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-   -   Tragedy Begs Question of a Merciful God (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=11209)

Elspode 07-10-2006 10:53 PM
Tragedy Begs Question of a Merciful God
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AP
BALLWIN, Mo. - Five youngsters, including four siblings, drowned during a church outing after one became caught in a river's undertow and the others jumped in to help, authorities said Monday. A sixth youth was rescued and hospitalized.

The six were part of a group of about 50 youngsters with the St. Louis Dream Center, an interdenominational church that was celebrating a volunteer appreciation day with a barbecue and swimming in Castlewood State Park southwest of St. Louis.

People at the scene said the youths were swept away as they played in the Meramec River on Sunday evening, said Tracy Panus, a spokeswoman for St. Louis County police. They ranged in age from 10 to 17, officials said.

Edris Moore, the mother of the four siblings, said Monday outside her St. Louis home that she was placing her faith in God. The mother of the fifth child declined to comment Monday and retained two attorneys.

Moore has four surviving children, two of whom were at the outing. She said that it "doesn't concern me" precisely what transpired and that the children "went on to be with the Lord."

Said church pastor Jeff Allensworth: "Let me say this is one of the most horrendous things a church family, any family, would have to go through. I just ask that as we sort through this and minister to the families, you all pray for us."

Authorities received the first call around 6:30 p.m. Sunday and worked through the night to find the victims.

Metro West Fire Department Chief Vincent Loyal said that when rescue workers arrived, two victims had already been pulled from the river, and that one later died. The second youth, a male, was hospitalized, Loyal said.

The body of the last victim was pulled from the river about 6 a.m. Monday.

Parts of the river are shallow enough to walk in, but St. Louis County Police Lt. Gary Barra said the bodies were found in water eight to 12 feet deep.

The victims were four boys, Ryan Mason, 14; Damon Johnson, 17; Bryant Barnes, 10; and Deandra Sherman, 16; and a 13-year-old girl, Dana Johnson, said Terry Ledbetter of the St. Louis County medical examiner's office. All the children except Deandra were Moore's.

Moore, who works at the Dream Center as a cook, said none of the children had ever taken swimming lessons.

Rescue workers were hampered by inconsistent reports about how many children were attending the event and how many were missing, Panus said.

"It was just depressing," Panus said. "It was horrible. You have a church group out there for a good reason, a good cause. No one is out there drinking or getting stoned, and a tragedy can happen just like that. It's kids and it's tragic."

According to its Web site, the Dream Center in north St. Louis is an interdenominational church that offers a variety of social services from a teen drop-in center to programs for the homeless.
Okay...so, a bunch of children on a church outing drown, five of the six apparently while trying to heroically save the first drowning youth. One mother puts her faith in almighty God, the other hires lawyers.

Sometimes I don't really understand religion, I guess.

Ibby 07-10-2006 10:58 PM
*wince* Man, I dont care if theyre christian, mormon, hindu or neo-nazi, a bunch of kids drowning is just plain bad news.

xoxoxoBruce 07-11-2006 05:31 AM
Spode, are you saying the other mother should hire a lawyer? :confused:

Tse Moana 07-11-2006 06:55 AM
It's always very sad when children die. There is just one thing that bothers me about this.

Quote:
Moore, who works at the Dream Center as a cook, said none of the children had ever taken swimming lessons.
So, four of the six in that boat, four of the five who died, could not swim. What idiot allowed children who cannot swim to go out and play in a river?

Pangloss62 07-11-2006 08:09 AM
Swept Away
 
Quote:
Moore has four surviving children, two of whom were at the outing. She said that it "doesn't concern me" precisely what transpired and that the children "went on to be with the Lord."
Ah, religion, comfort food for the mind. Hey, she had a family of 8 kids, so at least she has 4.

