XXXXX Them to Hell! New Katrina Video
 

A new videotape has just been released showing that Bush was warned about the levees and the problems involved with the superdome before Katrina ever hit. From here

... warnings of the coming destruction — breached or overrun levees, deaths at the New Orleans Superdome and overwhelming needs for post-storm rescues — were delivered in dramatic terms to all involved.

All of it was captured on videotape.

The Associated Press obtained the confidential government video and made it public Wednesday, offering Americans their own inside glimpse into the government's fateful final Katrina preparations after months of fingerpointing and political recriminations.

"My gut tells me ... this is a bad one and a big one," then-federal disaster chief Michael Brown told the final government-wide briefing the day before Katrina struck the Gulf Coast on Aug. 29.

The video prompted Democratic leaders on Capitol Hill to reiterate their calls for a new investigation into the federal response to Katrina. House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi of California said Thursday the video "points out the need for an independent commission" to review events surrounding the hurricane.

Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid of Nevada said the video "confirms what we have suspected all along, that this Administration did anything they can to hide what really happened." He said the administration "systematically misled the American people."

What?

When Harry Reid talks, I stop listening. Is this supposed to mean that the administration caused the hurricane? That they "hid" it? What should we do with this information?

They lied through their teeth, Noodle. Bush whined on and on that no one thought the levees would fail. This new video shows him being warned in no uncertain terms that this was likely to happen.

Well, it's proof that Bush lied when he said that nobody expected the levees to fail. If you like to impeach presidents who lie, you could start there. Of course, he wasn't under oath, so it doesn't count. Right?

Edit: Marichiko beat me by a few minutes. My habit of opening all unread threads in a new tab in Firefox and then reading through them sometimes hurts my response time.

What do you all now think of Brown in light of these new revelations? He seems more on the ball then any of the idiots in the administration would have us believe. Was he a scapegoat?

More from The LA Times

This shows that Brown knew what was coming and told Bush. Talking about the problem is only half the battle. You're supposed to act on that knowledge. Did Brown actually do anything?

So you think they thought the levees would fail? Or that Brown, who until this point has been a favorite target of the anti-Bush crowd, is now a martyr? Or maybe that there was something they could have done in the 24 hours between Brown's warning and Katrina's landfall? I'm always willing to believe that a politician has lied, or at least that their handlers have caused them to. But I still don't know what the point of this information is, beyond "SEE?!?!? BUSH IS TEH EVILZ!!"

You think the mayor of NOLA and the LA governor would have responded if Bush had said, "You guys are hosed. We're sending our fleet of federal City Evacuation Busses to forcibly remove all your citizens from their homes, because your levees are going to fail tomorrow"? You think that a response of any kind on the federal level would have prevented the hurricane from doing the damage it did? Again, what did you want them to do with the information? Remember, it came from a "horse breeder with no experience" or whatever you were calling Brown a couple weeks ago.

Sure Glatt, everybody knows by now that you are a chronic and habitual Marichiko post–cribber. You have a monkey on your back. We want to help you, but you have to admit you have a problem.

BTW, noodle, I don't think anyone is saying bush could have stopped the hurricane, (at least anyone who is taking their meds) I think they object to his being more full of shit than the Agean stables.

Just my take.

They KNEW the levees were likely to fail. They didn't just THINK it. In regard to Brown, I didn't give an opinion, I was merely asking people's take on him now.

As far as the mayor of NOLA and the LA governor, I think they would have jumped up and down and said, "THANK YOU, Mr. President! We'll get the word out to our people right away!" The mayor of NOLA had been screaming about the levees for years. The Mayor KNEW better than any other official there what a terrible plight N.O. was in.

Yeah, it ticks me off when the President of this country tells bald faced lies to the people. I'd have respected Jr. a little if he'd been man enough to say, "Well, we had conflicting information," or "Federal response was terrible, and I am sorry. Here's how we are going to fix it."

If you can't admit to a problem, then you sure as hell aren't going to be taking any steps to solve it, now are you?

PS Yeah, Foot, I've been meaning to PM Glatt about that nasty habit of his. :lol:

Quotes and other information previously posted in The Cellar at
Tape: Bush, Chertoff Warned Before Katrina.

Impeach George Jr and repeatedly cite this post as an example of mrnoodle who is so politically brainwashed as to deny. Two solutions. Does mrnoodle have any? I didn't think so.

