Alcoholics Anonymous is a Religion
 

Every American appellate court that has addressed the issue in recent years has determined that AA and similar 12 step programs are religions for First Amendment establishment clause purposes, hence atheist prisoners and defendants cannot constitutionally be required to attend 12 step programs.

Griffin v. Coughlin, 88 N.Y.2d 674, 673 N.E.2d 98, 649 N.Y.S.2d 903 (N.Y. 1996), Kerr v. Farrey, 95 F.3d 472 (7th Cir. 1996), Warner v. Orange County Dept. of Probation, 827 F. Supp. 261 (S.D.N.Y. 1993), Evans v. Board of Pardons and Paroles, 56 S.W.2d 478 (Tenn., 1997).

Well, it isn't a religion in itself, but it does require some form of religious expression, sorta like the Boy Scouts. Of course, also like the Scouts, I'm sure thare are AA gatherings that are tied to a patricular religion and push it pretty hard, regardless of the official position of the national organization.

Actually, the courts think it is a religion itself. AA requires a person to believe in a higher power to take control of their lives.

There are agnostic AA meetings where a member can pick a secular higher power, such as the group, the ocean, or an undefined spirtuality.

Another thing to account for is that some things that are unconsitutuional as sentences are valid for plea bargains, such as Anabuse medication or AA meetings.

If Alcoholics Anonymous are going for the religion stakes , they should head for Islam . Christianity is crap at banning booze .

The official stance of AA is that (paraphrasing) members are "powerless over alcohol, and none but a higher power may restore them".

Now, depending on where you are influences what exactly a "higher power" is. For instance, AA meetings held in a Christian church basement will therefore be attended by Christians who take God as their higher power. I can't speak from experience, but I would believe that meetings held in other religious houses would follow along similar lines. I personally never heard of meetings being held on strictly secular ground, but I imagine it possible.

And Bud, that's just the Catholics. Protestants use grape juice.

CB, you are right about the official stance. It's part of the 12 Steps.

Actually, I've been in secular AA meetings in Church rooms. The Churches charge the AA meetings for the space. There is usually no affiliation with the Church itself.

I chaired a meeting regularly where we changed it to a "FreeThinkers Meeting" eliminating the Lord's Prayer at the end.

I cannot stomach AA meetings, try as I might. The whole Christianity aspect leaves me dry-heaving. I hate those Holier-Than-Thou MF's. I really do. They believe that an alcoholic must prostrate herself on the alter of humiliation to get well. F*q that. humiliation and Chrisitanity is why I drank in the first place.

Interestingly, I've seen three different Pagan AA-type groups form and fail. Pagans not only don't want traditional deity-based recovery groups, they don't seem to even want a semblance of organization.

Damn Pagans.

@Els: funny as hell those pagans.

Amen, girlfriend. I know what you are saying. There is an AA group in Etan near here that we call "On-your-knees Etan". Twice I've seen people from that group go to other AA meetings and make some poor guy kneel down in the parking lot.

This same guy came to my FreeThinkers meeting and argued that we should re-institute the Lord's Prayer. I told him that I searched the Big Book, and the Lord's Prayer is never mentioned. Voting consensus was to keep the FreeThinkers format.

And, yea, the Catholic Church is the biggest factory that produces Alcoholics.

I went thru that AA phase and decided that I wasn't really an alcoholic after all. It was good to put the drink to the side for a while. Also, I came out of the whole process with some new tools. I still say the Serenity Prayer often.

Gwen, grant me
The Serentity to accept the things I can not change,
The Courage to change the things I can and
The Wisdom to know the difference.

Progress, not perfection.

Also, I found it to be a good idea for me after finishing a pint of rum, not to drive out and buy another one. :D

Peter Coors, 59, and president of Coors Brewing company was recently arrested for drunk driving. And some once insisted they had to do a hajj west of the Mississippi for that beer. Sounds like a religion to me - complete with alcoholics.

A hajj for Coors? That's insane. I won't even take my ass down the block to the distributor for Coors, much less Rocky Mountain Crazy Ice Train Town (or wherever they brew it). Take a journey with some purpose, go to Dublin.

10 years ago there was a funny ad campaign by Coors claiming they were selling in all 49 states.

I love Oregon for tell Pete Coors to shove it up his ass.