Quote:
As Moore huddled with her family and pastor in her home, friends of the five young victims wandered over to the St. Louis Dream Center, an urban ministry founded by wealthy televangelist Joyce Meyer.
I swear, people like Joyce Meyer make so much money off of duping people into her brand of religion. I wish Meyer, Dobson, Robertson, Wildman, Falwell, all those money-grubbing televangelists would go to the same river and get swept away.

xoxoxoBruce 07-11-2006 08:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tse Moana
So, four of the six in that boat, four of the five who died, could not swim. What idiot allowed children who cannot swim to go out and play in a river?
I don't think there was a boat involved. It sounds like they were just cooling off in the shallow water of the river and one got out into the current, too far. When one got swept away the others tried to help.

Newspaper quotes don't convey emotions. We also don't know what else she said that wasn't quoted.

I would assume this woman is weeping for her lost children and has turned to her faith for comfort. In the face of a tragedy of this magnitude, she's trying to cope and has rationalized they've gone to God. What else can she do? :(

Tse Moana 07-11-2006 09:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
I don't think there was a boat involved. It sounds like they were just cooling off in the shallow water of the river and one got out into the current, too far. When one got swept away the others tried to help.
You're right, there's no boat mentioned in the article. But then still, I would not let children who cannot swim play in a river, no matter how shallow the part the were in was. With a river you never know how it may react, it can have treacherous undercurrents that can sweep someone away before they realise it. As happened here.

Letting non-swimming kids play in a shallow, closed off pool or something under supervision) okay, but not in a river or sea.

Stormieweather 07-11-2006 10:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tse Moana
Letting non-swimming kids play in a shallow, closed off pool or something under supervision) okay, but not in a river or sea.

Where were their life jackets??! What idiot would take a bunch of children, never mind a bunch of children who had never had swimming lessons, anywhere with water and not make them wear life jackets? And why would a parent not check this out in advance (ie: what safety measures will you be using to keep my children safe)?

Stormie

Pangloss62 07-11-2006 10:59 AM
Life Jacket
 
Quote:
What idiot would take a bunch of children, never mind a bunch of children who had never had swimming lessons, anywhere with water and not make them wear life jackets?
Some well-meaning but undereducated and undertrained members of a St. Louis mission. Not too many evangelical missions in urban St. Louis are gonna have life jakckets, and not too many black kids from urban St. Louis are gonna get swimming lessons. Having said that, that bitch Joyce Meyers should have coughed up some of her fortune to give those kids more than religion.:mad:

As a spoilt white kid from the suburbs, it astounds me how little public amenities urban kids have. I was lucky to have summer camps with councilors, swimming lessons, and any number of organized activities to keep me running around in a safe and fun manner.

Buddug 07-11-2006 01:12 PM
Elspode's question pertaining to the concept of a merciful God when we are faced with tragedy and grief is a very difficult one . As usual , I do not have any answers , but the book ' The Problem of Pain' by C.S. Lewis is a classic on the subject . It is well worth reading .

Elspode 07-11-2006 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
Spode, are you saying the other mother should hire a lawyer? :confused:
Not at all...I am just continually astounded at what blind faith is all about, and also what blind greed is all about.

This is, of course, an unmitigated tragedy. Things like this make me wonder how people continue to view Jehovah as a loving, forgiving god instead of just realizing that The Universe works the way it works...good, bad or indifferent. It also makes me wonder about people who use tragedy to reap profit. I think the law is perfectly capable of determining whether or not negligence was involved, but instead, lawyers are going to threaten whoever has the deepeset pockets that was involved in any way...be that the church, the State Park, the people supervising the trip, the maker of the swimming trunks the kids were wearing...

I was just expressing dismay and provocation at the two different reactions to the same event, and hoping to stimulate a little discussion about what others think or feel about same.

Shawnee123 07-11-2006 04:01 PM
Wow. I think if something like this happened to me I would need something to hold on to. Though I am at constant question with myself about the existence of a higher being, if I had to go through something like that I would hope to have some kind of faith to hold on to. But I don't know that I would. I would probably be cursing the God I had just praised.

It's terribly sad.