I wasn’t privy to the filmed briefing for the administration or the information the feds have available.
I only have the weather channel, the media and the internet. However, I knew the Gulf coast was in deep shit several days before Katrina hit.
If I knew, why didn’t the people that lived there know? Why were they waiting for the governments, state and federal to tell them? A shitload of people did leave before Katrina hit, I know some of them. Did they sneak out like the Baltimore Colts, in the middle of the night, without telling their neighbors?

We already know politicians are scum.
We already knew Bush is a lying bastard or the stupidest schmuck on the face of the Earth. I’ll go with the former.
This story simply confirms what we already knew, but to his longtime supporters, it won’t matter.

To reaffirm that “We The People” have to get off our collective asses and hold their feet to the fire. All of them, every “public servant”, whether elected, appointed or hired. And if they don’t respond, throw them out. It’s as much our fault as it is their’s.

You forget one very important thing, Bruce. Low income people who were just making it paycheck to paycheck. Katrina had the audacity to strike at the end of the month. A lot of low income people didn't have the money for a tank full of gas to get the hell out of Dodge or the price of a bus ticket. And where were they supposed to go? Where would they stay once they got there? Sure, if you had a car and the money for a tank of gas and friends somewhere willing to take you in, it was a no brainer. The people who ended up in the Superdome were the elderly, the handicapped, the sick, and the children - the people most in need of assistance and the precisely the people who did not get it.

Yes, every politician's feet should now be blackened over the flame of our national outrage. "Shudda planned," is a response lacking in understanding of the realities of life among the lower income members of our society.

The people that ended up in the Superdome are poster children, a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of people that didn't leave. People up where Buster lives just had to ride in out the best way they could but those along the coast were foolish to think they could beat that storm.
New Orleans was very, very lucky it didn't get a direct hit..... it would have been devastated by Katrina, before it flooded.

Nowhere.....they were supposed to die. It's God's will. :cool:

Having been a member of the lower income society, I disagree.

I planned, saved, and went without a lot of the niceties I now enjoy. Granted, I was only supporting myself on the $7800.00 ($650.00/month) I made, but I was able to buy food, pay rent, electric, water, and phone bills, and still keep enough stashed for an emergency, all without a dime of public assistance. Certainly if I had children it would have been a little different, but the people I knew that had children that were in a comparable income bracket to me got A LOT of public aid, that set those who had children on the same footing as those of us without.

Reality is that you should never live beyond your means, keep a reserve because life can be unpredictable, and don't whine about the choices you make or the priorities you set.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but I have little sympathy for those in our society that make bad choices and then expect the rest of us to fix it for them.

I've made bad choices (I doubt there's anyone on this planet that hasn't), suffered the consequences, and worked hard to set my life straight.


Oh, and as far as the problems with the levees in NOLA go, the most likely candidates to report problems with the levees may perhaps have been those who were supposed to be doing maintenance on them. On the scenes kind of people. The Army Corps of Enginneers. They did report that the levees weren't strong enough to hold back a category 3. But nothing was done because of problems at the state and local levels (ie, payoffs to the right people.) This has been a LA problem long before W was president.

$650.00/month, eh? How long ago? How old were you? Why were you working a job that paid so little? Did you have medical expenses? Did you have family that you could call on in case of an emergency? What made you mend your evil ways and become a productive member of society?

Please give your budget and circumstances at the time.

If you were in college, it SO does NOT count.

If you had a SINGLE family member to turn to, it SO does NOT count.

If you were under 25 and living with a gang of your friends, it SO does NOT count.

If you tell me that within the past 5 years, you were working a job, came from a low income family, had little or no education, did not have a single benefactor or anyone you could turn to, yet still pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, please tell all.

Here's a sample budget for someone living today in my low priced community:

studio apartment rent $350.00
utilities $ 50.00
food $160.00
bus pass $ 50.00
laundry $ 30.00
personal care $ 15.00
cleaning supplies $ 15.00
clothing $ 10.00
____________________________________
Total $680.00

That's not a dime for anything else left over. That's the meanest most frugal, rock bottom budget possible. Please explain to me how and where you accomplished this on $30 LESS in terms of today's dollar.

So the victims of Katrina deserved their fate, eh? You deserve to be one of THEM if that's how you think.

I used to live on $200.00/month. BFD.

The year was 2002. So only 4 years ago. I was 33. Actually I made most of that in 4 months out of the year doing taxes January through April, so it really averaged 650/month over the whole year. The rest of the year I worked temp jobs for something to do. No medical expenses. I have fairly good health. No family. No parents to fall back on. Wasn't in college, or living with friends. I shouldn't be mistaken as a productive member of society, as my lifestyle was my choice.