[quote=Chewbaccus]The official stance of AA is that (paraphrasing) members are "powerless over alcohol, and none but a higher power may restore them". [quote]

I am powerless over my bills, and nothing but money may restore me.

I've seen one of these meetings. A guy who claimed he couldn't talk in front of friends had no problem getting up in front of twenty strangers and saying "Hi, I'm Jack, and I'm an Alcoholic."

I don't believe in Alcoholics Anonymous.
I ain't anonymous.
And everyone knows I drink.
And I ain't an alcoholic.
I'm a drunk.
Alcoholics go to the meetings.

Exactly. Insanity. what is one of the scariest things for people to do? Public speaking. In AA they ask you to speak in front of a room of strangers for an hour and spill your guts. The thought of doing that engenders a very strong need for a drink in me. I like Rational Recovery.

I know this doesn't work for everyone, but I didn't turn myself over to a 'higher power' and I didn't go to any meetings, I took control of myself. I realized I was going overboard (an understatement) with the alcohol and I simply quit buying it or ordering it when I was out. Now, I rarely go to bars or places that exclusively serve alcohol. I keep plenty of non-alchoholic bottled drinks around for the times I just want that old, familiar feeling of having my fist wrapped around the neck of a bottle and chugging down whatever it contains.

I haven't had a drop of alcohol in more than three years. I don't miss the hangovers, that's for sure. I do miss the lack of inhibitions that alcohol gave me. I was funny, affectionate, verbose and a wild cat in bed when I drank. Sober, I'm much more reserved and shy.

Oh well.

Stormie

I cannot remember which literary wag said it , but I have always liked the line ' I drink to make you lot seem more interesting ' . Perhaps that would be a good thing to tell those holier-than-thou AA people you refer to , Brianna .

I have always liked the other classic too : 'An Englishman is born two whiskies under par' . Some nations , on the contrary , seem to be born drunk ( lucky them) . My father's theory is that wise Mohammed knew this , and this is why he banned the booze for his own people .

On a more somber note , I also think the line from the drunk to the Little Prince , by Antoine de St Exupéry is relevant . The drunk tells the Little Prince that he drinks to forget he is a drunk . That is surely the worst reason of all to drink too much .

The one and only time I turned my life over to a "higher power", I got a snappy uniform and went on vacation on the "Uncle Sam Vacation Plan".

Higher power
 

440V?:shocking:

Folks, to be fully blunt with you all, I've seen more snide, self-righteous sentiment here on this board to this point than I have in any AA room I've ever been in. (Granted, I've also never been in a place that Rock described, but still.)

You lot can drink and put the bottle down. Congratulations. You are not an alcoholic. An alcoholic is not "that guy at the bar that has one final drink before last call". Alcoholism is a form of a mental disease whereby the victim simply cannot feel good about him or herself without an external stimulus to that particular part of the brain. Alcoholics use booze. Other drug users use their particular drug of choice. Sex addicts bone. Alcohol for an alcoholic is just the way that particular person manifests their problem.

The public speaking thing, you'd be amazed. First of all, someone doesn't walk in on their first day and spill their guts. It takes quite a while. Further - and this is just my hypothesis - people are spooked about speaking to crowds mostly because they know/see/interact with the people in said crowd on a fairly regular basis, therefore any error or public humiliation will stay with them long after they have left the podium.

In AA, you (by and large) don't know the people in the rooms. Everyone's on a first-name basis, which seven times out of ten is usually an alias. When you get up to speak, you know that (A) what you're about to say is very similar to what you've been hearing others say for the last X meetings you've gone to with your own personal twists to it, and (B) what you say in that room stays in that room. It won't be a topic of conversation at the water cooler, people won't be looking at you funny at the bowling alley, or at the grocery store, or when you pick your kid up at school. When you get up and say your story, nobody for whom it isn't their first time looks at you judgmentally beacuse they recognize the guts it takes to stand up and they also know they've been down a parallel path.

We hear terms "higher power" and "turning your life over" and we make them punchlines. But the fact is that these people cannot simply "stop drinking". They can't take control of themselves, by themselves. They admit this to others, to themselves, and I don't think enough of us realize the sheer magnitude of that admission in a society like ours where self-control and self-reliance come so highly prized.

