kids using "bad words"
 

Randon thought. One reason you don't want to teach your kids "bad words" is because they might repeat them in school, and get in trouble. But, isn't this like the rationale that dictates that (adults) smoking pot is "wrong" simply because it's illegal? It doesn't address the central issue: what is the original problem with the behavior? Or, say you don't want your kids to embarass you by saying "bad words" in front of other kid's parents. Same thing. It doesn't address the issue of what is wrong with them uttering certain syllables, other than as a superficial aspect of society, almost a superstition attached to making certain sounds with your mouth.

The only reason I can come up with for not cursing applies to adults as well as children, IE cursing inhibits your ability to express yourself with more meaningful words which represent concepts you had to map out in your head, instead of resorting to catch-phrases. However, I wonder whether many parents are worried that other parents will regard their toddler as eloquent or judge them on their oratory skills.

I'm just thinking about this because I have a baby on the way, and my brother was joking around about how much I curse, and that the baby can hear already hear me. And I was thinking, since we plan to home school our children, who cares if they curse? They won't be getting into any arbitrary "trouble" for using "bad words" - if I can't explain what is wrong with doing it. I don't plan to teach my children anything illogical or useless.

I'm sure their are plenty of holes in this, I just didn't see them when the thought popped into my head. What exactly is the problem with curse words, other than what I pointed out, and shouldn't it apply to adults and children equally?

I have been told by quite a few parents, that once the beast is extruded, it's amazing how quickly words like "poopy" and "fudge" become part of your regular vocabulary.

Don't "bad words" gain power by the importance we attach to them?

The idea of "bad words" is idiotic, and should be abolished. Of course, being a trailblazer in this respect could cause some annoying and embarrassing public interactions, so it's a tradeoff. At some point you'll have to explain to the kid that while there's nothing wrong with it, there are a lot of folks out there who disagree for some reason, and cursing in front of them could cause a hassle.

In general, I hope somebody does this, but I'd probably advise any individual not to.

I see this as falling under the "chose your battles" umbrella. If you have a rule, you need to enforce it - there needs to be consequences for breaking the rule. Punishing my kids for saying a certain word never sat right with me, so I've never done it. "I hate you" or some such is far more concerning to me than "Oh no, mom, you dropped your fucking phone!" - my son, age 2.5

I think it's prudent to teach the concept of "a time and place for everything" as soon as your kid can grasp it (earlier than you might think) which will be reinforced by other's reactions to Jr's new vocabulary.

I think you hit on the heart of the matter, Happy Monkey, which is that we are living in a society with certain traditions we may not agree with, but sometimes it behooves us to not rock the boat too much. This is the tightrope walk of the thinking man. Of course, and I'm not saying that this is the case here, but sometimes the boat needs smashing into oblivion. One man almost has to lay his life down, every once in a while, to set things right.

I've got little kids, and I wouldn't want mine playing with yours, if yours were swearing like a stevedore. Do you want to ostracise your kids?

Sure, I see your point about how silly it is that some words are "bad." How arbitrary it is. But you and I don't make the rules. Society does. You can fit in, or deal with the consequences. In this case, one of the consequences would be me not letting my kids play with yours. It's up to you to decide if that bothers you.

Well, I hope everyone would be more concerned with that! Of course, the concept of "hate" is a bit misunderstood with alot of people, who seem to believe that it is okay to hate certain people.

Agreed, agreed again, 100% - I want my kids to be able to think, not just obey.

Sounds about right to me. Same with burping and farting :D

@glatt: I didn't say I plan to teach them to swear as much as possible!

This is an issue where I am dwelling more in the region of understanding the underpinnings, at this point, and not so much in the strike out and take action phase. I spend alot of time in the thinking phase of things.

I do think, though, that the possibility exists that simply removing the power from "bad words" might in fact cause my children to swear even less than a child who is rebelling against authority by doing the opposite of what they are told. Or, at worse, they might curse about the same amount. Maybe a little more, who knows?

The thing is, kids are gonna do it anyway, aren't they? I mean, I was smart enough not to get in trouble for using bad words, because I wasn't stupid about doing it in front of the wrong people. As long as my kids understand that, you (as another parent) will never know the difference. And when our children are alone together, they will act just like we acted.

oooh yes. I remember being in kindergarten, on the swings at recess... and just saying over and over again "fuck, fuck, fuck"

Kids do it BECAUSE they're told its "bad"...and often theyll just go crazy with it as soon as they get a chance.