This year I made about 3x what I made then, mostly to support my disabled husband. We still don't live extravagantly. I was always able to make MORE I guess, because I had a decent education and I went to college (no degree, though.) I just chose not to.

Oh I've discovered that you can live on $0 per month, too. At that time I was living in a shelter and receiving food stamp benefits. Not a lifestyle that I would recommend. Didn't I mention that I've made bad choices too?

In the world contest of who's had it worse, I'd be disqualified before the first round. I've had too many breaks and too much luck in my life, and I'm hardly complaining, just offering a comparison.

Mari, if you (or someone you know) is getting an actual studio apartment for $350/month, you're living in paradise.

Most of the folks I know on public assistance (the ones without section 8 eligibility) are paying around $500/month for a single room, shared bathroom, no stove, no refrigerator.

When I first met Keryx, I was meking approx. $65K. I left that job and moved in with her. We have had ups and downs, but we remain together. now she works for a public utility and does very well. There was a time that I was sick with with no hope and homeless I made bad decisions to. Going into the service instead of collage was first. The nature of my condition is such that it comes and goes. We have a relationship that people dream about.

Let us get back on topic. Most of the people "stuck" in NOLA chose to stay, for whatever reason. It was thier choice. When I see footage of CG helo crews doing Katrina rescues alot of people do not want to leave thier homes. CG(Aux) members that were there have told me that they had to call on active duty Coastguardsmen to get people to leave. I am not saying that all people had the means to leave, but it seems to me that a vast majority stayed for thier own reasons.
To see me and a little of what I am about goto www.frappr.com/fargon

The rest of the year I worked temp jobs for something to do. No medical expenses

I rest my case. You lived on more than $650.00/month.

And, yes, Wolf, in my area its possible to find a little studio apartment for $350.00. I have a small, two bedroom cottage for $550.00.

What are you resting your case on? :eyebrow:

Well, from what I understand, if she made $7,800/yr from H&R Block PLUS additional income from temp jobs - this would have made her monthly income more than the $650.00/month she claims. If she really only made $650.00/month from H&R Block PLUS her temp jobs, I'd be damned interested to know what her monthly budget was and how she managed to save money in addition. Even Wolf commented that my $350/month for a studio apartment sounded like paradise. So, where's this lady's paradise?

To elucidate further: Take home of $650.00/month would mean that she was earning under $6.00/hr at age 33. Well, stuff happens and I can feature an honest, hard working person earning some small sum per hour for whatever reason. But this lady claims she attended college and was STILL earning less than $6.00/hour at age 33 with no children and presumably anywhere from 10 to 15 years in the workforce. OK, it happens. But then she goes on to claim that she even SAVED money on that wage and turns her nose up at Katrina victims who need assistance.

THERE'S where I begin to dig in my heels. I want to know just what this woman paid for rent, food, utilities, and where she was living and what her circumstances were. I want to know what she would have done had she been stricken by a major illness or disability. I want to know how she felt about life in "paradise" on a budget such as what I outline which is REAL world and includes not so much as a dime left over for a cup of coffee somewhere, never mind your own phone or God forbid, cable TV or an Internet connection. How the hell did she pass her time and did she ever wish she had the money for a pair of nylons or some make-up to look pretty and go somewhere? Did she ever wish that she could put a dime in the collection plate at her church?

She did very, very well for herself on $650.00/month and I'd love to know how she did it so I could share her wisdom with the disabled of Colorado who must make do with $580.00/month. I'll spare them her scorn, however. :eyebrow:

This flappin thread has lasted for about 20 post and now is about peoples income. What I'd like to know! WTF are any of you going to do about things?
Do you stay on your elected offical's asses about things? How do you know when they slip a big fucking into a bill? I'm not smart enough to know how. In fact most who vote on a bill, later claim if they had only know that was included would have voted against. BULLSHIT. I live around 100 miles north of the coast. The gov. hasn't given me a fucking thing. We had winds of around 100mph. Run! Hell this is the area where the coonasses come to hide from a storm. Anyway not one nail has been driven to fix my house except by me. FEMA passed the buck to insurance co. and SBA. Still waiting on a loan from them, because insurance isn't paying enough to fix. But still no contractor to do the work. I'm on the list.
I'm better off than a hell of a lot of people. And have got more help and offers of help from this board and others.
Most of this should have been post in buster's bs thread I know.
VOTE WISELY, but sometimes there's no one to vote for. yuk

Busterb, no lady like comment from me. You have no idea how many e-mails and letters I've sent, how many tears I've shed, how many sorry ass excuses I've heard, including one's like keryx's. Why don't you go ask her. She seems to have all the answers.

