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-   -   Could our big brains come from Neanderthals? (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=12396)

rkzenrage 11-13-2006 02:55 PM

Could our big brains come from Neanderthals?
 
Could our big brains come from Neanderthals?
POSTED: 10:32 a.m. EST, November 8, 2006


http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/TECH/sci...hal.afp.gi.jpg
Scientists have been debating whether Neanderthals, who died out about 35,000 years ago, ever bred with modern Homo sapiens.

WASHINGTON (Reuters) -- Neanderthals may have given the modern humans who replaced them a priceless gift -- a gene that helped them develop superior brains, U.S. researchers reported Tuesday.

And the only way they could have provided that gift would have been by interbreeding, the team at the Howard Hughes Medical Institute and the University of Chicago said.

Their study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, provides indirect evidence that modern Homo sapiens and so-called Neanderthals interbred at some point when they lived side by side in Europe.

"Finding evidence of mixing is not all that surprising. But our study demonstrates the possibility that interbreeding contributed advantageous variants into the human gene pool that subsequently spread," said Bruce Lahn, a Howard Hughes Medical Institute researcher at the University of Chicago who led the study.

Scientists have been debating whether Neanderthals, who died out about 35,000 years ago, ever bred with modern Homo sapiens. Neanderthals are considered more primitive, with robust bones but a smaller intellect than modern humans.

Lahn's team found a brain gene that appears to have entered the human lineage about 1.1 million years ago, and that has a modern form, or allele, that appeared about 37,000 years ago -- right before Neanderthals became extinct.

"The gene microcephalin (MCPH1) regulates brain size during development and has experienced positive selection in the lineage leading to Homo sapiens," the researchers wrote.

Positive selection means the gene conferred some sort of advantage, so that people who had it were more likely to have descendants than people who did not. Lahn's team estimated that 70 percent of all living humans have this type D variant of the gene.

"By no means do these findings constitute definitive proof that a Neanderthal was the source of the original copy of the D allele. However, our evidence shows that it is one of the best candidates," Lahn said.

The researchers reached their conclusions by doing a statistical analysis of the DNA sequence of microcephalin, which is known to play a role in regulating brain size in humans. Mutations in the human gene cause development of a much smaller brain, a condition called microcephaly.

By tracking smaller, more regular mutations, the researchers could look at DNA's "genetic clock" and date the original genetic variant to 37,000 years ago.

They noted that this D allele is very common in Europe, where Neanderthals lived, and more rare in Africa, where they did not. Lahn said it is not yet clear what advantage the D allele gives the human brain.

"The D alleles may not even change brain size; they may only make the brain a bit more efficient if it indeed affects brain function," Lahn said.

Now his team is looking for evidence of Neanderthal origin for other human genes.

Copyright 2006 Reuters. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

yesman065 11-13-2006 02:58 PM

Very interesting - I really like the CYA part towards the end -
"The D alleles may not even change brain size; they may only make the brain a bit more efficient if it indeed affects brain function," Lahn said.

Flint 11-13-2006 03:32 PM

I favor the Tolkien school of human ancestry: some us are a little Dwarvish, or a little Elvish. I think we interbred ourselves into what we are now.

busterb 11-13-2006 03:49 PM

I really need to give this more thought.

Hippikos 11-13-2006 03:55 PM

http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2006/TECH/sci...hal.afp.gi.jpg

"I think, therefore I am"

glatt 11-13-2006 03:58 PM

Dude's been to the gym.

Flint 11-13-2006 03:59 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Isn't that Uncle Rico?

Bullitt 11-13-2006 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yesman065
Very interesting - I really like the CYA part towards the end -
"The D alleles may not even change brain size; they may only make the brain a bit more efficient if it indeed affects brain function," Lahn said.

That plus
"By no means do these findings constitute definitive proof that a Neanderthal was the source of the original copy of the D allele..."

Aliantha 11-13-2006 04:34 PM

I've known a few people who I would say definitely descended from Neanderthal stock!

rkzenrage 11-13-2006 04:37 PM

I have always felt that they were absorbed into sapiens. It is really the only thing that makes sense... most scientist just try to avoid making declarative statements because of the whole "caveman" stigma that still exists.
The fact is that their brains were larger than ours and the areas for higher functions were proportional (that they were not is an urban myth).

Aliantha 11-13-2006 04:39 PM

Well, I was being a smart arse actually rkz, but I see your point.

rkzenrage 11-13-2006 04:41 PM

:p

Happy Monkey 11-13-2006 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage
I have always felt that they were absorbed into sapiens.

:borg: :doit:

Tonchi 11-15-2006 06:27 PM

I do not place any credibility in this article, since two of the science/archaeology magazines I subscribe to have debunked this theory in recent issues. They said that the expert doing these studies concluded that there was little or no interbreeding (and sexual contact which did occur was probably thought of as equal to abusing your sheep or cow) and that Neandertal genes do NOT exist in our background. The same expert also concluded that the genetic markers for the development of language were MISSING from the Neandertal DNA which he has studied, and that is the best proof that we do not have their DNA carried forward in our ancestors. For all practical purposes, they were a separate although advanced species, and they died out rather than being absorbed.