Say what you will, make all the jokes you want, but the fact remains that there's some serious fucking courage in a lot of those meetings. It's not something to be mocked. It's something to be lauded.

Well written Chew. America as a culture is cynical about pretty much everything. Thanks for reminding us that there are people making hard won changes in their lives. Not all heroes are famous.

Good post, Chewbaccus. There are a lot of things to be lauded. Just like any human endeavor there are imperfections.

Anyone that took control themselves was not an alcoholic in the first place. It's hard to understand why someone else can't take control of themselves, by themselves. But that is the nature of the disease.

I apologise if I came across as self-righteous. That was not my intent. I admire each and every individual who has the willpower to fight alcoholism, whether it be via AA meetings or any other method.

I merely meant that, for me, a 'higher power' was not what worked. I had religion crammed down my throat (and beaten into my body) my entire childhood. A large part of what I despise are the teachings that we sinners are completely at the mercy of Satan and our own weak souls and without begging for the intervention of God/a higher power, we are doomed. I refuse to believe that I am that pitiful. But that's just my personal viewpoint. It does however, prevent me from using 12 step programs that require turning yourself over to a higher power.

Oh yes, I am an alcoholic. I didn't have one more drink at the bar before closing time, oh no. I had to take a 12 pack home with me because I wasn't done until I could no longer stand up or I passed out. Not just on Saturday nights, mind you. Every single night. For years. I drank to numb myself and to feel good/happy/attractive. As long as I was the life of the party and totally stewed, I never had to face my inner demons.

I was not implying that everyone should do (or be able to do) what I did. Not at all. Each person has his/her own pathway to the desired result. But I don't see why the efforts of someone who did it differently than the standard AA should be minimalized and trivialized.

Stormie

I understand Storm, and agree. I'm sorry if you thought I was including you or singling you out. You made it pretty clear that you understood what worked for you doesn't necessarily do so for others. It's just that people throw the word "alcoholic" around so easily, it cheapens it. Between that and elements of the program geting sniped at...every so often, my back gets up about the whole thing and I need to dust off the soapbox.

I'm an alcoholic. I'm not some woman who took a tipple too much of Chardonnay one evening and wobbled home on my high heels. That said, I don't need to qualify myself to you or anyone else here. I've been to AA meetings for 20 years. What have I found in those hallowed rooms? 13 steppers,(and guys with 10-15 years sobriety should really knock that shit out) thieves, moochers, liars, braggarts, people who are secretly still using but come to meetings and act like they're Bill W's best friend. AA works for you? Goody. I doesn't work for everyone. There's nothing like an AA meeting that makes me want to go on a bender. Yeah, some people stay sober by going to those meetings, no doubt about that, but it never, ever worked for me and goddess knows I tried. The clubs here are clique-y and exclusive--old timers are NOT interested in newcomers (newcomers! The Most Important People Here!) but in maintaining their particular strangle-hold over particular meetings. I've seen guys with 20 years of sobriety refuse to let a newcomer, who desperately needed the sense of community and belonging and responsibility, take over the coffee making for the noon meeting. Just because you're sober doesn't mean you still aren't sick.

I did find the wharf rats at Dead concerts to be a loving, honest sober living community.

Bri-- Yea, I've seen that stuff at AA too. I've seen the good and the bad. In the bay area it is very clique-y, some of these people form their kingdoms and meeting politics can get ugly; they violate the 12 principals reguarly.

But there are some quality people in the mix too. I just got a phone call from a guy I haven't seen in two years. We compared notes on our job situations and he wished me luck in my search. No agenda for his call, just checking in.

But, really, I had to leave AA because I was getting new relationships that generated new resentments to use 4th Step on. Kind of feeding on itself.

Chewbaccus, my comments, yes, were snide. And they are directly related to my own personal experience with AA.

If it works for you, great.

However, in my line of work, I've seen events that make me think people don't understand that AA only works for those who want it to work.

I had a case where a father of three got plastered, shot his wife in the face with a 12 gauge, and then proceeded to butcher the corpse to consume it. When the kids came home from school, he slit their throats.

At the trial, this "pillar of society" claimed "temporary insanity due to overuse of intoxicants". The softhearted judge gave him 5 years of AA.

This fuck is walking the streets and having a good old time.

So excuse me if I take a dim view of AA.
As I said, if it works for you, great.
More power to you.