Back on the topic at hand. It is probably a safe assumption that a lot of the people that stayed with Katrina bearing down on them were just like me with Francis, Jeanne and Wilma here in South Florida ... I am staying with my house to protect what I have rather than take to a road and hopefully get somewhere that doesn't get hit. (the picture is a little different down here as we have to flee up Florida for 400 miles just to get to Georgia). Having gone through those storms in my house I now feel a bit foolish for sitting here when Francis was off the coast with 155 mph winds as my house probably wouldn't be here now if it hadn't weakened. But people prefer to stay and hope the worst will pass by to the west, east, north or south.

Also, look around where you live and think of the worse case scenario and think about what it would take to guard against it. No government can possibly come close ... did Bush and crew know that the levees could be breached? absolutely. Do they also know that NYC will get hit by a catastrophic flood as a result of a direct hurricane hit? absolutely. So do they spend 100 billion of the taxpayer's dollars today to guard against it? Tough call .... what about a tsunami on the west coast? going to happen someday? probably. So do we spend billions or trillions today to guard against it?

No one need spend $billions IF our leaders are not mental midgets. Look at what Clinton did after a previous disaster equivalent to Katrina. FEMA moved towns rather than rebuild them in the wrong place. Then when flooding arrived only two years later, so many were not flooded again.

One lesson still not learned are levees in St Louis that are too close to the river.

Humans who create unnecessary death is called the Ninth Ward in New Orleans. Rebuilding homes there makes zero sense. Making it even worse is the Mr GO. What about Bay St Louis or Pass (forgot the exact name). Why build any residences within one half or one full mile of that coast? Because ego is more important than intelligence. Those seafront establishments should be open parks, recreation centers, business, and other facilities that people need not flee to during inclement weather. It's called basic intelligence which too many $multi-million home owners cannot be bothered to agree with.

NYC is another potential disaster. No where near as likely as New Orleans. A hurricane must hit NYC just right. How likely? Well NJ has not had a hurricane strike in over 100 years. Somehow the hurricane has to turn left at just the right time and strike NJ in Monmouth or Ocean County. Then major floods would travel up the Raritan and Hudson Rivers with catastrophic damage. Knowing this, we build today assuming a 10 or 20 foot flood may someday arrive. For example, ventilation shafts for Holland and Lincoln tunnels are constructed assuming water that high.

BTW, some who have intelligence have authorized or done these studies. Flooding is defined on Long Island maps for each type of hurricane. I believe Category 2 puts JFK airport completely underwater. This cannot happen under MBAs such as George Jr who stopped all such programs in FEMA - cost control mentality. Just another reason why good Americans should be daily calling for his impeachment.

All this does not require billions. It is part of normal planning. It means homes - the one place all go to in worst of weather - must be the safest place in town. It means building based upon intelligent zoning and people thinking like engineers - not like lawyers and MBAs.

That's not what it says. She said, " I made most of that" doing taxes and "averaged 650/month over the whole year". The rest came from temp jobs.

Your budget has holes. $50 buss pass? I've lived at lot of places that don't even have busses. $30 for laundry? $15 cleaning supplies? What are you, a clean freak? Hell, you might as well get maid service. :p

I lived in Plaquemines Parish, LA for years and lost all but my car in Betsy, 1995? (Opps 1965) Of course that parish was, is ruled by a few. Any one remember Judge Perez on tv? It's a low place with only one road out. When you get people comming from offshore the road can get clogged becaused there were only 2 bridges across the river from the westbank. I remember a few times on IS 10 where the assholes turned the 2 lanes into 5, because Betsy was fresh in their minds. Anyway from the WaPo. "Neighboring Plaquemines Parish, by contrast, issued its order Aug. 27, helping to hold the number of storm deaths there at three."
BTW What I meant about ruled. You couldn't buy rolling papers or anything like that in stores. The jail at Point-a-la hatch? was rough I heard.

When I first worked offshore the oil cos. didn't pay much attention to storms, but after they got it broke off in ther butts a few times they learned. That became a pain. Living where i'm now at. Sometimes you would be out of, say Camron,LA and get sent in. Time you got home was a call to come back.
Stay if you like. It always gave me a few days off.