The fact that somebody's uncle Herman looks like one of them is just a coincidence :rolleyes:

rkzenrage 11-15-2006 06:38 PM

I have read a recent study showing that they did have the ability for speech.

xoxoxoBruce 11-15-2006 10:02 PM

Clan of the Cave Bear. :D

Bullitt 11-15-2006 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage
I have read a recent study showing that they did have the ability for speech.

Speech is a long way from full fledged language. Do you have a link to the study's findings?

xoxoxoBruce 11-15-2006 11:57 PM

Full fledged language, or for that matter speech, isn't necessary to communicate. We're talking cave men here.
I don't think a bottle of wine and witty banter was the key to procreating. We can't assume they didn't pass genes just because they couldn't tell you to squeal like a pig. :D

wolf 11-16-2006 01:10 AM

Somebody's been watching too many GEICO commercials.

Tonchi 11-16-2006 04:01 AM

OK, glad I hadn't yet recycled this magazine: Archaeology Magazine, November/December 2006, "The Neanderthal Code". That is one of the articles I read recently. Unfortunately I would have to scan or type the long article explaining how they have extracted and analyzed the Neanderthal DNA, but here is a bit of it which explains what I said. The scientist is Dr. Svante Paabo of the Max Planck Institute (Switzerland, I think).

Quote:

Sequencing the Neanderthal genome should provide a clearer picture of how much, if any, genetic material Neanderthals passed along to us. This is why Paabo is constantly asked whether Neanderthals had sex with modern humans. If so, Multi-Regional looks better (refering to a theory explained in the article); if not, and Neanderthal genetics differ widely from that of modern humans, the Multi-Regional Evolution boat has got a hole in it.

Paabo's research is already showing differences between Neanderthals and modern humans, and he clearly backs the Out-Of-Africa theory. He is tightlipped about the subject, citing pending publications. But a report in the journal Nature states his lab has already found substantial differences between the Y-chromosomes in Neanderthals and those in modern humans - another indication that the groups did not interbreed.

skysidhe 11-16-2006 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
I don't think a bottle of wine and witty banter was the key to procreating. We can't assume they didn't pass genes just because they couldn't tell you to squeal like a pig. :D

:lol:

Bruce you crack me up.


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I don't think so much where we came. I think about where we are going and the future evolution of man.


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Hippikos 11-16-2006 11:40 AM

Quote:

This is why Paabo is constantly asked whether Neanderthals had sex with modern humans.
Well, my ex always alleged she had...

Flint 11-16-2006 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonchi
OK, glad I hadn't yet recycled this magazine...

Egad! By "recycle" you surely mean: donate to a Doctor's office or something? (Personally I stockpile mine, for future reference...)

tw 11-16-2006 12:30 PM

Geico has Neanderthal man going to his airplane for vacation. Suddenly he sees the ad - 'even a cave man could do it'. Look closely. While Neanderthal man is gapping at that ad, Cro-mangun man walks past behind him.

bluesdave 11-16-2006 05:48 PM

This report has just been released...

Quote:

BERKELEY, CA —The veil of mystery surrounding our extinct hominid cousins, the Neanderthals, has been at least partially lifted to reveal surprising results. Scientists with the U.S. Department of Energy’s Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab) and the Joint Genome Institute (JGI) have sequenced genomic DNA from fossilized Neanderthal bones. Their results show that the genomes of modern humans and Neanderthals are at least 99.5-percent identical, but despite this genetic similarity, and despite the two species having cohabitated the same geographic region for thousands of years, there is no evidence of any significant crossbreeding between the two. Based on these early results, Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis last shared a common ancestor approximately 700,000 years ago

Ibby 11-16-2006 05:49 PM

I'm sorry, I dont really want to, but let's just be friends, okay?

Clodfobble 11-16-2006 07:05 PM

Just think--hundreds of thousands of years from now, the dolphin scientists will be studying our bones and marvel: "Look, even though humans and chimpanzees shared 98% of their DNA, for some reason there doesn't seem to have been a lot of cross-breeding!"

Tonchi 11-16-2006 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint
Egad! By "recycle" you surely mean: donate to a Doctor's office or something? (Personally I stockpile mine, for future reference...)

I do not delude myself that the scientific and archaeology magazines I subscribe to would interest people in a doctor's waiting room or some clinic. They are tortured enough by all the parenting and sports magazines and Newsweeks which are two years old. I tear out the articles which apply to my field of interest/expertise, i.e., anything about Latin America and the Mediterranean/Middle East, World History, religions - well, now that I think about it, just about everything about the previous inhabitants of this world interests me - and put these clippings into expandable folders in date order. Then Waste Management gets the rest. My "stockpile" habits had already filled up my house and garage, I had to finally draw some lines :blush:

Happy Monkey 11-16-2006 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble
Just think--hundreds of thousands of years from now, the dolphin scientists will be studying our bones and marvel: "Look, even though humans and chimpanzees shared 98% of their DNA, for some reason there doesn't seem to have been a lot of cross-breeding!"

.


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