That guy is probably the 13-stepper I was talking about.

So whats the 13th step then? Get drunk, do something horrific and then start all over with a clean slate at step 1?

I read things like this...

...and I start to doubt myself. I begin argueing that maybe I'm not really an alcoholic and I could control myself if I drank because, after all, some other people don't think I am.

My spouse went out of town recently and my first thought as I left the airport after dropping him off was, I could have a beer or two and no one would ever know!!

Then I come to my senses and realize I'm trying to delude myself. It doesn't matter what Rock Steady or people on a message board think, and it doesn't matter if my spouse never knows that I sneaked a drink or two. I don't want to lose my hard earned sobriety or my self respect. So I get busy with other things and try to stop thinking about what a cold beer or a Seabreeze tastes like. And I go another day without a drink.

Stormie

Oh, a 13 stepper is someone with lots of sober time who comes on to the new and vulnerable and not-so sober people in order to have sex with them. They prey on them. It's very slimy behavior. If 13 stepping was merely relapsing and doing something horrible while drunk...well, I would be the world's greatest 13 stepper.

I wish I had your sensibility, stormie. You sound very solid in your recovery.

So why is that AA's fault? Sounds to me like the judge is the one who's at fault here.

This past week I came to terms with the fact that I am an alcoholic.
I have been all of my life. Recently I have risked my life with it, risked leaving my wife and son alone... I am an idiot and selfish bastard.
This morning a friend who has a cigar shop came and emptied my wine cellar and took all the alcohol and all of my homemade liquors (ironic hobby, yes?), he will be back for all of the glassware and bar-ware soon.
He is a good friend for getting up early and doing this for me.
I am terrified of what happens next, feel weak and ashamed of lying to myself for all of my life because I have always been a "functional drinker" and have "quit" for so many times and how I bla, bla, bla, bla... even with osteoporosis I drank encouraging bone loss, even with a failing liver, even with meds that...
Now, I don't have anything but my own ability to stick to my convictions to deal with this.
I don't believe in a higher power that controls shit, nothing but will.
My son's well being and the shame of what I have done will be enough, it has to be.

In your case , can't will-power be seen as a higher power , rkzenrage ? Perhaps some people , unlike you , need to personify the concept of will ? This is why they use God .

Perhaps, still very new for me and I am absorbing it... giving in to it, I guess. It will come.

My best wishes to you. It is a tricky, tricky thing, alcoholism. Try not to beat yourself up too terribly.

((((((((((((((Rkzenrage))))))))))))

That first admission is a rough one, and you've done it.

When I want a drink, I think of my children and the impact my behavior has on them. I think of how I'm shortening my life (I also have liver problems) and how selfish and unfair to them that is. I tell myself that I have been strong enough to survive SO much in my life, and that I am stubborn enough to refuse to give in to this desire. I don't tell myself I will never drink again, just that I won't have a drink today. Just for today I will drink non-alcoholic drinks and stay sober.

When I first quit drinking, I was at loose ends without a beer nearby. I spent hours and days immersing myself in creating bead loom jewelry. One tiny bead, then another, then another...pull tight, fit it under the threads and weave the needle back through...rinse, repeat. It kept me occupied and the repetitive detail work helped focus me on something other than...omg, NOT drinking.

I know that precise activity is not feasible for you, but finding something focused and detailed to concentrate on helps...

Oh! I kept the last two beers from the last 12 pack I ever bought in my fridge for 2 years. I'm not sure exactly why, probably because as long as those two beers were still in there...I was sober. I'm weird like that...

Whatever works for YOU is all that matters. Good luck!

Stormie

You have taken the first, most difficult step, rk. I admire and respect you for that, and wish you strength to carry on down the road on which you have just taken the first step.

My liver problems started due to my illness, though I'm sure my drinking helped a great deal... the fact that I knew that and still drank really stays with me.

Thank all of you for your support and kindness.

We have several AA meeting places that are not religiously located....there's even one in the cellar of a bar.

AA meetings are a gathering of a group of people that have one thing in common.....they are alcoholics that don't want to be and are trying to do something about it. That may be the only thing they have in common because they're a cross section on the general population, with all the prejudices and traits that implies.

Just because you have something in common with someone doesn't make them your friend or enemy.....they're strangers and must be treated with the same caution. ;)