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Tragedy Begs Question of a Merciful God
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Sometimes I don't really understand religion, I guess. |
*wince* Man, I dont care if theyre christian, mormon, hindu or neo-nazi, a bunch of kids drowning is just plain bad news.
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Spode, are you saying the other mother should hire a lawyer? :confused:
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It's always very sad when children die. There is just one thing that bothers me about this.
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Swept Away
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Newspaper quotes don't convey emotions. We also don't know what else she said that wasn't quoted. I would assume this woman is weeping for her lost children and has turned to her faith for comfort. In the face of a tragedy of this magnitude, she's trying to cope and has rationalized they've gone to God. What else can she do? :( |
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Letting non-swimming kids play in a shallow, closed off pool or something under supervision) okay, but not in a river or sea. |
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Where were their life jackets??! What idiot would take a bunch of children, never mind a bunch of children who had never had swimming lessons, anywhere with water and not make them wear life jackets? And why would a parent not check this out in advance (ie: what safety measures will you be using to keep my children safe)? Stormie |
Life Jacket
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As a spoilt white kid from the suburbs, it astounds me how little public amenities urban kids have. I was lucky to have summer camps with councilors, swimming lessons, and any number of organized activities to keep me running around in a safe and fun manner. |
Elspode's question pertaining to the concept of a merciful God when we are faced with tragedy and grief is a very difficult one . As usual , I do not have any answers , but the book ' The Problem of Pain' by C.S. Lewis is a classic on the subject . It is well worth reading .
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This is, of course, an unmitigated tragedy. Things like this make me wonder how people continue to view Jehovah as a loving, forgiving god instead of just realizing that The Universe works the way it works...good, bad or indifferent. It also makes me wonder about people who use tragedy to reap profit. I think the law is perfectly capable of determining whether or not negligence was involved, but instead, lawyers are going to threaten whoever has the deepeset pockets that was involved in any way...be that the church, the State Park, the people supervising the trip, the maker of the swimming trunks the kids were wearing... I was just expressing dismay and provocation at the two different reactions to the same event, and hoping to stimulate a little discussion about what others think or feel about same. |
Wow. I think if something like this happened to me I would need something to hold on to. Though I am at constant question with myself about the existence of a higher being, if I had to go through something like that I would hope to have some kind of faith to hold on to. But I don't know that I would. I would probably be cursing the God I had just praised.
It's terribly sad. |
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Edris Moore lost four children. In age order they are: Damon Johnson, 17; Ryan Mason, 14; Dana Johnson, 13; and Bryant Barnes, 10. She also has four additional children, and I would bet any sum of money that none of them has the last name Mason, Barnes, or even Johnson (despite the fact that he makes repeat appearances between other children). I just... birth control. BIRTH CONTROL, dammit. |
But if you don't have 8 kids and you suddenly lose 4, you won't have 4 left to take care of you in your old age.
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My sister was killed in an automobile accident at 14, and the reporters twisted my Mother, pretty badly until Pop blew his top. |
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God was merciful in this. If he wasn't they would have died in a fire.
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And in other news, Elsposde was cited by the grammar police for abuse of the idiom "begging the question". Now there's a tragedy for you . :-)
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Because of familiarity with swimming pools, etc., people rarely respect the power of water. I can easily envision these non-swimming kids being in water no higher than their knees or waists, but in a river that depth can still have a fast current.
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The Baby-Daddies
Fobble was commenting on the propensity of urban black women to have many children with different men and never get married. These "baby-daddies" come and go, but generally do not spend a lot of time being real "daddies." This is a very real problem. I work with many black women and they are not afraid to discuss this issue. Most of them have very middle-class values, are married, and see themselves as completely different than the single moms with several different baby daddies. That said, they know first-hand of that sub-culture and bemoan its existence and growth. Just the other day, I overheard our black mailroom clerk yelling at her daughter on the phone: "You had a baby for a check! You had a baby for a check!" She was pissed because she, a single mom herself, now is a grandmother to a single mom, and who knows how many more grandkids she will have. I think 8 kids is a bit much for any mom, let alone a single black mom in St. Louis. Drive through East St. Louis and you will wonder how anybody can come out of there unscathed, either psychologically or economically. Do these women "have babies for a check" ? I'm sure many do. Some do not. I can look out my window right now and see six or seven single teen black moms with one kid in a stroller and another by her side; sometimes three or four kids. They are not waiting for the bus to take them to swimming lessons.