See, this is what gets me. You people who don't have to count pennies have no idea of the realities. Fine, how did you get around in those places with no bus passes and what did it cost you? And, NO, it does NOT count if you were a membr of the armed services, a CO rep who had the red carpet laid before him or any other such circumstance. Tell me about the time when you lived in Anytown, USA and worked 36 hours a week at the local hotdog stand and how you got there and what it cost you. Also, please describe how you got to church on Sunday, how you stopped over at your best friend's house and how you managed to make it to the Local Elderly Fascists for Amerika rally and what the costs were.

In Philly a WEEKLY transit pass costs $18.75. Tokens and transit passes are good on buses and subways but not on commuter rail lines.

In Colorado Springs, Colorado a monthly bus pass (20 trips) WITH transfer fees to my town costs $50.00. I can give you the number of the local transit authority if you don't believe me. PM me.

Philly must have the deal of the country on laundramats. Here the laundromat charges $1.25/load /per wash and $1.00/per dry. I do 4 loads of laundry a week. I'm an uppity poor person who changes my sheets weekly and showeres every day with clean towels and a clean change of clothes. I suppose you'd be complaining about how bad I smelled if you ever happened to stand in line behind me waiting to buy your bus pass. Anyhow, my Swiss, out of control laundry standards come to $9.00/wk or $36.00/month. My estimate was for smelly non Swiss background members of the population.

OK, so I lied on cleaning supplies:

Monthly costs:

Laundry soap (on sale) 2.99 x 2 = $5.98/m
Fabric softener (on sale) 2.99
Dish soap (on sale)= .99, x 2 = $1.98
Vacumn cleaner bags (on sale) one per month = 1.99
Bleach (on sale) $1.09/gal
Pine-sol type floor mopping detergent –generic- (on sale) $2.00
Ajax type sink and bath scrubber (generic brand) =.99
Total $14.00 mas o menos
Colorado state and city sales tax 7% = .98

Sum = $14.98

I LIED EVERYONE! My cleaning supplies costs are ONLY $14.98 NOT $15.00! Can you ever possibly forgive me? And I was really, really stupid to have picked up a road flare thinking it was an old (and therefore, harmless) stick of TNT. And I'm ever so sorry I tip toed back and put it back when everybody explained to me how stupid I was. And I apologize from the bottom of my heart for EVER thinking "flippent" was my friend and telling her about the Cellar. And I am really, really sorry I ever mentioned having to be homeless, camped on the San Miguel River. And I apologize from the bottom of my heart expecting ANYONE here to understand about mild traumatic brain injury or diffuse brain injury and I'm really, really stupid. Hitler was cool and Rommel couldn't have fought his way out of a paper bag and Katrina happened only to low lifes who deserved to die.

Now.

Are you ALL happy?

Well, why the hell NOT?????????????? :eyebrow:

And Mari left out a $1000 dog, plus upkeep from her calculations.

Wrong, the dog of many names was $600 and eats caviar every day. :p

Now, now...don't be snippy. :lol: She wasn't posting about herself, but the people she champions.

Your making the assumtion that everyone that in comfortable, has always been comfortable. Not so grasshopper, everyone has had ups and downs due to "shit happens" and/or bad choices. Some, myself included, have had to squeeze the poop out of that buffalo on the nickel for a condiment.
Because you can.....you're fortunate to have that option, many don't.
Walk, hitch a ride, bicycle, don't go......cheap.
(raising hand) No......because you're making it personal. You take any rebuttal to what you post, as a personal attack. Just because I don't agree with what you post doen't mean I think you're an idiot. I may, but if I don't say so, don't assume that I do, OK? :p

Sorry, Bruce. I have the flu which has NOT put me in a sunny mood. Point taken.

:grouphug:

It does cost billions unfortunately....millions don't go far these days (sad thought).

And your point is right on target, why build most of NO back to begin with?? Lets see, live below sea level ... in an area that can get hurricanes ... behind corp of engineers designed and built levees??? are you nuts??? Down our way we can see what the COE has done to the everglades and know that they are clueless :eek:

I think the reflex Bush-haters are making a lot of hay here by ignoring the difference between "overrun" and "breached".

"Overrun" to me suggests waves washing over the top of a levy due to storm surge (with the water able to drain away), contrasted with a levy being *breached*, a total mechanical failure with the levy no longer holding back the waters it contained before the storm, obviously a much more severe problem.

As the newsletter editor of the Phil-Mont Mobile Radio Club, I've had occasion this week to review the club archives regarding their emergency operations in the Delaware Valley during the flooding associated with Hurricane Diane in August of 1955. That storm is of particular interest to me because I remeber it quite well: I was three years old and living in New Hope PA at the time...so it left quite an impression to be persisting fifty years later.

