One more job for immigrants
 

Great Post.

I thought it was the right of an american citizen to assemble?
Or just to assemble?

So the march was for rights? To express rights? Dosn't one have to have some kind of leverage to prostest with? Like the ability to vote?

Just things that go through my brain. I don't have any answers or the time to spend much thought creating talking points.

I just mostly wanted to say it was an interesting read. Thanks

I understand that the constitution gives all Americans the right to assemble and that protesting serves a very important role in society today. What I am confused on, however, is how people have taken the rights and priviledges granted by the United States Constitution and applied it to those who have come here illegally. I understand that ultimatly, we all are here through some sort of immigration, either our own or our forefathers, but even in the 1700's there was an established process for immigration. If you came by boat from accross the pond, then you probably ended up at Ellis Island, where you were documented and checked out for disease or other issues that might make you undesirable to live in this country. I mean, the concept of legal vs. illegal immigration is not a new one, and when the Constition was written, it was written to protect the rights of UNITED STATES CITIZENS, not the rights of people who broke the law in the first place to be here.

I understand that immigrants, both legal and otherwise, perform vital roles in our country, and even take the jobs that I know that I wouldn't want to do at least. Of course they have rights, but the rights they have as recognized by the United States are those rights that are considered basic human rights, not the other rights as outlined by the Constitution. We don't owe them anything for being here. We have created a process and have made laws allowing for legal immigration and eventual citizenship. They have chosen to break the law by not following the processes to properly immigrate here.

Ultimately, the U.S. government's responsibility lies in serving U.S. citizens, and one way they must do that is by protecting our borders and enforcing our laws. I realize that many illegal immigrants help our economy and perform vital tasks, but there are those whose law breaking does not stop when they cross the border, but they continue to break laws and are a threat and a drain on our society. And the immigration bills are just the governments way of protecting its citizens.

No, it was written to restrict the powers of the United States Government. The rights are the rights of all people.

What is a fact is that current laws are written as to create the problem. Laws mostly to appeal to those who FEAR. Those who see enemies everywhere - even in Canada. Those whose sound byte mentality see solutions in draconian actions.

The immigration laws have only made bad policy worse. Since you read everything pertinent before posting, then you also know about American trade laws, corporate welfare and other bad laws intended to enrich the elite at the expense of most Americans, international trade, immigrants - and even created the massive walkout of the World Trade Conference in Cancun. I have not yet been able to confirm this, but it is reported a speech by Bill Clinton saved the next World Trade Conference from complete collapse. Do we want to advance mankind or get made again at the Americans and French?

Of course you knew all this before you took an opinion about immigration. You advocate enforcing laws that are even based upon principles once considered anti-American. Or did you not even know about that Cancun conference? Did you also know why immigrants only get screwed - even $10K to lawyers because the system is designed unfriendly.

The problem with those who so complain about illegal immigration - too often - they don't even know why a problem exists. They spend too much time listening to Rush Limbaugh propaganda - sound byte solutions. We have massive illegal immigration problem because we don't deal with the reasons for that problem. Then we have some foolish idea we can solve it by unilateral attacks on another nation or building big walls. Such solutions only exist in radical politics. Such solutions exist where mandatory prison sentences even for marijuana are going to solve the problem. Clearly judges are too soft ... or persons with that opinion never first learned facts. When did you learn about the WTO conference in Cancun? Just another reason why we have illegal immigration problems. $10K for lawyers to get forms filled out? When did you learn about that one?

Shocker - two damning facts with your post. First you don't even try to address why the problem exists. That alone suggests your have a personal agenda rather than a grasp of the problem. Like extremists - both left and right - you advocate draconian solutions as if such actions always solve problems. Clearly if we only enforce the laws, then problems will disappear? Even military generals are not that stupid.

Those who blindly demand blind law enforcement as a solution for anything never bothered to learn lessons of history. Why do we have an immigration problem? We have met the enemy and he is us. When that was obvious, others instead demanded a solution in draconian actions – and without even learning why the problem exists.

Right HM, that's why the Feds try to head off Cubans before they hit the beach. One foot on American soil and they are entitled to full rights of the Constitution. They don't have to be a citizen or legal.

That said, they still are accountable for breaking any laws, but they are entitled to due process afforded by the Constitution.

Damnit Radar, I'm an American...... so boil that whole diatribe down to a sound bite, if you want to reach me. :lol:

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their Creator, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.

That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Prudence indeed, will dictate, that Governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security.

- Thomas Jefferson (remember him?)