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But I do think it is reasonable to suggest that a woman living in poverty in urban St. Louis and having her eighth child is irresponsible, to say the least, and has no excuse not to be using birth control. ...And maybe they're not even all her biological children, maybe she takes in all these kids from bad homes who would otherwise have no one to care for them. Maybe she's a veritable saint. I have no idea. |
Pangloss
This ' baby-daddy' scene can be seen all over the Caribbean too . As do many others , I believe ( know ?)that it is linked to the history of slavery . The concept of personal identity , language and family was shattered into tiny pieces and that traumatism lives on . I do not have the exact dates to hand , but Wilberforce and Schoelcher were only beginning to be listened to in the mid nineteenth century . This is very recent , as you know . Please do not think I am being critical of America yet again . I am perfectly aware of the fact that the wealth and culture of Liverpool , Bristol , le Havre , Bordeaux , La Rochelle is based on the slave-trade . |
You have a gross misunderstanding of American culture, and of Black American Culture. This has nothing to do with slavery. The Baby Daddy phenomenon is relatively recent, as the sexual mores of this country have changed significantly in the recent past (let's just say 50 years, for argument's sake, although this particular trending overlays both the notion of 'free love' and the feminist movement. As out of wedlock childbirth has become less stigmatizing, more children have this status, and remain with the birth mother, where in the past a young lady would have been quietly sent away until the time of her disgrace was over and the adoption was finalized.
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I am listening , Wolf .
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Crunkworld
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Now, before we divide into the "It's all about slavery" and "Johnson's Great Society created this problem" camps, we should consider how both may have contributed to what I see as the problem of too many unwed black mothers with several children fathered by different men (I used the italics for myself because some anthropologists argue that there is nothing intrinsically "bad" or "immoral" about such a subculture; it's just different). When one considers not just slavery, but the decades of inequality that followed, it would be hard to argue that black American society does not still have some deeply imbedded cultural and psychological attributes related to that history that contribute to the contemporary situation under discussion. It could also be argued that trying to help poor urban blacks to attain economic viability by giving them money might have the tendency to create a sense of entitlement and/or a slothful lifestyle. It's all very sad because this nation had many examples of viable, self-sufficient black communities with strong families. What happened? I don't know completely. The urban environment does not provide a good (legal) economic ladder, especially for young men. The dynamic between the young men and young women is pathological for many, and I see this dynamic every single day here in downtown Atlanta. It's scary because these kids are the future of this city. There were more cases of child exploitation (pimping) in Atlanta last year than ANY American city. Is the vibrant -if disturbing- hip-hop/crunk culture here a result of this behavior or a cause of it? All these young black dudes sell their own crunk music on the streets down here, hoping for fame and fortune, but it's the lifestyle of the latter that drives them, not some wish to become an upstanding citizen or dutiful father. There are plenty of the latter, but they're moving out to the burbs, and I don't blame them. |
I just want to tell you that I am reading what you have just said very carefully , Pangloss . I shall read it again and again and then reply .
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Understood.
Austin is probably one of the better places to be in Texas, by the way. |
No, it's the best! :)
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Austin isn't Texas. It's as Texan as Hong Kong is Chinese.
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I've never understood the idea that God is down here mucking around in our stuff.
We are here to deal or not deal with it all as best we can... God is with us, but we have free will in all things, great and small. That is the deal. The idea that God "lets" bad or "gives" good things, SantaGod, has always confused the hell out of me. It just makes no sense at all. |
You told us earlier that you were a Buddhist , rkzenrage .
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I am. I also have studied all religions for most of my life. Spent some time in seminary prep as a young man.
I am a follower of Christ, not a Christian. Consider him a Buddha, as many Buddhist do. |
Well , I am a follower of Christ too . In the dusty feet way .
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I cannot put my legs over my shoulders , so I am not a Buddhist .
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What, pray tell, does putting your legs over your shoulders have to do with philosophy?