With that for comparison, I'll keep my own counsel as to who I think is "whining" today.

I remember that storm very well, too, Maggie. It torn up New England pretty well.
When the 30 ft wide, 2 foot deep Scantic River became a half mile wide and took out the only bridge to get off our mountain, it took the Army three weeks to come and put up a Bailey bridge.
I thought that was pretty damn good considering we were just less than 100 people in no danger, we even had power, just couldn't go to work.
Meanwhile the cities and towns along the Conneticut River were really fucked up and hundreds of bridges, all over the map, were gone.
I liked Ike. :D

It only costs $billions when problems are not addressed up front. Meanwhile, I hope I have not given the impression that NYC has seriously addressed or solved their same problem. Indeed, NYC is on a top ten list of potential hurricane disaster spots. I cited the ventilation shafts for Holland and Lincoln tunnels because they are not high enough for (I think) a 10 foot surge. Since NJ has not had a hurricane in 100 years, then NJ coastline is ripe for major destruction. Again, construction that makes absolutely no sense.

Riding the Avalon causeway (20 miles south of Atlantic City) one fall when a NEer was pushing high tide higher. Those homes were cut off by flooded roads. I rode down a dry road and minutes later found myself in many inches of water. And this was not even a major storm. How can new homes be built here? Government insurance is one reason. No concept what a hurricane is really about - another reason that is too widespread along the NJ shoreline. So, for same reasons that New Orleans 9th ward is being rebuilt by George Jr, we also have $billion problems elsewhere.

Studies were done. But did we have leaders, or MBAs and lawyers where decisions need be made. One good thing about Clinton once he fixed his administration; he got problems solved. A responsible person could never say that about George Jr which is why people who talk nicely about the mental midget are driven by political agendas rather than advancing America. Only a mental midget or political corrupt officials would advocate rebuilding the 9th ward and some other dangerous parts of New Orleans.

In Upper Darby (Delaware County, Pennsylvania, adjacent to Philadelphia), there was major damage in a flood from a rainstorm a few years back. This flood was part of the Delaware River Basin. Part of this was due to the freak nature of the rainstorm which dumped 4-5 inches of rain in an hour. However, another component, if I remember correctly, had to do with the fact that the watershed in that area had been completely mismanaged. This caused the State to force the township to comply with the Watershed Act to fix the issue.

Watershed management and flood planning are very difficult for non-engineers to understand, which is why politicians never seem to have the will to address them until something goes wrong.

I agree that building NO back (below sea level) makes no sense ... and building on barrier islands as well makes no sense ... but ...

By this standard, you should remove all structures along the entire coastline of Florida (and Alabama, MS, LA, TX, GA, SC, NC, etc, etc). These areas are all in harms way and it is only a matter of time before catastrophe strikes.

BTW, history channel showed the Katrina event as a modern marvels episode last night ... they were saying it is going to cost 30+ billion just to rebuild the levees around NO ... and it would take a lot more to make it cat 5 sustainable.

Bashing Bush for this is just plain monday-morning quarterbacking

It was Bush and the Republicans who cut funding for maintaining this country's infra-structure in favor of going over and destroying the infra-structure of Iraq and giving Halliburten a pie in the sky contract to rebuild a foreign country while ours goes to hell.

If you own ANYTHING you need to maintain it. That's common sense, not Monday morning quarterbacking.

When I was in college I needed to get a ride out to Kentucky to visit my Dad one spring break. I looked at the university ride finder's board and there was a kid going to Virginia who needed someone to share driving and gas. He had a nice little red sports car that he had loaded the trunk down with cases of Coors. Typical frat rat. Well, I figured I could endure him for the 16 hours it would take to get to Lexington.

When it came my turn to drive, I noticed that the red oil check light kept flashing on. I pointed this out to him, and he said, "Ah, it always does that. Don't pay it any mind." I thought he should at least check the oil level when we stopped for gas, but he was more concerned about re-arranging his precious stash of Coors which he apparently intended to sell for some vast profit to ignorant hillbilly's in VA who didn't know about beer. Whatever.

Well, sure enough, the engine seized up completely around St. Louis, MO. You can only drive a car for so far with no oil in the engine and that little red car didn't have a drop of oil in it. My dad wired me the money for a plane ticket on into Lexington and the last I saw of the frat rat, he was sadly drinking his Coors and watching the tow truck driver haul his car off for either a new engine or a trip to the junkyard.

