Suffer the little children...
 

I posted down in the relationship's forum about getting involved with a man I knew I would have serious issues with.

Well. the first has already raised its ugly head. He was raised a Pentecostal Christian and he believes unbaptized children go to hell - even itty bitty ones who are a day or two old. He says these children go to hell to punish theiir parents with their suffering.

HUH!?

How can anyone who subscribes to this belief be a genuine, kind person in the here and now?????

Thoughts, please?

If my theory is correct, the more uncomfortable you are, the better a relationship you will have, so ... ;)

On a more serious note:

If that kind of belief is a deal breaker for you, then follow your own insticts and ethics regarding relationships.

Ask him what he thinks about Catholic Limbo, although I understand that the last Pope shut down Limbo shortly before he died.

(If he holds that closely to his Pentecostal beliefs, incidentally, you ain't gonna get none without convertin' and marryin'.)

Your best option is in between "In the Flesh" and "Waiting for the Worms". ;)










Hint....Pink Floyd's The Wall.

Dammit Bruce, now I have to go listen to some Floyd.

CAUSE IF THEY CATCH YOU IN THE BACKSEAT TRYIN'TA PICK HER LOCKS
THEYRE GONNA SEND YOU BACK TO MOTHER IN A CARDBOARD BOX!

CAUSE IF THEY CATCH YOU IN THE BACKSEAT TRYIN'TA PICK HER LOCKS
THEYRE GONNA SEND YOU BACK TO MOTHER IN A CARDBOARD BOX!

You beter RUN !!!

The singer for the fascist trio on Is There Anybody Out There - The Wall Live 80-81 is so cool.

Are there any... paranoids in the audience tonight? Is there anyone that worries about things?
...Pathetic.
This is for all the WEAK people in the audience! Is there anyone here who's weak?
This is for you, it's called Run Like Hell.

Mari. hes a dick. dead babies all go to the same place we do. the ground.

Most religions make their followers feel chosen in some way. The more who goto hell, no matter how stupid the reason, the more the follower feels special / chosen / blessed.

I have no patience whatsoever with creeds that fill people up with such dangerous and damaging nonsense. Why dangerous and damaging? Because it causes distress to so many people when they most need comfort.

My Granddad went to the grave convinced he was going to hell. Not some Mormen idea of it being just like heaven but without the presence of God....no. Flesh burning, bone melting, demon infested, humiliating and devastating Hell.

Bastards.

Hell? Shooooooot, girl. I already been there! They don't send babies to hell. Lord, lord. I agree with Pink Floyd and zippyt: You better RUN.

Yikes...the Pentacostal nonsense aside, let's not corrupt the meaning of the Biblical quote.

In full, it would read:
In this case "suffer" means "allow"...it doesn't have anything to do with "suffering" in the modern sense.

You'd have to reach out to OT:
...or maybe go non-Biblical to...

...or...

...which probably found its way to...

We have a winner. :D

Come ONNNN, Bruce, that was too easy. I didn't even need the hint! I don't think you can find a bigger Floyd fan that wasnt alive when floyd was actually around.

But you're not normal. :lol:

'Not normal' as in 'not common place' or 'not run of the mill' but you probably already knew that Ibram.

and Bruce expected you to know that.



I'm just being protective I guess. I dunno why :smack:

You already know the answer is my thought.

Awwww, thanks skysidhe, its great for us poor younguns to have someone to watch over us!

Heh, I'm not normal by any definition. I quoted that whole bit from ITAOT-TWL from memory. That's pretty sad, no?

TEACHA! Leave those kids alone! All in all, you're just another brick in the wall.

Man, I love Pink Floyd! And I hate organized religion. It wraps around decent people's heads early enough and it just twists them around the axle, and makes them into one more brick to be thrown through the window.

And, yeah, I know about the different meanings of the word "suffer."

I've tried arguing the Bible many times before with fundamentalist's of whatever stripe - JW's, Mormons, born agains, etc., etc. There always comes a point where they get this beleaguered expression on their face which means sanity has just flown out the window and brainwashing is now in effect. Too bad. I can't blame them for how they were raised. But I WASN'T raised that way. Whatcha gonna do?

Why argue it? Except for the mental exercise, I mean. To each his own, live and let live, and all that jazz.