Clodfobble 07-11-2006 04:31 PM
Quote:
The victims were four boys, Ryan Mason, 14; Damon Johnson, 17; Bryant Barnes, 10; and Deandra Sherman, 16; and a 13-year-old girl, Dana Johnson, said Terry Ledbetter of the St. Louis County medical examiner's office. All the children except Deandra were Moore's.
It's a horrible tragedy, and the teens who jumped in to save the first kid were brave and heroic. However, this is just irritating me more and more as I think about it:

Edris Moore lost four children. In age order they are: Damon Johnson, 17; Ryan Mason, 14; Dana Johnson, 13; and Bryant Barnes, 10. She also has four additional children, and I would bet any sum of money that none of them has the last name Mason, Barnes, or even Johnson (despite the fact that he makes repeat appearances between other children). I just... birth control. BIRTH CONTROL, dammit.

xoxoxoBruce 07-11-2006 06:08 PM
But if you don't have 8 kids and you suddenly lose 4, you won't have 4 left to take care of you in your old age.
Quote:
Things like this make me wonder how people continue to view Jehovah as a loving, forgiving god instead of just realizing that The Universe works the way it works...good, bad or indifferent
Not everyone that believes in God feels he takes a hand in day to day life. Some believe he just waiting to judge how you behaved, when it's over. Of course there's probably some people that believe any particular scenario you can come up with in between, too. :D
Quote:
She said that it "doesn't concern me" precisely what transpired and that the children "went on to be with the Lord."
That sounds to me like the reporter was grilling her on the details, they can be insensitive. She probably didn't want to discuss her feelings with a reporter, at the time.
My sister was killed in an automobile accident at 14, and the reporters twisted my Mother, pretty badly until Pop blew his top.

Elspode 07-11-2006 06:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
That sounds to me like the reporter was grilling her on the details, they can be insensitive. She probably didn't want to discuss her feelings with a reporter, at the time. My sister was killed in an automobile accident at 14, and the reporters twisted my Mother, pretty badly until Pop blew his top.
*That* is a definite possibility. And I'm sorry for what your family had to go through. People can really suck when they put their minds to it.

WabUfvot5 07-12-2006 01:14 AM
God was merciful in this. If he wasn't they would have died in a fire.

MaggieL 07-12-2006 05:08 AM
And in other news, Elsposde was cited by the grammar police for abuse of the idiom "begging the question". Now there's a tragedy for you . :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
Spode, are you saying the other mother should hire a lawyer? :confused:
Not only that, but following the "kite of death" thread's example, CPSC should drain the river...or at least completely enclose it with plexi shieds bearing prominent warning labels.

wolf 07-12-2006 10:20 AM
Because of familiarity with swimming pools, etc., people rarely respect the power of water. I can easily envision these non-swimming kids being in water no higher than their knees or waists, but in a river that depth can still have a fast current.

BigV 07-12-2006 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble
It's a horrible tragedy, and the teens who jumped in to save the first kid were brave and heroic. However, this is just irritating me more and more as I think about it:

Edris Moore lost four children. In age order they are: Damon Johnson, 17; Ryan Mason, 14; Dana Johnson, 13; and Bryant Barnes, 10. She also has four additional children, and I would bet any sum of money that none of them has the last name Mason, Barnes, or even Johnson (despite the fact that he makes repeat appearances between other children). I just... birth control. BIRTH CONTROL, dammit.
Choose to be irritated if you must, but realize the source of your irritation is your own assumption, your implication as to the parentage of these children. Not all my children have the same last name, nor do I share the same last name as all my six siblings. You wanna talk about my mama? My wife? I didn't think so. What, specifically, irritates you about this?

Pangloss62 07-12-2006 10:46 AM
The Baby-Daddies
 
Fobble was commenting on the propensity of urban black women to have many children with different men and never get married. These "baby-daddies" come and go, but generally do not spend a lot of time being real "daddies." This is a very real problem. I work with many black women and they are not afraid to discuss this issue. Most of them have very middle-class values, are married, and see themselves as completely different than the single moms with several different baby daddies. That said, they know first-hand of that sub-culture and bemoan its existence and growth. Just the other day, I overheard our black mailroom clerk yelling at her daughter on the phone: "You had a baby for a check! You had a baby for a check!" She was pissed because she, a single mom herself, now is a grandmother to a single mom, and who knows how many more grandkids she will have. I think 8 kids is a bit much for any mom, let alone a single black mom in St. Louis. Drive through East St. Louis and you will wonder how anybody can come out of there unscathed, either psychologically or economically. Do these women "have babies for a check" ? I'm sure many do. Some do not. I can look out my window right now and see six or seven single teen black moms with one kid in a stroller and another by her side; sometimes three or four kids. They are not waiting for the bus to take them to swimming lessons.