Somehow, I can imagine W. pulling the same trick in his younger days. :eyebrow:

New Orleans flooded because of 40 years or more of mismanagement of monies intended for disaster planning and levee improvement.

Bush is not causing milk to sour, nor is he responsible for the birth of the one-eyed kitten.

I knew I liked you Wolf! Bingo ... it is easy to blame the person in charge at the moment for a long history of mistakes ... I find Bush at fault for a lot of things these days (like what I think is a mismanaged conflict in Iraq, regardless of whether we should be there or not) but I do not hold him responsible for not rebuilding the city of NO or forceably evacuating the 20-30k people who were either too dumb or too poor to evacuate. Now he is culpable and so it the government at large (including that numbnut governor) for not having a better response AFTER the storm.

Well the levees did what they were intended to do. Levees were not constructed nor intended for this storm. Despite comments from a mental midget president, everyone expected the levees to be breached - and they were. The mental midget was told that repeatedly.

Why does George Jr declare rebuilding where no rebuilding should occur? That is classic mismanagement. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. That is a mental midget president who would rebuild homes below sea level AND exposed to severe hurricane disaster. The mental midget president only demonstrates why we end up spending $billion later to fix problems that never should have existed.

So where did the mental midget go as a predicted New Orleans disaster happened? He did a campaign fund raiser in CA. Now that is total mismanagement. The levees were not mismanaged. But the president is a classic example of mismanagement. A CA fund raiser that weekend! I believe it was to Orange County. Never for one minute say good things about the mental midget president and then call yourself a patriotic American. A president is so anti-Amerian as to even lie about the levees. So naive as to instead go to CA on a fund raiser when Brownie was desperately calling for assistance from everyone. His pleas to George Jr are even on video tape.

That is where mismanagement was. So badly mismanged that George Jr tried to lie - decalare the levees would do what they were not constructed to do. The levees did as intended. To find mismanagement now ongoing, 85% of problems are directly traceable to this president. He would even rebuild the Ninth Ward because his own popularity is more important than America.

When leadership was most needed, George Jr went on a campaign fund raiser to CA. Show me how that is responsible management. When Brownie was begging for top management to cut through red tape - ie let the Bataan participate in the rescue - where was George Jr? New Orleans is but another trophy in George Jr's trophy case.

Can you prove that? :lol:

The young are frequently foolish...one needn't look far to see *that* principle in action. Perhaps even so foolish as to think "what you can imagine happening" is relevant. But I missed the part where "maintaining this country's infrastructure" became a *Federal* mandate.

You're right. Let's go blow up the interstates. Stupid Federal government! :rolleyes:

Last time I checked, even the interstates are maintained by the state governments. Perhaps there's some fed money involved, but the work is done by the states.

Or maybe that's me...PennDot fixes INTERSTATE 83, 80, 78, (all the time as a matter of fact it seems).....

It turns out he was told repeatedly that they might be topped. The original story, page 4:

This was clarified by the AP:
Now, one might argue Bush doesn't have the mental capacity to comprehend the difference between topping and breaching. But we do, right? In one of them, a little water goes over the levee and the event is over. In the other, there's a catastrophic failure and the city is flooded. Agreed?

If we don't understand yet, let this blogger explain:

Total Cost of the Interstate System ($Billions) in some recent years
as reported to congress (the Fed's share is the number in bold print)

1958 37.622 33.952
1961 41.000 37.000
1965 46.800 42.000
1968 56.500 50.640
1970 69.870 62.500
1972 76.300 68.260
1975 89.200 79.520
1977 104.300 93.240
1979 112.900 100.800
1981 133.932 119.685
1981 Rev 119.000 106.200
1983 123.300 109.900
1985 120.500 107.200
1987 121.000 107.600
1989 124.900 111.000
1991 128.900 114.300

The Revised 1981 Estimate reflects Interstate System completion as redefined by the 1981 Highway Act.

I thought you might mention that. Go look up where the National Defense Highway System came from, and why. Note that it's not an excuse to fob off all infrastructure responsibilities onto the Feds. Far from it. Thank goodness.

Roosevelt, Truman and Ike pushed for it as part of the nation defense. The Feds still pay the lion's share of it to the present day. :rtfm: Levee's aren't as much a part of the national defense as Interstates?