I don't want to get suckered into the idea that I have to ingrain my children with all the illogical quirks of society in order to keep them from being freaks. My wife and I are big into doing things because they are right, not because you're supposed to.

My point was more about intent than hate actually. A person who repeatedly says "monkeys!" with the intention of being disruptive is more of a problem than a person who says "shit!" when they spill their tea - which is the same (intent) as saying "crap" or "poop", which generally isn't considered a problem at all.

It is a balancing act, yes. You don't want to make these words forbidden fruit with the power that goes along with that. I also think you shouldn't give your kids the idea that swearing is just fine. Society frowns on swearing. You don't see the worst words on broadcast TV, although you do see swearing more than when I was a kid. I don't want my kids swearing, so I don't want them hanging around other kids who I can be sure are swearing when my kids are with them.

If my kids start talking about poopheads and stuff like that, I tell them that if they are going to talk that way, they have to go in the bathroom. That's where poop goes, so that's where that language goes too. I make it clear that it's not acceptable, but hopefully it doesn't give those words power.

@jinx: So you're saying you would discipline your kids more on the intent or usage of words more than for the words themselves? This sounds like more of a high-level concept with actual relevance in the real world, as it is built in that they have to understand the context of the situation. I think part of this is just being willing to spend the time with your kids to help them understand this stuff, rather than plop them in front of the TV. Speaking of which, the characters on some kids shows say some horrific stuff - without using "bad words".

I agree with Glatt, it's a balancing act (all of parenting, really). In my case, the only thing I ever did about it was to give the child my sad and disappointed face and to remind them that we try hard to avoid that kind of language in our house.

I think it's a mistake to ignore it completely. But I'll be interested to hear how it works out for Flint if we're both still here years from now.

Hmmmmmm...I don't think I'd "ignore it completely" either, as I am the designated person to guide them towards what they need to know in order to make their initial way through life. They would need to know, from me, at a minimum, that these words are treated differently by some people.

Eh. I wouldn't want to teach any child to swear. I wouldn't mind telling them what the meaning of the words are but swearing isn't something to be encouraged. Swearwords has its origin in insult and for someone to indiscriminantly use it just doesn't sound at all respectful. I mean, I would want them to understand that we should carry ourselves with grace and dignity. Words have the power to reflect the kind of person we are and it should be a lesson in knowing what kind of language we want to use in order to convey the image of ourselves.

I can't agree with actively teaching kids it's okay to swear. Bad words are bad words because they are meant to be disrespectful to others.

Right. Luckily, nobody in this thread has suggested anything anywhere close to that.

I can tell you Flint, that that works for some things and not for others. We have some discussions with our kids that we term "family only" - not to be discussed with others. This seems to work ok.

I don't think it will work as well for your kid's language. The deal with using such words and things like table manners etc. is that they become habits. Habits will come out no matter where they are.

Good point, dar512. Hopefully they will be on the ball enough to understand the context of the situation they are in. My experience with children is that if you treat them like adults they will rise to that level, if you treat them like children they will stagnate there out of pure laziness, knowing that you don't expect them to display any more aptitude than that.

"Children" is a pretty big umbrella. Covers a lot.

It's cool that you are thinking about this now, because the language that you use in front of the kid will be the language he/she learns. But it will be quite a while before the child is old enough for you to reason with him/her.

That's because you think that it should be encouraged since you don't want the kids to care what others think and limit themselves in self-expression. But I think that they should be aware of what others are thinking so they present themselves in the best way that they can be. Of course I have views about what that 'best way that they can be' is and to learn to swear without a care for words is not just a bad habit but, I think, disrespectful to others.

Yes, exactly. As you mentioned, you can be quite offensive without ever swearing, even in cartoons. That's a separate issue.

This is important, and pretty much the only guidance we gave our kids wrt bad words. They don't get in trouble for using bad words at home, but their grandmothers are more sensitive etc. They don't get in trouble for using bad words at school, but some of the other kids might not like to hear them etc.

LJ and I both use fairly colorful language. My kids very rarely say any bad words. I think that's in large part due to the fact that there is no attention heaped on their saying them. They are not made to feel bad for it, nor is it something special reserved for adults. They're just words and they don't often have much use for them. As a parent, I feel like I've avoided a lot of power struggles by making it a non-issue.

I think kids are just as able as adults to understand "time and place". You don't fart in a meeting with clients, you don't swear in church, you don't eat with your hands and belch at Le Bec Fin. But you might do any one of these things at home without creating an unbreakable habit that makes you a social misfit. Kids get that.