Clodfobble 07-12-2006 11:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigV
Choose to be irritated if you must, but realize the source of your irritation is your own assumption, your implication as to the parentage of these children. Not all my children have the same last name, nor do I share the same last name as all my six siblings. You wanna talk about my mama? My wife? I didn't think so. What, specifically, irritates you about this?
It's true, I'm assuming they are each fathered by a different man, except the two Johnsons, and that they are not just a complicated "blended family" of some sort. And that is perhaps unfair--after all, my two stepkids have the same mother and father and they don't even have the same last name as each other. My assumption that she is "having babies for a check" as Pangloss puts it is judgmental and unreasonable.

But I do think it is reasonable to suggest that a woman living in poverty in urban St. Louis and having her eighth child is irresponsible, to say the least, and has no excuse not to be using birth control.

...And maybe they're not even all her biological children, maybe she takes in all these kids from bad homes who would otherwise have no one to care for them. Maybe she's a veritable saint. I have no idea.

Buddug 07-12-2006 11:12 AM
Pangloss
This ' baby-daddy' scene can be seen all over the Caribbean too . As do many others , I believe ( know ?)that it is linked to the history of slavery . The concept of personal identity , language and family was shattered into tiny pieces and that traumatism lives on . I do not have the exact dates to hand , but Wilberforce and Schoelcher were only beginning to be listened to in the mid nineteenth century . This is very recent , as you know .

Please do not think I am being critical of America yet again . I am perfectly aware of the fact that the wealth and culture of Liverpool , Bristol , le Havre , Bordeaux , La Rochelle is based on the slave-trade .

wolf 07-12-2006 12:35 PM
You have a gross misunderstanding of American culture, and of Black American Culture. This has nothing to do with slavery. The Baby Daddy phenomenon is relatively recent, as the sexual mores of this country have changed significantly in the recent past (let's just say 50 years, for argument's sake, although this particular trending overlays both the notion of 'free love' and the feminist movement. As out of wedlock childbirth has become less stigmatizing, more children have this status, and remain with the birth mother, where in the past a young lady would have been quietly sent away until the time of her disgrace was over and the adoption was finalized.

Buddug 07-12-2006 12:53 PM
I am listening , Wolf .

Pangloss62 07-12-2006 02:02 PM
Crunkworld
 
Quote:
My assumption that she is "having babies for a check" as Pangloss puts it is judgmental and unreasonable.
I don't know if you assumed she was "having babies for a check;" I only know that many women regardless of race, certainly realize that they will get government assistance if they do; that's just the way it is. Let's say it's one of several factors that goes into the "choice" to have unprotected sex with men to which these young women are not married.

Now, before we divide into the "It's all about slavery" and "Johnson's Great Society created this problem" camps, we should consider how both may have contributed to what I see as the problem of too many unwed black mothers with several children fathered by different men (I used the italics for myself because some anthropologists argue that there is nothing intrinsically "bad" or "immoral" about such a subculture; it's just different).

When one considers not just slavery, but the decades of inequality that followed, it would be hard to argue that black American society does not still have some deeply imbedded cultural and psychological attributes related to that history that contribute to the contemporary situation under discussion.

It could also be argued that trying to help poor urban blacks to attain economic viability by giving them money might have the tendency to create a sense of entitlement and/or a slothful lifestyle. It's all very sad because this nation had many examples of viable, self-sufficient black communities with strong families. What happened? I don't know completely. The urban environment does not provide a good (legal) economic ladder, especially for young men. The dynamic between the young men and young women is pathological for many, and I see this dynamic every single day here in downtown Atlanta. It's scary because these kids are the future of this city. There were more cases of child exploitation (pimping) in Atlanta last year than ANY American city. Is the vibrant -if disturbing- hip-hop/crunk culture here a result of this behavior or a cause of it? All these young black dudes sell their own crunk music on the streets down here, hoping for fame and fortune, but it's the lifestyle of the latter that drives them, not some wish to become an upstanding citizen or dutiful father. There are plenty of the latter, but they're moving out to the burbs, and I don't blame them.