It does not state that only US citizens have such rights. At the time these words were written there was really no such thing as a US citizen. People here were subjects of the King of England. That's it.

Shocker's post reminds me of Animal Farm - some of us are more equal than others.

Careful, mari. Before you know it, you'll start believing in Natural Law and moral absolutes.

Ok, well first off, I don't have any personal agenda like tw suggested, other than of course looking out for the best interests of my family. I do not know any illegal immigrants, and I do not fear losing my job or anything else to an illegal immigrant. I do however, believe that the laws of our country should be respected and followed. And there is a real reason to worry about the immigration issue. Al-Qaeda operatives, just as easily as Mexican migants, can cross our borders and do harm to us. We know they want to. But the cost and complexity in making exeptions to the law is too high to not protect our borders.

Secondly, Mari, I in fact do recognize those words, they are very famous, and I do indeed agree with them. I do feel that every human life is entitled to those things, no matter where they are from, no matter their religion, no matter whether they have been born yet or not, and no matter their race. But that is exactly why we have the system in place to allow for them to come here and pursue their dreams - legally. What you must remember, though, is that those words do not come from the supreme law of the United States - the constitution, but from the Declaration of Independence, so yes obviously there were no U.S. citizens then. However, the words of our Constituion, as written in the preamble -

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

You see, the U.S. Constitution was written at a time when there were U.S. citizens, and it was written in the best interests of U.S. citizens. It may sound harsh coming like this, but that is what the U.S. government is here for. And it is the job of the Mexican government to look out for the best interests of their citizens, as it is the job of the Canadian government to look out for their citizens, and so on...for every country out there...their ultimate responsibility lies with their own citiznens.

I'm not trying to say that illegal immigrants don't have rights, because they do. They have those inalienable rights of all humans, and laws have been established to protect those rights. They are allowed due process, they are allowed to be treated humanely. But at the end of the day, when it is all said and done, they have broken the law. You cannot deny that. You may not agree with the law, and you can try and change the law, but the law has been broken, and they will be returned from whence they came.

It's not perfect by any means, but what, pray tell, is?

Ooo. Someone has been watching too much twenty-four hour news! Really, if Al-Qaeda wanted to cross the border to commit acts of terrorism, they'd do so just as they have done before: legally.

Okay -- let's round 'em up. Take every single one of the people that have broken the law and throw them in jail, make them face charges, or deport them. Let's hold all the employers, farms, and contractors accountable for not following through on proof of citizenship and minimum wage laws. Let's see how well this country's economy runs without illegals. Who knows? Maybe those jobs you're not willing to do -- the ones that pay close to nothing for back breaking work -- might suddenly become interesting to Americans. Let's see how much this country is truly willing to pay in taxes and inflation in order to force people to comply with strict immigration laws.

Did you forget to first learn what security people have demonstrated? Long before 11 Sept, we routinely identified and stopped domestic terrorism without Fatherland Security, without torture, without lies such as Orange alerts, and without hyping fear.

You would know that if you always first asked questions such as why. And then you would also know a new administration shut down, demoted, and quashed existing protection systems in a proclamation that only Saddam was a threat. One FBI agent asks why his bosses were not charged with criminal negligence because they quashed every attempt to stop 11 September. Of course you knew that because you want to protect your family. Unfortunately too many blindly believe in law obedience without first asking questions - and end up promoting death. You did not ask why which explains the classic Al Qaeda myth.

If first asking questions, they you understood who Al-Qaeda terrorists are. Domestics. Those you so fear don't need porous borders. You knew this once you ignored political agenda propaganda - ie Rush Limbaugh. Your political handlers forgot to mention that? You forgot to ask of them embarrassing questions? Only if you have a classic personal agenda.

You were asked to address the problem. Your entire response was nonsense about strict law enforcement and myths about terrorists. Classic blind response without first learning underlying reasons. Without those underlying reasons, your answer lacks credibility - is classic of a personal agenda. Worse, your answer implied you don't want to know why. Devoid of what is required to be a patriotic American.

Shocker - this is not a personal attack? It is an appeal for you to change from anti-American (blindly answering as ordered by a poltical party - Democrat, Republican, or Communist) to being patriotic American (someone who first askes embarrassing questions). The question was why. Why do we have an immigration problem? Avoid that question by using classic personal agenda reasoning - as an anti-Ameican would do to blindly follow a party line. This time, address why a problem exists without Rush Limbaugh proclamations. Don't foolishly play the Al Qaeda card. Posting myths is akin to insulting. Long before drawing any conclusion, first ask why - as a patriotic American does. Why do we have an immigration problem - and therefore put the future of your family also at greater risk?