No. Topping is not like the water that slops over the edge of a swimming pool, splash, splash, mop it up.
National Geographic and Smithsonian plus a show on Discovery or PBS (forget which), years ago, explained how a storm larger than cat 3 could raise the level of the lake 4 to six feet higher than the levees. In that scenario there aren't enough pumps in the country to keep New Orleans from flooding. Especially when you consider; A- most of the pumps don't have their own power supply and B- the pump crews were evacuated before the shit hit the fan.
Breach or not, in a big storm they're screwed and FEMA should have known it. :eyebrow:

The Feds have no highway department so they hire the states to do the actual work and pay them with the Federal Highway Trust Fund which is funded by fuel taxes they collect.
Federal Motor Fuel Excise Tax is 18.4 cents on gasoline, 13.6 cents on LPG, 24.4 cents on diesel fuel, 18.4 cents on gasohol, 19.4 cents on aviation gas, and 4.4 cents on jet fuel.

Erm...no.

As far as I can see, levees only "defend" the land they're protecting from the water that the land would be under if it weren't for the levees. Such land doesn't need "defending" unless you've decided to live there...in whch case I'm highly disinterested in sharing the cost of your folly, whether it's there, on the Jersey Shore, or on the Outer Banks. If there's some other national defense implication to the levees in NO you'll have to point it out more clearly.

Ike supported the highways because he had experience trying to move troops and material overland during WWI.

After Hurricane Dianne, the Corps of Engineers came though and rebuilt the bridge from New Hope to Lambertville. I was never satisified as to the explanation of why that was their job, but I was glad they did it...the ice cream shop was on the Jersey side.

Everybody knew it. It is why Mayor Nagin got on the radio Saturday night with a personal appeal for everyone to leave New Orleans. A famous and retired judge in NO was not going to leave until he heard that Saturday night appeal. Katrina struck Monday morning which is why that Judge safely got out of town.

Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center was so concerned that he did something he never did. Not once ever in something like 20 years. Max personally called every major leader. He did this to make sure everyone knew that Katrina was the big one. Did he call the president? Never said. But the president and everyone in that video conference were told this was the worst case disaster of Hurricane Pam and all previous simulations. Hurricane Pam was the disaster that everyone knew to be the worst possible disaster. (Notice it was known to be so bad that I used the word 'the' multiple times.) So bad that Max Mayfield did something he never does. Personally call warnings to everyone. Katrina was that much a disaster. Only reason that top management could not know - by definition - that person would have to be anti-America.

From those video tapes, Brown also knew this AND was literally begging -all but got on his knees - begged everyone to even violate rules to get him assistance. IOW he knew from Hurricane Pam that he was in trouble and was telling that to a mental midget president.

George Jr - as any mental midget would do - sat there, listened, never asked a single question, and never gave any direction. Even the Three Stoogers would have been better leaders. But then the mental midget president is also an MBA. No way around the reality of that fact either.

Contrast this with a leader who - by definition - was patriotic. During the upper Mississippi floods that were easily of same scale, Clinton asked incisive questions AND provided direction. Clinton did what anyone with minimal intelligence would do. Therefore those Upper Mississippi floods were only another interesting news story. What the mental midget president did was condemn some people to death. George Jr literally meets the definition of anti-American as well as someone with an MBA background. In fact, using the definition of patriotic American, even bin Laden is a better patriotic American than George Jr. At least bin Laden grasps reality. No wonder George Jr did not try to get bin Laden. It required him to make a decision - to ask incisive questions - which George Jr never once did even the entire day of 11 September 2001.

Is above an insult? Insults do not come supported by five years of examples and blunt facts. In every disaster, George Jr did nothing while people were dying. Not just in New Orleans. During 911 and the Indian Ocean Tsunami are previous examples. Never forget where the USS Lincoln task group sat for five days doing nothing as George Jr fiddled. Never forget where the USS Bataan sat for five days as George Jr fiddled. Facts that Rush Limbaugh liars hope good American don’t learn.

Does George Jr know who Nero was? No, it was more important to go to CA on a campaign fund raiser. There is no way for a single decent American to deny these facts. None whatsoever. George Jr has only done again what everyone should expect from a mental midget - with a history of letting people die - and then casting blame elsewhere.

Anyone who disputes this better have hard ass facts - and video tape. Fans of George Jr - hearafter called fools - cannot dispute this without lying - without posting classic Rush Limbaugh half truths and propaganda. IOW fans of George Jr would have to be as anti-American as the mental midget to deny this post.

But the better biker bars were on the New Hope side. We didn't need NJ's ice cream. Don't worry. Drink happy.

Not in 1955.

No wonder nobody listens to the left anymore.

No wonder nobody listens to the right, anymore. :right:

By the way, I want my tax dollars back for your ice cream.