The Cellar - Fingergate

The Cellar (http://cellar.org/index.php)

- Politics (http://cellar.org/forumdisplay.php?f=5)

- - Fingergate (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=12307)

My wife saw this story on the news and told me about it tonight. It seems to have picked up some steam.

Quote:

Reichert bragged about getting finger-waving bus driver firedSEATTLE (AP) — Rep. Dave Reichert, R-Wash., bragged at a Republican Party picnic last summer that the day after a school bus driver flipped off President Bush, he called the district's superintendent, leaving picnic-goers with the impression that he was responsible for getting the driver fired.
That differs from a version of the story told by Issaquah School District officials and Reichert's staff this week: That Reichert didn't speak to the superintendent for weeks, and that by the time he did, the bus driver had already been fired. His press secretary said Friday the discrepancy was "not a big deal" and that at the picnic Reichert was just telling a story, not trying to reconstruct the timeline exactly.
The bus driver, a 43-year-old single mother, was bringing a busload of middle-school children back from the Woodland Park Zoo in Seattle on June 16 when the president and Reichert drove slowly by in a motorcade on their way to a fundraiser. From the bus, stopped on an onramp to Interstate 5, the children waved; with the windows down in their car, Bush and Reichert waved back.

Quote:

Reichert, a freshman congressman who is in a tight re-election campaign against Democrat Darcy Burner, has used the anecdote on the campaign trail to illustrate there's a proper way and an improper way to disagree with the president. One can disagree with president while still showing respect to the office, he says.

Wow, another elected official who just loves the Constitution. I'm not going to say it was perfectly alright for a school bus driver to give anyone the finger with kids on the bus, but I don't consider a single incident grounds for dismissal, no matter who the recipient was.

Quote:

School district spokeswoman Sara Niegowski said Friday that the bus driver was fired in early September — after Reichert's speech on Aug. 12 — but that the process of terminating her began the day of the incident.
Niegowski also said the firing was not about who the driver flipped off, but because she made the gesture in front of students.
Chris Dugovich, president of Council 2 of the Washington State Council of County and City Employees, disputed that Friday. No children saw the driver's gesture because she held her hand high out the window while the children were all looking at the president, he said. He added that when the district fired the woman in September, officials cited "a presidential aide" as the source of the complaint.
"She did this in a manner in which the kids clearly would not see it," Dugovich said. "She also apologized immediately to the school district. In 25 years I can't recall an instance where that type of incident would warrant that type of penalty."

This Reichert guy sounds like an asshole. I wish he'd come here so I could give him the finger.:finger:

Maybe her finger flipping was the last in a long list of indiscretions...

How many bus drives in that district have a record of flipping off presidents in the last 25 years? She embarrased the entire school and acted like a juvinile with her display. If she flipped off someone in traffic, bad, but not grounds for firing. Flipping off the president in front of everyone, sorry, you're gone.

The office of the presidency does deserve respect.

The one in office doesn't.

Simple as that.

It's not a choice a bus driver can make while she's under the payrole of an organization. Whether you think he deserves respect is your opinion, and in that situation she shouldn't have felt so free to fling it on everyone.

Let's just deify the m m as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

Fuck him, he's hired help. :p

I can't believe people think that flipping off the president is such a big thing. I've seen plenty of people online and in real life denegrate him to the nth degree and they don't get fired.

I don't see the difference personally. In fact, maybe he wasn't in hearing distance and that's why she opted for the visual expression of her disatisfaction with the way he's running the country.

It's not the fact that she did it, it's when she chose to make her opinions known to all. And I'm not really saying that she absolutely needed to be canned over this, I just saying that the district does have grounds to be pissed about it, and that it was inappropriate in that circumstance.

Well the kids probably couldn't see what she did if she was sitting behind the wheel of the vehicle, so there's one reason why the level of inappropriacy may not be as low as you might be suggesting.

Anyway, I don't think there's enough facts being offered for anyone to really know what happened. The act in itself I don't think was wrong, particularly if the children couldn't see.