Buddug 07-12-2006 02:20 PM
I just want to tell you that I am reading what you have just said very carefully , Pangloss . I shall read it again and again and then reply .

Clodfobble 07-12-2006 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pangloss62
I don't know if you assumed she was "having babies for a check;" I only know that many women regardless of race, certainly realize that they will get government assistance if they do; that's just the way it is. Let's say it's one of several factors that goes into the "choice" to have unprotected sex with men to which these young women are not married.
I was assuming that, Pangloss, and in general I agree with you. I was just acknowledging that I don't actually know for sure that that is what this woman was doing.

Pangloss62 07-12-2006 02:36 PM
Understood.

Austin is probably one of the better places to be in Texas, by the way.

Clodfobble 07-12-2006 02:37 PM
No, it's the best! :)

Ibby 07-12-2006 04:33 PM
Austin isn't Texas. It's as Texan as Hong Kong is Chinese.

rkzenrage 07-12-2006 04:40 PM
I've never understood the idea that God is down here mucking around in our stuff.
We are here to deal or not deal with it all as best we can... God is with us, but we have free will in all things, great and small.
That is the deal.
The idea that God "lets" bad or "gives" good things, SantaGod, has always confused the hell out of me. It just makes no sense at all.

Buddug 07-12-2006 05:01 PM
You told us earlier that you were a Buddhist , rkzenrage .

rkzenrage 07-12-2006 05:56 PM
I am. I also have studied all religions for most of my life. Spent some time in seminary prep as a young man.
I am a follower of Christ, not a Christian. Consider him a Buddha, as many Buddhist do.

Buddug 07-12-2006 06:03 PM
Well , I am a follower of Christ too . In the dusty feet way .

Buddug 07-12-2006 06:04 PM
I cannot put my legs over my shoulders , so I am not a Buddhist .

Ibby 07-12-2006 06:08 PM
What, pray tell, does putting your legs over your shoulders have to do with philosophy?

rkzenrage 07-12-2006 06:09 PM
Yoga and my Path are separate. But, the breathing did help a great deal with my meditation. I started it because of my acting degree. Continued because of my pain management and the sex.

dar512 07-12-2006 07:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibram
What, pray tell, does putting your legs over your shoulders have to do with philosophy?
Nothing. It has everything to do with making a joke. Whooosh.

Ibby 07-12-2006 08:09 PM
But buddug has made more than one reference to it.

xoxoxoBruce 07-12-2006 09:56 PM
Probably because a lot of people that are not schooled in Buddhism, myself included, associate the Buddhist monk image portrayed by Hollywood and the media. :confused:

Elspode 07-14-2006 08:25 PM
Jehova Continues to Bump Off His Followers
 
Quote:
SALEM, Va. - Carbon monoxide leaked into a Roanoke College dormitory early Friday, sickening more than 100 teens and adults attending summer programs. One man was found dead.

People staying in the dorm contacted campus police, and one woman later described the scene inside as chaotic.

"One woman fell on the floor in the bathroom," said Annabelle Minter, 80, of Richmond. Minter said she also felt "on the dizzy side" and was taken to a hospital, but her roommate was even sicker.

Walter J. Vierling, 91, a retired pastor from Pearisburg, was found dead in a dormitory room, said college spokeswoman Teresa Gereaux. The medical examiner had not determined the cause of death.

Fire officials were trying to determine the source of the leak, and said they were focusing on a gas hot water system as a possible cause.

Of the 62 people taken to one of the hospitals, five were admitted — one in critical condition and the others in fair condition, said Candi Carroll, director of emergency services for Lewis-Gale Medical Center. The woman in critical condition was "awake, alert and responding," Dr. Robert Dowling said.

