What Will the Feds Allow *You* to Put on Your Headstone
 

Dubya said some time back that Wicca isn't a religion. The Pentagon has been stonewalling the addition of the Pentacle as an approved religious symbol for engraving on the headstones of veterans in National Cemeteries. So what think you? Should the government get to decide what expression of religious affiliation should and should not go on the headstone of someone who may have given all they had to give for their country?

The ACLU thinks not. There is a growing tide to get this typically narrowminded restriction changed, but we aren't there yet.

What do ya'll say? Approved religions only? Or freedom of religious expression, even in death? Does it hurt anyone if there's a pent on a headstone?

We would be hypocrites if we did not allow people to display their religious affiliation. The fed have no right to discern if a religion is "real" or not, our country was founded on religious freedom and not allowing people to express it in this manner is completely opposite to what this country is meant to represent.

Such ignorance! The Pentacle is also a sign of Solomon.

I thought the military was one of the few institutions that was cool with Wicca?

I think the hangup is, Hollywood has used the pent as a symbol of evil, mark of the devil. Many people don't know Wiccan* from wicker and might be down on the administration for spending tax money on it.

You can say, well that's their problem that they're ignorant, but if they're voters it becomes the politicians problem. It's a case of doing what's right for a small minority vs political expediency. Of course we all know where that goes.:right:

* even spellcheck doesn't know

Even if it were devil worship, there should be freedom to exercise that religion. Religion is religion, after all. Except for idiots that think theirs is the only one.

I'm expecting to see anti-Halloween legislaton soon.

Sure, but that's an alien thought to politicians and the government employees that fear them, Spexx.
You speak of principles, I speak of (low down scum sucking dogs) reality. :lol:

Not a chance, Chick is a wacko, and there is way too much money being made on Halloween. It's passed every holiday but Christmas for profits and still growing fast. :D

We can't have the celebration of "evil spirits and human sacrifice" challenging the birth of Christ!

Edit: [/sarcasm]

Ah, but it's not a celebration evil spirits and human sacrifice. It was a celebration of the harvest until Boniface stole it for the group he was promoting, Mary and the martyrs, about 600ad.
Then in this past century it was appropriated again for a new group, Hershey and the Mask Makers. ;)

This is why I both Love and sorta am Annoyed by xob. He's always right (god, it's tedious) and has the unEmotional side of things under his thumb...but--BUT! I love a celebration of the Harvest AND of Mary and the martyrs AND Hershey! It makes me feel all dirty inside.

I guess I just love a party.




*ashamed*

Not a headstone, but it is an official memorial plaque ...

Circle Sanctuary is very active in the fight for pagan recognition.

One of the problems, of course, is that there are more types of Neo-Pagan practice than Wicca, and not all of the would use the pentacle as a representative sacred symbol.

If any government entity ought to understand Paganism, it is definitely Nevada. They're to be commended for their groundbreaking action, but this is a national issue, and it needs to be solved.

Circle Sanctuary has been at the fore of this battle for some time now, and everyone who believes in religious freedom owes them a big "thanks".

Why would there be a religious symbol of any sort on something like that? Seems rather irrelevant to the issue at hand to me...

Meh--my instincts say this one is all about money. They're terrified that if they budge an inch (and allow pentagram headstones for Wiccans) then that'll set a precedent for another 50 new headstone style requests, and they won't be able to buy them wholesale anymore...

Why? This way everyone can celebrate Halloween for which ever reason they want, without anybody judging them.
It's simply love the one you're with.;)

That can't be, I'm sure the government is paying list plus, for everything. :(

Can nothing happen in this country anymore but that someone has to sue someone else? Sheesh.

From here.

I really don't see what the frikk it has to do with an anybody else what people chooose to put on their headstone.

It is a real shame that these types sully the names by calling themselves Americans and Christians... they behave as neither.

Excuse me, could you point out where the article said the VA was Christian? :eyebrow:

Who else would care about pentacles?

An Octopus!....no wait that's tentacles...

I just did a coven class on the history and meaning of the Pentagram and Pentacle on Sunday night. It might well surprise some to learn the pentagram was used as a Christian symbol for a long, long time. One of its original meanings was the unity of corporeal Man with the Divine, with the five points symbolizing the head and appendages of the human body. Those familiar with DaVinci's drawing which demonstrates the geometric symmetry of the human form have seen one representation of this same concept. Early Christians adopted it as representational of the five wounds of Christ, the five virtues of Mary, and other Pentacostal expressions. In fact, its use endures in the form of the familiar five-petaled rose seen in many church structures.

Further, the pentagram is one of many geometric expressions of the Golden Ratio, a mathematical formula which appears in Nature in countless forms, and the underlying beauty of which was used prominently as a plot factor in "The DaVinci Code".