Your country prides itself on freedom of expression etc, yet constantly the world outside sees people being crucified (in this case fired) for voicing their opinions. Maybe that's why we others find it hard to understand you lot from time to time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9th Engineer

First, losing your job is *not* an appropriate punishment for this crime.

Second, is it even a crime? And if not, why should there be any punishment at all?

Third, what's next? If you go to Africa, return to the US and voice opposition to the president, should your wife be outed as a CIA agent? Oh wait, that already happened, so it can't be "next".

Hey, I sense a pattern here...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Second, is it even a crime? And if not, why should there be any punishment at all?

My daughter rides the bus. I don't want her bus driver to be flipping anyone off while driving her around, even an asshole like Bush. But I think firing someone over that is a bit harsh. The only way I would support firing a bus driver over it would be if it was a "last straw" in a series of inappropriate behavior around kids.

I'll do my research another time, maybe.

This is a local story, one which I have followed with some interest. Some background. Reichert is a former Sherriff around here, and a respected one. He made his run for congress successfully in the 8th district (not my district--across the lake from me). He is being vigorously opposed by Darcy Burner, a political newcomer.

There have been conflicting stories about how the incidents unfolded, and my best understanding of the facts and timelines goes like this:

Bus waits for motorcade to drive by. As kids all wave out the window at Limo One, so does bus driver. Reichert notices and remarks to GWB "That ones' not a fan." Motorcade and bus continue on their merry ways.

Later...

Reichert calls the superintendent to "inform him of the situation". I have heard different timeframes for the this call from the day after to weeks after. I'm inclined to believe the shorter timeframes.

Bus driver is fired. Reasons given also vary from "giving the finger" to "unprofessional conduct" to "letting the kids see the finger". Also, reports that a case for termination had been building previous to this incident. I am inclined to believe the building case theory. I am inclined to believe that the "letting the kids see" part is like spiking the ball in the end zone. It has nothing to do with the part of the action that counts, but it's the part that makes the highlights.

The part I find hypocritical is the feed coming from the Reichert campaign where on the one hand he says he didn't get her fired and on the other hand where he boasts, implying he got her fired. The reason I chafe at these two different spins is that they're coming from the same source, Reichert, but to two different audiences. Reichert's pandering, textbook pandering. And if he'll whore himself out like this for the promise of a vote, what will he do for higher stakes once in office?

Here's a quote from the local media:

Quote:

Reichert bragged about busting bird-flipping bus driver

Posted by David Postman at 08:09 AM

As reported a few days ago, the Issaquah School District says it already knew one of its bus drivers flipped off the president by the time Congressman Dave Reichert called to complain about the June incident. Disciplinary proceedings against the driver, officials said, were already underway when Reichert called some time later. The driver had apparently bragged about giving the finger to Bush and word had gotten back to her supervisor.

I've got no reason to doubt that. But in August, Reichert boasted about busting the driver. If you were listening to Reichert at the King County Republican picnic you could be excused for thinking the driver lost her job because of his intervention:

And as the motorcade went by, the President and I drove by on I-5, the President was having a great time. He was waving at everybody, he waved at the kids. He got the biggest kick out of the kids leaning out the window to say hello to the President of the United States.

The sad part of it is though, we got to the last bus — and I won't tell you which school district this was — the bus driver flipped the President off.

So the very next day, you know what I did? I called the superintendent of that school district and that bus driver no longer works for that school.

After raucous applause, Reichert told the crowd:

That's the old sheriff part of me still around.

That comes from an audio recording I have that was made by the state Democratic Party's tracker, a cameraman who follows GOP candidates to record public appearances.

While Reichert said at the picnic he made the call the day after the president's visit, his campaign has also said it was a week later. According to KIRO TV:

Now, Reichert's campaign tells KIRO 7, Reichert called the Issaquah superintendent one week after the incident happened because it was bothering him. The district had already made their decision about the driver and they suggest this was not the first time this driver had been disciplined.

Whatever the case, district spokeswoman Sara Niegowski told KIRO, "I will confirm that Reichert was not the initial tip-off."

UPDATE: The Washington State Council of County and City Employees, which represents the bus driver, clearly suspects politics played a part in the woman's firing — particularly after reading what Reichert said at the picnic.