You're not going to convince anyone that their dearest beliefs are wrong, nor are you going to open a closed mind. So why bother?

My mother is a devout Seventh Day Adventist, I gave up listening or attempting logical debate years ago.

I always just say....."ok", then go on about my merry way :devil:

Stormie

Lots of family from that side of the loony fence... you gotta' go.
Their opinions on a woman's "place" is just as bad.

The best I ever came up with was after a 45 minet tirade from a VERRRRRRRRRY country VERRRRRY Penacostal preacher co- worker was to look at him and say " Well , what are you going to do when you die , show up at the Pearly gates and say
" GOD , I AM HERE !!!!" ,
and a voice comes back saying
"MY NAME IS BUDDA !!"
Dude did NOT what to say , and we NEVER discussed religion AGAIN !!!

I say this as an ordained minister:

The world would be a better place if people worried more about their relationship with their version of a supreme deity than to complain about others'.

Personally, I can't believe in any supreme power that would punish an innocent being in order to spite its parents.

Your mileage may vary.

Why am I unsurprised?

Once, I might have thought as Marichiko does. But as I approach Mari's age, that "old enough to know better" age, I think I find myself getting closer to God. My experience of organized religion is open to quips, as I am a baptized and confirmed Episcopalian -- yeah, the same denomination that just elected its first female Presiding Bishop, to perhaps great excitement in the Anglican Community in other parts of the world.

The quip, in effect: "Well, my son, I don't believe in organized religion either; I'm Episcopalian."

The practice of a religion, even unto taking part in a quality religious retreat like Cursillo, has made a better man of me. There was a time when I heard, and knowing no better believed, antireligious propaganda of the sort repeated in Mari's para above, but that time is long passed, and I dismiss its promulgators as a pack of lying idiots or hidden-agenda types in search of hegemony with themselves as hegemon, and often both. No exceptions -- self-servingness is too often found, and too powerful an impulse.

Now there IS a problem with what I'd call "religious malpractice," an irrational and abusive approach to religion. I've seen a couple of examples of what this produces in the children scorched by it. It's a strange combination of rebellion and a powerful religious urge: they turn pagan and labor at practicing it. They seem motivated to punish their unduly Godstruck parents by rejecting their faith, and then they move heaven and earth to find another one, and preferably one as oppositely constituted as possible. One woman I know went through a druggie period, then several years of the Church of Satan (those guys' newsletters are enough to turn about anyone who isn't a sociopath right off) and is now busy with a bunch of neo-Egyptian pantheon types, who strike me as a major improvement over the CoS. They're colorful, but frankly I don't see the point of it all. However, I think I see the root cause.

I enjoy "The Wall" too. And ain't nobody chucking me through any window, Mari.

Faith and religion rarely have anything to do with each other these days.

Depends on who you look at. The situation in my experience frankly isn't that bad or that desperate, rkzen.

My statement had neither of those qualifiers/values on it.

rk:

If you're going to open your mouth around UG, be prepared to have him put words in it. fyi.

I didn't even get dinner or a show.:sniff:

Marichiko and Urbane Guerrilla,
I've seen first hand the damage and the strength that organized religion can bring. I think their strength rises simply from it's number of followers that find a kinship and healing amongst their own, that is, as long as they are all huddled together without opposition from opposing beliefs. Unfortunately Any organized group (the group just happens to be religion in this case) is bound to experience well meant misinterpretation over time and you can't overlook the fact that giving yourself the label "JW's, Mormons, born agains, etc" immediately divides you from BILLIONS of other souls that could potentialy provide the feedback,nurturing, and/or love that we ALL need along the way.

Rather than saying hi I'm a "JW, Mormon, born again, etc" , and immediately receive all the negative and positive impressions from those labels, wouldn't it all work out better if each one of us said:

Hi, I'm a Human and you are too. I have a belief structure on creation and death and so do you. Things in this world scare me and I know they scare you too. etc...

I work with a guy who always says to anyone that mentions religion, "If you believe there exists a power greater than yourself, that's enough".
If you say no, then he'll start preaching that there is, without being specific about a name. Interesting position. :idea:

If you believe there exists a power greater than yourself, that's enough.

That's a tough one, but I'll pick gravity.

