie and you were a slasher is it your fault that someone goes out and murders someone else?

I forgot to add most puppies of my breed from pet millers are more expensive in the pet stores than I and others sell our spay/neuter pets.
It is up to the consumer to do their homework before buying a pet. The "need it now" mentality is exactly right Dana and that is not attributable to breeders such as myself.
I am not responsible for the war in Iraq either!;)

....you wrote the first post like it wasn't personal.... suddenly it is?

Not only is it bold it is factual. I explained why I know where the dogs are that I personally have sold. BREED WARDENS. I have sold less than 20 dogs intact since I have been breeding. Not too hard to track twenty dogs.
I know people that have 30 dogs. Not a number that I would keep and breed but they have plenty of help and the place is clean and the dogs are well cared for, who the hell am I to tell them how many dogs they can breed or keep? Who the hell is anyone else to tell someone what they can do with their time and money as long as it is not affecting you or harming the dogs?

Not sure what you mean, I can only explain myself personally.

Well your first post was: this is what hobby breeders do and why.....and then when people pointed out that maybe not all of them do, you said (paraphrased) "well I do...I can't speak for everyone else"... and yet that's just what you seemed to be doing in the first post....

... from 20 dogs over 20 years and
their litters, and their litters, and their litters, and their litters, and their litters, and
their litters, and their litters, and their litters, and their litters, and their litters, and
their litters, and their litters, and their litters, and their litters, and their litters, and
their litters, and their litters, and their litters, and their litters, and their litters....

How man litters a year? 2 - 4? at how many pups per litter and all those litters litters.
Most of which are being bred overseas. The numbers grow rather quickly.
One would think it most difficult to track all of them, if not impossible. Just sayin.
But there is probably a simple explanation.

I never said I could not speak for anyone else, I only said what I do personally. Hobby breeders have learned to now have a strong lobbying influence. I only contributed to the first post.
A conglomeration of hobby breeders wrote it as information for legislators to understand how passing animal restrictive legislation punishes the people that are for one thing spending money in their districts.
Other things that have been done is that we keep a running tally of all the money we spend in various venues while attending dogs shows and performance events. This information is passed on to the legislative bodies. We are not the same as commercial pet breeders and some of the laws that are being put on the books would put unnecessary restrictions on those of us that are not really the problem or the source of the problem.

You can only do what you can do.

Simple explanation for what? You think I am responsible for pet over population and you want to make up statistics for me? Unlike me you know nothing about the people that have my dogs and maybe they did not breed them at all. Anyhoo it is not really necessary for you to know my business is it? Just like its not for the government to know my business or to tell me what to do with my own property. Since you have no idea how I know and its impossible to explain it to you I guess you will just have to wonder.;)

Hey, I'm cool with what you do, but it's just that i can see the POV of those who aren't. Personally, i could live with all dog breed dyng out.... ;)

I can see why the uninformed have a problem with what I do but animal rights extremists have no right to tell me what to do.

Typical dog show weekend cost when I can afford to go. I am low balling it...

entries for two dogs two days- $100
gas to go- $50-$100
motel -$300
food -$75
vendors at the show[ dog supplies] $50-$100

There are 900-3500 entries of dogs at the show per day so lets say 700 to 2000 people for each day. Anyone can do the math here breeders like me spend way more money than we can ever hope to recoup breeding dogs. If you do away with our hobby you will do away with the revenues and some of the jobs this industry has created.

I never assumed to know what you did/do. Purchasing an in-tact dog does typically imply that the owner is going to breed. I asked a question and hypothesized how potentially difficult, IF POSSIBLE, it is to track all the "in-tact" dogs you sold and their lineage over 20 years.
You started discussing your business and the Gov't? whatever. I really don't care that much. I was curious how it was possible though. Whatever - Peace, I'm out. Curiosity in this cat is d-e-a-d. :)

Only in your mind is it implied that buying an intact dog = breeding it. Since it is my business you cannot possibly know how difficult or impossible it would be to track anything about the dogs I have placed. Giving you that information would involve telling you about the individuals that have my dogs and frankly that won't be happening. You are not involved, your points and innuendo are moot. Glad to know the cat is dead so is the horse. ;)

:bites tongue: repeatedly.