Union president Chris Dugovich said in a statement:

"In 25 years of this work I've never seen such a severe punishment for an inappropriate, but harmless, act. There is video on the Internet that any child can watch of the President raising his middle finger to a camera, yet a momentary gesture by a private citizen is worthy of firing?

"Why a sitting member of Congress and superintendent would get so personally involved in firing a bus driver raises many questions."

Michael Young, chairman of the King County Republican Party which sponsored the picnic, told the AP the tape is ``protected communication.''

``I'm surprised. If they have a purloined copy, they need to surrender it right away.''

The tape was made by a Democratic volunteer who attended the picnic and recorded Reichert's speech.

Coda:

Quote:

Fired bus driver finds work: Renton School District hired woman who was let go in Issaquah after flipping off Bush

Any school bus driver who flips anyone off while driving the bus should be worried about their job. You are representing the school, not to mention setting an example for the kids in the bus. Employers have the right to expect civilized behavior from the people on their payroll while those people are on the clock.

Why does every incidence of inappropriate behavior get elevated to "Watershed Moment in Freedom of Speech Debate"? She's an undisciplined child, not Rosa Parks. For what it's worth, she would have deserved the same punishment if she had honked her horn and yelled "yay!" at an anti-abortion demonstration while driving school property.

Firing might have been harsh, but it was by no means unjust. Reichert's assholery, if that's what it is, is secondary to the issue.

Another cogent analysis, imho.

Quote:

SEATTLE - I'm perplexed.

If it's appropriate for an Issaquah school bus driver to be fired for flipping off President Bush… then why shouldn't we also can the President for the digital antics that he's been caught performing in public?

I believe the Issaquah bus driver got the boot mostly because the school district got a call from Congressman Dave Reichert - who happened to be with the President at the precise moment of the finger flipping incident.

I think if it was "Johnny's dad" instead of CONGRESSMAN REICHERT who called to complain, the woman might have gotten off with some down time, minus pay.

THAT would have been justified.

As for the Prez: Much as I'd like to fire him, I'll stay consistent and suggest that he too should at least be reprimanded.

Maybe take his veto power away for a week.

I'll agree, the bus driver did something stupid, then again, the President has made a career out of doing that.

I'm hoping that Dave Reichert picks up the phone and makes another call, this one on behalf of the woman who got fired.

In the meantime, I find it interesting that the Issaquah School District holds its bus drivers to a higher standard than the people of this country hold the President.

And that leaves me perplexed.

I believe this is a freedom of speech issue.

(Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.)

She was on a school bus, presumably the school receives money from the government so therefore it is a public forum.

The bus and other traffic was stopped, therefore her giving the finger did not pose an endangerment to other drivers.

Whether the finger salute passes the obscenity test, may be debateable. One couod arague that it was seditious speech, which is not protected. (Seditious Speech and Seditious Libel .--Opposition to government through speech alone has been subject to punishment throughout much of history under laws proscribing ''seditious'' utterances. In this country, the Sedition Act of 1798 made criminal, inter alia, malicious writings which defamed, brought into contempt or disrepute, or excited the hatred of the people against the Government, the President, or the Congress, or which stirred peo ple to sedition. 90 In New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 91 the Court surveyed the controversy surrounding the enactment and enforcement of the Sedition Act and concluded that debate ''first crystallized a national awareness of the central meaning of the First Amendment. . . . Although the Sedition Act was never tested in this Court, the attack upon its validity has carried the day in the court of history . . . . [That history] reflect[s] a broad consensus that the Act, because of the restraint it imposed upon criticism of government and public officials, was inconsistent with the First Amendment.'' The ''central meaning'' discerned by the Court, quoting Madison's comment that in a republican government ''the censorial power is in the people over the Government, and not in the Government over the people,'' is that ''[t]he right of free public discussion of the stewardship of public officials was thus, in Madison's view, a fundamental principle of the American form of government.'')

I haveto go back to work , but here is a godd website with info on the first amendment: http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/c...n/amendment01/

TBC...

Is there evidence that kids actually saw her give the finger?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spexxvet

Fire this guy, too.

http://proliberty.com/observer/bush-finger.jpg

What's the story behind that picture? Never saw it before.