What? People shouldn't have to answer for breaking the law unless someone has a hidden agenda? Nonsense. The law is on the books and it doesn't matter why, when someone is caught breaking it. Guilty?....end of story.

Now if you don't like the law....want it changed or repealed, only then does the "why" enter into it. Why was it enacted? Why can't it be repealed? Then you can get into all the hidden agendas and conspiracy theories you want.

But while it's in effect it should be enforced. :cop:

I think the problem is that it hasn't been enforced for a reason that is quite clear -- we need cheap labor. The reasons stated for needed enforcement (i.e. - security) are essentially used to push politics.

This really is a mess.

It's more like selective enforcement against those that are of no value to the people with political clout.
That's why I'd like to see it enforced across the board. :cool:

Well tw...looks like you figured me out. I'm really an unpatriotic operative of Rush Limbaugh, here to try and sway your minds into actually following the laws of your government and to build support into protecting our borders, our jobs, our history, our language, our culture, and, um... well what else am I forgetting that I'm sure you think I'm trying to do?

No the truth is, you don't even know me or my motivations, and for you to just assume that I don't care about my country or am not patriotic is just ludicrous. As a matter of fact, I actually do care greatly about this country, and that is one of the reasons I want our borders protected. You see, the Al Qaeda threat, whether real and imminent or not is still there, and you can't say for certain how they plan on coming here or how they plan on attacking us. I'm not trying to sound like Rush Limbaugh either, cause I actually am at work while he is on the radio-I've never heard his talking points, so to even bring him up in this doesn't make sense.

Bruce is also right in saying that if you don't like the law then change it. This is after all, supposed to be a democtratic country. And he is right in saying that as long as it is in effect it should be enforced, across the board. It seems to me that my motivations in wanting the immigration laws enforced has come under some scrutiny by some on this forum. I however, would like to ask a question - yes tw, a question! Why is it you are so adamant about not enforcing our existing immigration laws, protecting our borders, and promoting the general disrespect for our laws and the system? Don't get me wrong, I agree there IS a problem and it needs to be fixed. There IS a need for immigration and cheap labor. There IS a need to protect our borders. The government DOES have a duty to protect its citizens. I do love my country and I also respect the laws in place. In a democracy like ours, if there is a problem with a law, it will eventually get worked out, so while you may not support enforcement of immigration laws, they are the law and should be enforced as long as they are the law. So if you want to make it into me spewing political rhetoric, fine, you can do that. But when you boil it down, what you have is people breaking the law. Forget the circumstances for a moment and ask yourself, when is it in the public's best interest to have a massive amount of people break the law? Under what circumstances is it ok to break the law? During the civil rights movement in the 60's, black leaders decided that it is not in their interest to break the law to make a point, but to use the legal system already in place to make a change, and it worked. Why now will not immigrants do the same thing?

Only you have suggested something about you don't care for your country. I never even implied it. But if you did not read every sentence as if they were poison snakes, then you did not understand what I posted - and therefore had an emotional response. Read the defintion of 'American patriot'. Don't assume things not posted.

I asked for supporting facts bluntly. I even defined 'American patriot' which somehow you confused with some irrevelant interpretation about 'love of country' (There is no relationship between American patriot and 'love of country'). Read the previous post to learn how 'American patriot' was defined.

Meanwhile, show me one reason why Al Qaeda is a threat to you and your family - this time with facts that Rush Limbaugh is not incapable of [is there any relationship between you and Rush Limbaugh in that last sentence? If so, then that relationship is only from your own personal biases. If I thought you were as much as liar as Rush Limbaugh, then I would say so bluntly. Read only what is posted - nothing more.] .

Show me why illegal immigration is a threat to anyone. Illegal immigration channels are a very bad way for terrorist to enter the US; once we eliminate myths preached by Rush Limbaugh. Pure logic. But you somehow think illegal immigration can be stopped with law enforcement - even though history repeatedly says otherwise. So show me. Show me why history is wrong. So me how blind enforcement of laws will solve problems created by bad laws. And show me where this has anything to do with Al Qaeda - without including myths from Rush Limbaugh.

Currently your claims of Al Qaeda threats are supported only by myths. Myths often promoted by a liar Rush Limbaugh. Show me - with facts and numbers - why illegal immigration provides Al Qaeda with anything useful. You made that claim and did not provide supporting facts. Show us. Show us why this Rush Limbaugh claim is based in anything other than Rush Limbaugh propaganda.