It beats love, playful harmonies, and the Republican Party.

What is the difference between a power “greater than yourself” with a name like God verses a power “greater than yourself” with a name like “gravity, love, playful harmonies, and the Republican Party.”?

In my mind, God (by whatever name or description) IS a higher power due to primordial existence, being all knowing, being all seeing, having some part in my creation,etc… I would not consider gravity a force greater than me because it does not embody consciousness, I would consider love a synonym for God or playful harmonies. I would not consider any group (such as the Republican Party) a higher force due to the fact that they are simply a creation or extension of “me” that reflects specific ideas/concepts/thoughts within me.

Anyone have reflections on this ?

The difference is that the latter all provably exist.

Undertoad,

To make sure I understand your response. You're saying all of those things, except God, exist ?

He's seen a republican.

He's seen all of these exept God .

But he ain't seen gravity. ;)

True about gravity. In fact , a lot of things we call a higher power ,including God, are never actually seen. We just perceive the results of there existence acting on the world around us.

Bingo.:D

There is no gravity. The Earth sucks.

Reply to: Bingo

It all makes sense now.....

:idea: Ding

Reply to: Wolf

You're the official optimist of the forum ?

I often go to the Optometrist, yes.

Provably exist, BS_TM.

If God exists, He would be a higher power than any of the other powers I mentioned. But I'm just answering xoB's guy's question. Gravity is, without a doubt, a higher power than myself. A higher power than all of us. We cannot deny it, we cannot beat it, and it affects every single piece of matter in the universe.

UT,

lol :lol:

I'm so dense sometimes. I thought "provably" in your other reply was a typo for probably...


....and a higher power can be interpreted many ways. Such as.... Gravity is a higher power than me because it moves planets and I can't, but I'm a higher power than gravity because I can feel the depth of a poem and deduce that 2+2=4.....

Enlightened consciousness is more powerful than the most powerful force of nature, because nothing else will allow us to ponder the question of which is more powerful.

....and therefore if she's heavier than a duck , she's a Witch !


.....sorry I'm having a Monty Python moment.

I like your enlightenment observation...

But back to xoB's guy's question -- is the whole concept of "enlightened consciousness" a higher power than me, an individual?

Is the whole concept of "enlightened consciousness" a higher power than me, an individual?

Answering that is tricky. As I’ve seen in this thread these concepts utilize so many words that have many meanings for different people. To add my two cents I’ll define a couple words first:

Individual Me = this is the worldly consciousness that has been shaped by this physical existence. It knows: My name is Bluesky, I’m sad when treated badly, I hurt when I can’t have something I’ve been desiring. It does NOT know I am intrinsically connected to all other life/beings.

True Me (filtered/unfiltered) = a consciousness that shares all knowable knowledge with God and all humans that are or have ever been. This “True Me” is the internal part of the “Individual Me” that observes\witnesses all that physically happens. True Me looking thru the physical form(filtered) would have limits upon it that the True Me that see’s ALL unfiltered does not have.

Higher Power = I won’t attempt to say what power means here or to qualify if the “somethings” being compared, should be compared because they are from separate realms etc… I’ll just say “Higher” is the “something” that is Higher up the consciousness/awareness Ladder.

Now for my next trick I’ll answer the question with a few equations:

God = True Me(unfiltered)
True Me(unfiltered) = All other True Me’s(unfiltered)
True Me(unfiltered) > Enlightened Consciousness
Enlightened Consciousness = True Me(filtered) + Individual Me
True Me(filtered) > Individual Me
Enlightened Consciousness > Individual Me


Wow… I don’t think I’ve ever put all that on paper before. It’s usually just running around within my skull. Looking over it I can’t tell if I’m a genius or in serious need of therapy….

All I know is I could never date anyone who professed a belief in God, period. Unless they were really cute and did not mind having sex for pleasure instead of making babies.

It's amazing what you can put up with.

P62,

Why do you think that a Belief in God means a person is ugly and they don't have sex for pleasure ?

There are plenty of "cute" believers in God. But since this thread started with a description of a rather fundamentalist pentacostal, that's the type I was referring too. I'm very adamant in my atheism, and it is hard for me to have relationships with believers, cute or not. I could never have a relationship with any kind of "fundamentalist," Christian or non. And the wishy-washy "spiritualists" are a pain. My current girlfriend believes in God, but it's mostly a private thing with her.