BTW, my neighbor uses the same dog groomer for her poodle that Bush uses for his dog in that picture. So that's Bush, dog, groomer, dog, glatt's neighbor, glatt. 6 degrees. Actually, I know the neighbor's dog, so that's 5 degrees. Chilling.

Blimey

I can't believe a driver can be fired for sticking a finger up. Using Noodle's analogy I wouldn't expect a driver to be fired for silent and unseen (by the children) support of an anti abortion rally either.

If the incident was part of serious documented complaints and the driver was on a final warning, then I can understand it. But if the driver has been immediately employed elsewhere then it sounds like oppression to me.

Respect for the office, respect for the man is neither here nor there in my opinion. I agree the act wasn't particularly eloquent, but neither does it seem to be anything more than an instinctive personal expression.

What if it had been someone from the Opposition in the cavalcade? Or a foreign leader?

What would have happened if one of the children on the bus came from a home where the current President is unpopular and had made an inappropriate gesture?

What if ALL the schoolkids made a gesture?

Surely some criticism of politicians must be allowed?

Yes, but again this isn't an issue of the action itself so much as the timing and circumstances. If she was standing on the sidewalk after school hours and flipped Bush the bird as the motorcade went by, THEN I would be screaming bloody murder if she was fired. But the employer has the right to dictate behavior while on the ticker, and MN says it very well here:

Quote:

You are representing the school, not to mention setting an example for the kids in the bus. Employers have the right to expect civilized behavior from the people on their payroll while those people are on the clock.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Surely some criticism of politicians must be allowed?

I think part of the problem is that the Bush team has spent such considerable effort making sure all dissent takes place in a "freedom of speech zone" 5 miles away from the President that they actually become shocked when confronted with any dissent.

Consider that the President is surrounded by loyal yes men. All he hears all day long is 100% agreement. Two thirds of the country disapproves of him, but he's surrounded by 100% approval all the time.

Fuck him, but I'm not that way. Even if was don't think I'd pick him.

Quote:

Noodle said: For what it's worth, she would have deserved the same punishment if she had honked her horn and yelled "yay!" at an anti-abortion demonstration while driving school property.

And what if she'd flipped them the bird instead?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

But both Bush and Cheney get a pass when they do it? Hypocrite. :flipbird:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibram

The office of the Presidency does deserve respect.

The one in office doesn't.

Simple as that.

The last one in office didn't, and didn't get my vote either time.

I was vividly reminded of just why last week when I read Dereliction Of Duty.

Simple as that, really. The anti-Bush crowd does not impress me. Dear God, their idea of their best standard-bearer was a scrub like John Forbes Kerry. They are a lot of stupid hysterics, and I'd rather they weren't in my republic. The dopes make us look bad.

Yeah, cause unprovoked aggression, using the constitution/bill of rights like toilet paper, pissing off all our allies, and torturing prisoners make us look like really swell guys, huh?

Bullshit and shallow thinking on all counts, my boy. Grow a faculty for seeing beyond leftist bullshit, then get back to me.

It'll take about ten years from right now. You're working on that baby Socialist phase.

George Bush makes you look bad, and that's a fact.

Name ONE COUNTRY in the WORLD who likes Bush.

Kurdistan. They love him.

But thats not a country...

...yet...

I like Bush because he's a lot like Reagan, and is continuing to do what Reagan did. Remember there's a difference between good and popular. Bill Clinton was very popular -- and quite bad for the Republic, as well as in other measures. The regrettable Hillary was a match for Bill -- they rather deserved each other, really.

That any majority pursues a folly does not improve the folly. It simply means all the dummies are on about the same side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

That any majority pursues a folly does not improve the folly.

Now you've got it. The last six years has proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt. :thumb2:

I'd suggest you get to like Hillary a little more UG. She may very well be your next President the way things are looking today. ;)

I hope so, that way we'll only have to put up with a Dem president for 4 years instead of 8 or more

Is that what you thought with the first Clinton?

No, take a really close look at Clinton ver 2.0's domestic policy (especially the health care stuff) and you'll see where I'm drawing my point from.