Carilion Roanoke Memorial Hospital had treated and released 49 people, spokesman Steve Munsey said. The patients, whose ages ranged from 15 to 82, were checked for carbon monoxide in their blood and given oxygen through face masks.

About 100 of the dormitory guests had traveled from across Virginia, North Carolina and Pennsylvania to attend Power in the Spirit, a three-day Lutheran conference. There were also 37 teenage girls from southwest Virginia staying there as part of the Upward Bound program, Gereaux said.

Those in the church group appeared to have been more severely affected because of where they were located in the dormitory, Dowling said.

Carbon monoxide is a colorless, odorless and tasteless gas that can cause sickness or death. Leaks in buildings typically come from furnaces, heaters and other gasoline-powered equipment.

Carbon monoxide poisoning is "essentially like drowning on the air," Dowling said.
Maybe bringing them home before the shit really hits the fan?

xoxoxoBruce 07-16-2006 04:13 PM
I didn't know God is in the gas water heater business, that's the only way he would be responsible. Whos fault would it have been if they were there for a dog trainers convention? :eyebrow:

Spexxvet 07-17-2006 02:45 PM
St. Bernard's?

Elspode 07-17-2006 09:41 PM
But the Westminster Kennel Club doesn't claim omnipotence and loving forgiveness of sin, so it isn't much fun wondering about their organization when a busload of poodle fanciers goes off the cliff.

footfootfoot 07-17-2006 10:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibram
Austin isn't Texas. It's as Texan as Hong Kong is Chinese.
Is that why people from Austin speak with a British accent?
I always wondered.

footfootfoot 07-17-2006 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibram
What, pray tell, does putting your legs over your shoulders have to do with philosophy?
Not to split hairs, but Buddhism is a religion and not a philosophy.

The bit aobut the legs I think it is just more gibberish confusing Yoga and Buddhism.

rkzenrage 07-17-2006 10:16 PM
No, it is not.
There is no deism nor dogma. You have no idea what you are talking about.

footfootfoot 07-17-2006 10:29 PM
Actually I do. I've been practicing Buddhsim for almost 20 years, I lived at a Buddhist monastery for a year, have been doing Koan study for over fifteen years, I received the precepts about seventeen years ago, and have read a yard of books on the Dharma.

Religion does not need to have to anything to do with god or God.

Philosophy, in that it is the study of knowledge, could be applied to Buddhism if you really wanted to by considering that according to Dogen Zenji "to study the self is to forget the self, and to forget the self is to be enlightened by the ten thousand things."

But I still say it is not a philosophy. To me, it is a religion.

footfootfoot 07-17-2006 10:32 PM
cf: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

rkzenrage 07-17-2006 10:41 PM
What do we understand by meditation? From the Buddhist point of view, meditation is a spiritual discipline, and one that allows you to have some degree of control over your thoughts and emotions. Why is it that we don't succeed in enjoying the lasting happiness that we are seeking? Buddhism explains that our normal state of mind is such that our thoughts and emotions are wild and unruly, and since we lack the mental discipline needed to tame them, we are powerless to control them. As a result, they control us. And thoughts and emotions, in their turn, tend to be controlled by our negative impulses rather than our positive ones. We need to reverse this cycle. '
HHTDL

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/...troduction.gif
• Is Buddhism a Religion?

To many, Buddhism goes beyond religion and is more of a philosophy or 'way of life'. It is a philosophy because philosophy 'means love of wisdom' and the Buddhist path can be summed up as:

(1) to lead a moral life,
(2) to be mindful and aware of thoughts and actions, and
(3) to develop wisdom and understanding.

http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm

http://www.buddhanet.net/budasa4.htm

Been practicing for around twenty years myself and have read plenty as well.... to each their own.

Rock Steady 07-17-2006 10:52 PM
Sorry, guys, but this has NOTHING to do with religion. Bad Fucking Parenting. There's no way I would let my kids near a situation like that.

This bitch has 8 kids and doesn't value half of them.