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Yoga and my Path are separate. But, the breathing did help a great deal with my meditation. I started it because of my acting degree. Continued because of my pain management and the sex.
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But buddug has made more than one reference to it.
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Probably because a lot of people that are not schooled in Buddhism, myself included, associate the Buddhist monk image portrayed by Hollywood and the media. :confused:
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Jehova Continues to Bump Off His Followers
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I didn't know God is in the gas water heater business, that's the only way he would be responsible. Whos fault would it have been if they were there for a dog trainers convention? :eyebrow:
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St. Bernard's?
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But the Westminster Kennel Club doesn't claim omnipotence and loving forgiveness of sin, so it isn't much fun wondering about their organization when a busload of poodle fanciers goes off the cliff.
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I always wondered. |
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The bit aobut the legs I think it is just more gibberish confusing Yoga and Buddhism. |
No, it is not.
There is no deism nor dogma. You have no idea what you are talking about. |
Actually I do. I've been practicing Buddhsim for almost 20 years, I lived at a Buddhist monastery for a year, have been doing Koan study for over fifteen years, I received the precepts about seventeen years ago, and have read a yard of books on the Dharma.
Religion does not need to have to anything to do with god or God. Philosophy, in that it is the study of knowledge, could be applied to Buddhism if you really wanted to by considering that according to Dogen Zenji "to study the self is to forget the self, and to forget the self is to be enlightened by the ten thousand things." But I still say it is not a philosophy. To me, it is a religion. |
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What do we understand by meditation? From the Buddhist point of view, meditation is a spiritual discipline, and one that allows you to have some degree of control over your thoughts and emotions. Why is it that we don't succeed in enjoying the lasting happiness that we are seeking? Buddhism explains that our normal state of mind is such that our thoughts and emotions are wild and unruly, and since we lack the mental discipline needed to tame them, we are powerless to control them. As a result, they control us. And thoughts and emotions, in their turn, tend to be controlled by our negative impulses rather than our positive ones. We need to reverse this cycle. '
HHTDL http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/...troduction.gif • Is Buddhism a Religion? To many, Buddhism goes beyond religion and is more of a philosophy or 'way of life'. It is a philosophy because philosophy 'means love of wisdom' and the Buddhist path can be summed up as: (1) to lead a moral life, (2) to be mindful and aware of thoughts and actions, and (3) to develop wisdom and understanding. http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell03.htm http://www.buddhanet.net/budasa4.htm Been practicing for around twenty years myself and have read plenty as well.... to each their own. |
Sorry, guys, but this has NOTHING to do with religion. Bad Fucking Parenting. There's no way I would let my kids near a situation like that.
This bitch has 8 kids and doesn't value half of them. Christianity is an excuse. |
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So to see something as going "beyond" religion to philosophy seems backward. My bias, for sure. The main problem with religion, for me, is how much its definition is yoked to judaeo-christian beliefs. In the wiki aritcle they are looking at the etymology of the word and coming up with interpretations by St. Augustine! What, like 300-400 years after christ? So to apply an interpretation of the word religion that post dates other world religions by millenia seems a tad exclusionary on the part of the wiki authors. I see religion as being a way of life, rather than a club or identity. Again, my, perhaps lonely, interpretation. Sorry for the hijack, I just wanted to clarify my point w/ rkzenrage. |
I kind of think of the opposite, though, yard. I think of a philosophy, at least in the context of this, as a way of life, and of a religion as more of a club or identity.
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Why do you say she doesn't(didn't) value half of them? How in hell do you know what she valued? Just because she gave the reporter the brush off doesn't mean she didn't love her kids. Shit, the woman lost four children in one shot, don't you think she just might be a little shell shocked?...... and possibly reluctant to discuss the accident in detail with some reporter? I don't recall her saying anything about Christ. :headshake |
As they say "God is cruel"
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Most religions have a philosophy attached, but the religious part of Christianity is the bit about Jesus being God. The Jefferson Bible would be an example of nonreligious Christian philosophy.
Buddhism in general makes no supernatural claims about Buddha, or anything else, but there are sects that do, or that incorporate Buddhism into other religions. |
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