As for the sex for pleasure, many fundementalists say that's a sin. As is Onanism.

I can understand your belief in characteristics of a God Believer with a Fundamentalist Pentecostal as the backdrop for the statement.

It amazes me that people still call themselves one "type" of religion or the other. I can't think of any religion (or non-religion) that hasn't been bashed with one type of negative stereotype or another. I do feel that the world is full of many people that believe those stereotypes too quickly. For example, using the beginning of this thread concerned with dead babies and your claim to the label "Atheism" . There are people in this world that would call you a baby killer only based on their own personal life experiences and the word Atheist. I’m sure there are many other characteristics that people apply to “atheist” but they don’t apply to you specifically. Is one of the tenets of atheism to treat people kindly? , And wouldn’t kindness include not assuming a person contains all the negative qualities of a given group they participate in? This is all just food for thought.

Irregardless… Ugliness is only an opinion that changes from person to person; it’s not possible to NOT have pleasure while having sex, and masturbation is probably performed by more fundamentalist’s than not.

Non-pleasurable sex
 

My brother has some weird, post-Catholic (my mother's special brand) issues with sex that make me think he does not enjoy it. One of his ex-girlfriends told me that, after many days of not having sex with her, she asked him why and he said "I don't want to taint you with my sin." Now talk about baggage!

And not only can atheists (I don't capitalize the a) be nice, I think they have an imperative to be so. No God, no excuses. No afterlife, no infinite temporal framework in which to make amends.

Your brother may be feeling the guilt and "sin" because he does enjoy it.

He obviously believes somewhere inside that he should not be having sex. If that is what he believes he would not be having Sex unless something stronger than his belief interceded. That something stronger could be pleasure.

My attitude to the whole 'god' thing is, there may be and there may not be, but i dont care either way. If you believe in god, thats great for you, dont force your beliefs on me or anyone else. If you dont, thats great, but don't force your non-belief on me or anyone else.

I'm against organized religion, because it gives those on top too much power. The Pope, or the Dalai Lama, or that televangalist dude i hate, could all say whatever they wanted, and their followers would listen. I think of myself as Buddhist, but its a very personal, very individual kinda buddhism (as in i'm alone in doing what i do, not as in it makes ME all antisocial or self-centered or anything). I don't believe in flying bodhisattvas on their clouds, and i dont believe in all the monsters and demons, but i do believe that Siddhartha Gautma had a damn good message. In that respect, really, to me, its more of a philosophy than a religion, because it's all grounded in fact and logic. What many forms of buddhism have become is little different than the way christians have departed a ways from the simple message of christ and added other things to the mix. I go from what the Buddha said, not what him and a buncha other people said.

Forced Atheism
 

Many folks think that teaching evolution in public schools is forcing atheism upon their kids. It's weird when you think about it, but history and science probably do more to make God inplausible than anything else.

The only "ist" I can see myself as is a materialist. And if your Gautmanian view of the world is based upon fact and logic, that's probably just as good as atheism.

And Bluesky. I concur, mostly. It's probably the desire rather than the actual pleasure, however. For me, every time after I splooge I ask myself "Why was I so horny only 10 minutes ago, and now all I want is a sandwich?"

...pleasure comes first, then desire. We only feel a desire for those things that bring us pleasure (even if it's a sadistic pleasure). What is Desire ? Desire is an urge to have something that you fear you will never get again, or at least not enough of again. So if you just had it, you know without a doubt that you can get it, at least untill enough time goes by that you start to fear you can't get it again and the desire rises. That's why anything you try "not" to want (sex,food,drugs) you get stronger and stronger desires for the more you tell yourself no...

I wonder if marichicko is taking all our great advice to heart.

:) I hope so..

And so? Can I not see the disapproval, the troubled heart, behind the line?

V, I do not put words in people's mouths. I recently went to work on Mari for putting words in mine. We came to a satisfactory understanding. I don't think you can accurately cite a single example of me putting words in mouths. But do have a little faith in my ability to read between the lines. Not everyone is entirely forthcoming; sometimes you have to tease things apart a bit, try a conclusion about an underlying motive.