In short, the Pentagram is the heritage of all Mankind. Its direct association with Wicca, and the subsequent tendency by other more mainstream religions to incorrectly ascribe its meaning as Satanic or dark, is a relatively recent thing. In fact, the pentagram has been used for nearly six thousand years in one orientation or other (one point up/two points up), and only since the late 19th Century has there been *any* baleful association with this enduring symbol.

Attempts to demonize such a fundamental and sociolgically meaningful icon are shortsighted, selfish and unnecessarily antagonistic.

Do you also need the article to specify the difference between your ass and a hole in the ground?

Flint's a bit stuck in his ass and his hole in the ground.
:p

I posted it here first, then I thought: Is this an American-ism, or what?

Absolutely.

Edited: Excuse me...abso-freaking-lutely!

The pentagram has also been used by many Christian churches through time as well.
Some think of it as symbolizing the five wounds of Christ. There are fruits and flowers that have it in their shapes and cores, an apple in Greece comes to mind, are sacred in some areas for this reason.
It did not become naughty until very recently... when the Pope used it to frame the Masons and the Knights Templar.
Those who are superstitious about it are just ignorant and focusing on things other than the teachings of Christ... more Us-&-Them crap.

que?

wiccans are not christians. and you don't have to be christian to be american.

I don't know, but it's still an assumption to accuse anyone but the VA, isn't it? :eyebrow:

I need more than somebodies prejudices, assumptions or childish bullshit to make a connection between the V.A.'s actions and anyone but the V.A.:rtfm:

See: all of human history. It satisfies a massive burden of proof, that properly attributes the restriction of alternate religious routes by the predominant monotheistic institutions. The alternative theory, assuming innocence on the benevolent behalf of these institutions, is not supported by the evidence. It's naive, because it does not correlate well with demonstrable reality.

Honest, decent people who simply want to live their lives and not be culturally assimilated by an expansionist dogma must remain hyper-vigilant against what has been demonstrated to be these inevitable aspects of monotheistic institutions. This is a concrete reality, not a paranoid delusion, or an agenda to belittle anyone's faith.

The people who seem to be caught in the middle are the ones who honestly follow the actual tenets of the spiritual path, but have no feeling of association with the cultural power structure based falsely on these teachings. They defend what isn't being attacked, by awkwardly denying the existence of what everyone else can clearly see.

Who's accusing anyone but the VA? Or, more precisely, people who make VA policy?

Yup. And the Feds are going to lose, eventually. The VA's position is indefensible, ultimately. They're just using the monolithic inertia of the system to try and bankrupt or frustrate those who seek to force the change.

Hey, if the US government recognized the Mormons and the Scientologists as valid religions, that means any fantasy you care to invent is valid for a tax deduction. Once they did that, there is no legal or moral reason for the Wiccans to be excluded. They have considerably more history and philosophy behind them than those other two crackpot cults. So what exactly IS the problem with getting the government to give them the same rights? Probably lobbyists >:

If the military can discriminate based on sex, orientation, or any other factor, they can discriminate on religion all they want, too.

Which is what I responded to. I think it's safe to assume they V.A. policy makers are Americans. Don't they have to be? But I don't see anything in that article about them being Christians.:confused:

The V.A. is not a monotheistic institution, nor in the United States Government. The V.A. is however the subject of this thread and their stupidity is the problem.

Blaming Christians at the V.A., while very well may be true, has no basis in fact based on the article we have been shown. If you want to make that accusation, then provide substantiation or stick it back up where you pulled it out of. :turd:

The military covers their's with fitness for duty. The asshats at the V.A. headstone committee can only legitimately reject you for not being dead.:yeldead:

Substantiation: They care about pentacles.

That doesn't prove that their objection is because the are Christian, or even that they are. There's no basis in the article for that accusation. :headshake

A subset of Christians is the only group for whom the pentacle is a negative symbol.

A subset of Christians is the only group that has publicly stated so? Is this subset running the V.A.? Nobody has made that connection in the quoted article, so it's an unfair assumption until the subset claims responsibility, The V.A. places blame, or a third party can provide proof.

I maintain the V.A. is just being asshats until somebody can prove there's an agenda behind the decision. The leap from suspicion to accusation needs proof.

That said, we're off on a tangent. I originally questioned the statement that the V.A. call themselves Christian, or even believe they are. I still do.

You may know what's going on behind the scenes but I don't. I can only speculate and that's not enough to make accusations.:cool:

Apparrently. At least the headstone-symbol-choice part of the V.A.

[IMG]http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/6...einstarcw3.jpg[/IMG]

Can't we all just get along?

After all, even in death we must all

My wife has that COEXIST bumper sticker on her car.