I don't make swear words an issue. Calling someone a name wouldn't be acceptable. Saying 'oh shit' when you drop something and it breaks is understandable.

Wrong. I never said that. Please don't try to put words in my mouth, okay? I find that extremely rude and insulting (if you care what others think).

I think Flint has the right idea here. Kids WILL rise to the level you hold them to. No matter what someone's age is, I treat them like I would anyone else unless they prove to me that they dont deserve equal treatment. Now, if the person in question is like, three months old thats a little different, I wouldnt sit down and try to have an intelligent conversation with someone who couldnt talk, but you know what I mean, right?

Okay then, my mistake.

When UT was small, I told him there was no such thing as a bad word, but that there were words that some people didn't like to hear so that he should be aware of this and be careful where he used some words. Problem solved.

When he got several years older, he brought kids home and swore just to prove to them that he could swear at home and his mother wouldn't object.

I think the late Jochser was pretty certain proof of that postulate.

No problem, sorry I snapped at you.

I've got a couple of thoughts here. It's not a matter of being aware of the context. I assume your kids will be smart enough to know when to cool it. But there are lots of times when you don't have time to think about the context and something is going to come out. If your kid hits his funny bone on the edge of a desk in first grade, he's not going to think, "Ooo, I'm in class now. No swear words here." He's going to say whatever he normally says in that situation.

I could be wrong, though. So I really am interested to see if you stick to this and how it goes once your kids start merging with society.

I do fully agree about treating one's kids with respect and high expectations. Actually, I think it applies to everyone you meet.

Well, my kids will be home-schooled, but I understand your point. It was covered ^^^up there somewhere^^^ that using a curse word as an exclamation is different than using it intentionally to be disruptive.

Now, the next part is a fine line for sure, but "merging with society" has never been one of my goals, as society is totally fucked-up, isn't it? My goal would be more like to be a good person, live by the golden rule certainly, and respect your fellow man and his beliefs, but to never ever ever compromise your ideals and cave in to any kind of rotten institution just because that's the way things are accepted as being done. I know that raising children is a responsibility where I have to teach them what they need to know in order to be happy and successful, and I myself remember being angry, at times, at my Mother for raising me around non-traditional ideas, but eventually, I believe that the power of the individual who believes in his heart that he/she is doing the right thing for the right reasons is a higher authority than any entrenched dogma society will try to sucker you into going along with.

I believe that people use swear words for one of two reasons:

Shock value

or

To reinforce a weak position


I've taught my children that using 'bad words' shows them to be a less than classy person and that if they feel it necessary to use curses to get their point across, they didn't have much of a point to begin with. The great debaters and most influental people in history had no need to use vulgar language to be effective. I've taught them that when one pepper's ones language with swear words and profanity, the people hearing them tend to filter out everything but the shocking words, so that what they hear is...blah, blah, blah shit, blah blah fu*king blah, blah g'damn blah blah blah.

On the other hand, I don't punish them for using bad words, I mostly just ignore it. I think everyone in our family uses them in frustration now and then, but I feel that making a big deal of it tends to give it the draw of the 'forbidden'.

One line that no one in my family is allowed to cross is that we do not tolerate verbal abuse of another human. Obviously, verbal abuse encompasses much more than just swearing, it is blame, shame, humiliation and control. I'm teaching my kids that they 'own' the words that come out of their mouth and how to communicate effectively.

Hopefully, this will help them grow up to be wise, compassionate, and loving individuals.

Stormie

That's a nice post, but I do believe that most things people do in life are done for exponentially more than 2 black-and-white reasons.

That aside (and it is a substantial aside, in my mind) I do recognize appreciate the spirit of the rest of what you posted.

Okay: here's this
http://youtube.com/watch?v=DN3UWp_UN...%20bad%20words

this is a grate point.

Flint, one of the things I've discovered as a parent is that people are incredibly keen on pushing their values on other people. Don't let them do this to you. If you curse, and you don't think there's anything wrong with cursing, then you're violating your own moral principles by punishing your children for cursing. You'd be a hypocrite. That's an even worse thing to teach your children -- that values are to be followed inconsistently.

In my opinion, the actual value that's being practiced by most people in society is that it's okay to curse in your home or with friends, but it's not okay to curse at work or at school.

That's what I intend to teach my daughter. She's 2 and 1/2 now, and she's been speaking since she was 1. She doesn't curse, despite the fact that we curse around her all the time. The key is to not give any reaction to it. People are very simple -- if it gives them pleasure, they will do it as often as possible. If the kids get no reaction to it, then there's no reason for them to do it.