Obviously I don't care for Oprah Winfrey nonsense about "How did you feel". Posting such tells me one has an emotion. Waste of good bandwidth. I asked for facts. I ask bluntly. And I measure the responder by whether he can reply with facts and numbers - or take personal insult like Rush Limbaugh would. Show me facts why Al Qaeda and illegal immigration are a threat to your family. To not provide such supporting information is Rush Limbaugh logic. And again - not an insult - just a fact from reality. Your made the statement. Back it up with facts.

What I did observe is that you did not read my previous post with care, then made assumptions, and never answered a single question. Maybe this time you could answer the questions - show us why you know what you posted.

Meanwhile, I only again reply with what was posted previously - because it answered Bruce's (and your) question completely (and again, what in that post did you not understand?). Enforcing current immigration laws is not possible - just like Prohibition. Only those who see solutions in military type terms would believe otherwise. The laws are currently being enforced as well as they ever could be. The problem is not law enforcement. When laws don't work, then the laws and their purpose - are flawed. Show me where wall on borders solved problems. Even the Great Wall of China was a failure. As was the wall to protect S Vietnam from N Vietnam. Or the Berlin wall. In each case, the wall existed only because a problem was elsewhere: the 'powers that be' were in denial. We have massive illegal immigration because we have problems that we have created. So instead we will fix the problem with Berlin walls? Nonsense. Total nonsense. As so often proven by history - nonsense and classic of what happens when a political leadership is the real problem.

As a person whose father immigrated to this country in 1946, and achieved citizenship, and as a person who is the sponsor of a Croatian immigrant, I believe I can speak from experience in immigration matters, both past and present.

There are problems with immigration laws. No one denies that.
Filing immigration forms is expensive. $500 just to start the process.

But that doesn't make it OK for a person to break the laws in place in order to come to the US.

Oh, and those "low paying jobs that no one else will do" will become higher paying jobs when companies can't find illegals to do the work. It's the law of supply and demand, something your Economic soul can relate to, Tee.

One of the counter-arguements that the open-border and other pro-illegal types throw back at us is that the cost of food would sky-rocket if we restricted the numbers of illegals working in agriculture. The lines goes more or less, 'Do you want to pay $10 for a head of lettuce?'

Maybe we do.

This is a study on the costs to the Federal government of the illegals here. Among its findings:

"This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget. Most previous studies have focused on the state and local level and have examined only costs or tax payments, but not both. Based on Census Bureau data, this study finds that, when all taxes paid (direct and indirect) and all costs are considered, illegal households created a net fiscal deficit at the federal level of more than $10 billion in 2002. We also estimate that, if there was an amnesty for illegal aliens, the net fiscal deficit would grow to nearly $29 billion."

Let's see. $10 Billion plus another $20 Billion or so of capital they export back to their homelands, now we're starting to talk real money.

So El Presidente, who is RABID about other nations even COMMENTING on the way his country is being run, has a problem with how another soveriegn nation is dealing with criminals within it's borders? STFU.

Why don't ALL states adopt that simple law? No citizenship or working VISA = no benefits, no jobs. (actually, I thought that was already a law. whenever I started a new job I always had to fill out a form to prove I'm an American citizen or a person legally allowed to work in the US.)

If American Citizens want to revamp the current laws, that's great! There is a process in place to do that, built in, given to all American Citizens.

If you aren't an American Citizen, you have precisely shit all to say about the way Americans handle internal business.

(Just like Americans should have shit all to say about what happens within Iran's borders, or Iraq's borders. We're not citizens of Iran, or Iraq. It's not up to us to make changes in a soverign nation other than our own.)

Personally, I have to say for some laws I do break them if I feel/know that they are unconstitutional, harmful for the nation &/or corrupt. It is up to the individual.
However, I do so fully knowing that I can and many pay for said defiance, in fact doing so may help end said tyranny.

If Mr. Fox is so pissed-off about how we treat illegals on our Southern border we should make a deal with him.
We will enforce our Southern border and treat the illegals there exactly like he does his.
He is an honorable man. :eyebrow:

I posted once before about a Smithsonian Magazine story of a Mexican that made millions in NY and went home (no, not to stay, he has a palatial estate in NJ) to build 5 factories, each employing 500 people. One factory got built and couldn't attract enough employees to operate it, so, of course, the rest were cancelled. :(

I posted that exact fact in a much longer post on another thread. I grew-up in the citrus industry and my family is still in it... we will, in fact, just pay a decent wage for the labor without illegals and Americans will happily pick fruit with that decent wage. True Fact.