Christianity is an excuse.

footfootfoot 07-17-2006 11:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Steady
Sorry, guys, but this has NOTHING to do with religion. Bad Fucking Parenting. There's no way I would let my kids near a situation like that.

This bitch has 8 kids and doesn't value half of them.

Christianity is an excuse.
Yeah, that was just a little tangent. Your point about the bitch has been pretty much established, I'd go on to say she doesn't value any of them, but I wasn't there.

footfootfoot 07-17-2006 11:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkzenrage
...To many, Buddhism goes beyond religion and is more of a philosophy or 'way of life'. It is a philosophy because philosophy 'means love of wisdom' ...
Been practicing for around twenty years myself and have read plenty as well.... to each their own.
I think the problem here is the limitations of words. For me, personally, philosophy has a somewhat negative connotation. Probably based upon some neg. experiences with philosophy professors and philosophy grad students, who seem to delight in endless hours of mental masturbation.

So to see something as going "beyond" religion to philosophy seems backward. My bias, for sure.

The main problem with religion, for me, is how much its definition is yoked to judaeo-christian beliefs. In the wiki aritcle they are looking at the etymology of the word and coming up with interpretations by St. Augustine! What, like 300-400 years after christ?

So to apply an interpretation of the word religion that post dates other world religions by millenia seems a tad exclusionary on the part of the wiki authors.

I see religion as being a way of life, rather than a club or identity. Again, my, perhaps lonely, interpretation.

Sorry for the hijack, I just wanted to clarify my point w/ rkzenrage.

Ibby 07-18-2006 12:11 AM
I kind of think of the opposite, though, yard. I think of a philosophy, at least in the context of this, as a way of life, and of a religion as more of a club or identity.

xoxoxoBruce 07-18-2006 04:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Steady
Sorry, guys, but this has NOTHING to do with religion. Bad Fucking Parenting. There's no way I would let my kids near a situation like that.

This bitch has 8 kids and doesn't value half of them.

Christianity is an excuse.
What, you wouldn't let your kids go on a group outing?
Why do you say she doesn't(didn't) value half of them? How in hell do you know what she valued? Just because she gave the reporter the brush off doesn't mean she didn't love her kids.

Shit, the woman lost four children in one shot, don't you think she just might be a little shell shocked?...... and possibly reluctant to discuss the accident in detail with some reporter?

I don't recall her saying anything about Christ. :headshake

Spexxvet 07-18-2006 08:31 AM
As they say "God is cruel"

Spexxvet 07-18-2006 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkzenrage
What do we understand by meditation? From the Buddhist point of view, meditation is a spiritual discipline, and one that allows you to have some degree of control over your thoughts and emotions. Why is it that we don't succeed in enjoying the lasting happiness that we are seeking? Buddhism explains that our normal state of mind is such that our thoughts and emotions are wild and unruly, and since we lack the mental discipline needed to tame them, we are powerless to control them. As a result, they control us. And thoughts and emotions, in their turn, tend to be controlled by our negative impulses rather than our positive ones. We need to reverse this cycle. '
HHTDL

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/...troduction.gif
• Is Buddhism a Religion?

To many, Buddhism goes beyond religion and is more of a philosophy or 'way of life'. It is a philosophy because philosophy 'means love of wisdom' and the Buddhist path can be summed up as:

(1) to lead a moral life,
(2) to be mindful and aware of thoughts and actions, and
(3) to develop wisdom and understanding.

http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm

http://www.buddhanet.net/budasa4.htm

Been practicing for around twenty years myself and have read plenty as well.... to each their own.
One could say that Christianity is a philosophy, and prayer is akin to meditation. What do you see as the specific differences that makes Christianity (or any other "religion") a religion, and not Buddhism? Is it that Buddhism comes from the self, where tradititional western religions are based on some "outside force"?

Happy Monkey 07-18-2006 09:46 AM
Most religions have a philosophy attached, but the religious part of Christianity is the bit about Jesus being God. The Jefferson Bible would be an example of nonreligious Christian philosophy.

Buddhism in general makes no supernatural claims about Buddha, or anything else, but there are sects that do, or that incorporate Buddhism into other religions.


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