FYI. Some of my posts from another board... been thinking about this today and my experiences with this growing-up.
Americans do terrible jobs, I have had some. Many of the jobs I did at a distillery were NASTY (yeast and sugar bags were as much as lbs and had to be taken up 5 flights of steps up to 40 times a day the mash clean-up, maggots and rotten stuff... we have our own waste-water treatment plant), an organic fertilizer plant (I bet you can figure that out), large waste water treatment plants are union run and you don't wanna' know what they have to do when a pump or pipe breaks, small family pig farms, organic farming that takes some education like grafting (those workers do all the work, including the nasty stuff), LPNs do some of the most disgusting things you don't wanna' think about and the list goes on and on and on...
It is just one of the stupidest things I have ever heard uttered by educated people "Illegals do jobs Americans won't do" & to have media people keep saying it just makes the lie worse. Fruit picking is not that bad, cleaning rooms and toilets is not that bad, I cleaned bathrooms as a bar and restaurant worker... not my favorite job, but not the worst I have done by a long-shot and small business owners from restaurants to B&Bs do it every day.
Again... just a STUPID thing to say. Before the days of lots of illegals and after we, in the ag biz, will pay a decent wage that Americans will be happy to do the work for.
Wanna' hear a dirty lil' secret?
They make a crap-load of money picking citrus now... yup, and they DO NOT want Anglos to know about and we don't say crap because ... we we like them plus I don't know of a harder working group. Dude Mexicans can WORK! Give RESPEK!
Secret is that citrus is paid by the amount picked and quality of fruit (by the amount of sugar in the fruit), so in three months a good picker can make as much as someone who makes $8-10 does in a year. No shit.
So, at least in my, not so limited view, this issue is far more complicated than it appears.
They live like bums because the pickers are here for one reason, the same reason college students risk their lives in the Alaskan fishing industry, sorta'.
They come, bust their ass (I mean working so hard as to be doing permanent damage to their bodies, I have seen it, WORKING and you cannot stop them from doing it) making every dime they can for a year to ten, but usually just a few. Sending every dime they don't need to live on home, because it is at risk here from thieves (also, I don't know how much the person who lets them use the SS # takes off the top other places... I did not let them take too much... the guy we worked with was married into our family). When they move home they use it to buy a home and set up a business... their dream, and take care of their families, including parents, grandparents, etc.
Am I saying that this is honorable, in intent, no. I do not think it is.
This money is not being taxed, the jobs are being stolen from Americans... and they are not taking all of that amazing energy fixing their own nation.
I like to imagine what that kind of commitment and work ethic on a national scale would do in just a few years lased in on eradicating corruption and modernizing Mexico... it boggles the mind.

This is just from the Mexican, Central and South American perspective
and from my narrow view... basically I am all for immigration, it is
what this nation was built on, LEGAL immigration.

This shit didn't happen overnight.
Handy that a government with no moral standing has it as a diversionary tactic though.

of course because it must not be important at all to protect our borders and citizens...crazy diversionaries

Nice try, but for decades the authorities have known of the problem, but only addressed it in a token manner. There are now many thousands of Americans whose parents arrived 'illegally', whole sectors of the community who didn't bother to pick up a green card on the way in, and whole industries that rely on cheap labour to supply what their legitimate customers want at a price their customers are willing to pay.

The whole issue focuses on one easily-identifiable group. Because I am white and speak good English, I could most likely fly in, fail to leave, buy an identity and stay indeffinitely. This shameless playing of the race card against Hispanics encourages the perpetually self-righteous to tar all Hispanics with the same brush.
How long before we see them rounded up in dawn raids and shipped out without any further trial? How long before a Hispanic family born in America "accidentally' gets shipped off to a country they've never been to and has to spend a lot of time and money establishing that they have every right to be in America.

Hitler had the Jews as his rallying point for the disaffected. Bush has the illegals. Stop the rot now. The illegals have always been an issue, but there's far worse that needs to be addressed first. Like having an incompetent and dishonest President.

Are you sure you don't speak English well?

He said "good", not "proper".

LOL I'm just being difficult. I don't think that the language someone speaks or even how well they speak it matters so much as if they have broken our laws in order to be here. This is a free country, so if you have come here legally, I don't care where it is from and you can speak whatever language you want to. If you aren't here legally, then you aren't in much of a position to say or do anything in any language, in my opinion at least.

Illegals spit on our souls. :haha: