Dutch Ban Burkas
 

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The article goes on to say it really won't affect many Muslim women, maybe only 50 in the whole country, actually wear the whole kit. Therefore it would appear to me, they are making a statement that the Dutch won't allow their country to be taken over by immigrants, changing the mores and customs.

Am I getting the wrong message? If so, what do you think the message is? :confused:

No, the Dutch have taken that stance. They are probably learning by watching what is happening in Sweden (which is a thread I've been meaning to post). I believe it is the Dutch who make all immigrants purches a $75 video they are tested on that depicts men kissing and all other sorts of stuff that they may encounter in the Netherlands. Of course if your religion forbids such things how are you going to watch the tape? I see nothing wrong with it as it keeps out people who would not intergrate into their society. This seems to be another step in making immigrants integrate and keeping extremists out.

The message is: national elections next week...

From the 16 Mio inhabitants 3 Mio has no Dutch background, of which 1 Mio has a Western background from EU or US), 2 Mio non Western background, of which almost half originate from the former colonies.

Immigrants taking over?

PS: I´ve never seen any burka until now. Such a fuz over 50 women which most likely only stay at home anywayz.

*Sighs* great. Here we go. We in the West are becoming so intolerant of Moslem culture.

The whole veil/burka debate bemuses me. I understand that it seems a strange and unnatural thing to us, but there are cultures who view our insistence on covering our breasts as equally strange.

For the women raised in this particularly strict form of Islamic culture, covering up is a matter of personal modesty. If I decided tomorrow that I wanted to walk down my high street with my breasts exposed, I would almost certainly be arrested, would be considered to be inviting male attention/sexual assault and would more than likely feel naked to the world. Why? there is nothing inherently sexual about breasts; plenty of societies do not share our view on this. Yet, because we have evolved a culture where breasts are considered to be sexual in nature, women are expected (and indeed governed by law) to cover up. If as a teenager, I had decided to wear jeans and nothing else, I have, no doubt my father would have hit the roof, likewise my older brother.....and not just because of the risk of arrest.

For the women in cultures that have evolved to percieve the showing of body and face as immodest, to walk down the high street without covering up must make them feel semi-naked. Just as I would feel uncomfortable having mens' eyes roving over my breasts then so must they feel uncomfortable having those same eyes 'rove' over their face.

We have become so intolerant of this culture, that we no longer see the parrallels of our own. We see the burka and the veil in terms of male oppression and yet we live in a world where many people, male and female, are uncomfortable seeing a woman breast feed.

Muslims are intolerant of other religions and cultures and for some reason you think they should get more favorable treatment than they would give, for example, a Westerner in a Muslim country? Oh, wait. My bad. European (white) culture bad, any brown culture good. I forgot my New World Order cheat sheet.

That's not the least bit racist.

This isn't about westerners in Muslim countries. This about muslims in a western country. We supposedly pride ourselves on tolerance. Are you suggesting that because some muslim (some, not all)countries are intolerant, we should extend that courtesy to any muslim in our country? Why don't we just go the whole hog and make them all wear a red crescent?

Dana, you're not getting it. I belive in a truly level playing field. I am not ashamed of my culture and heritage, and don't think that any other person should be. There are certain things that I hold dear, including the freedom to worship (or not) as one chooses. Once a religion decides that it has a license to convert forcibly or kill from it's version of God, it's bad.

Help me out here. What part of the above am I misreading or misinterpreting?

"It is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any place and in any land. Make war on them any place that you find yourself. Any place that you meet them, kill them."

Those are some interpretations of Islam. They may even be the predominant interpretations held by leading moslem clerics. That does not mean they are shared by all moslems. In America, you will find many intolerant Christian preachers who condemn people for being homosexual and you will still find some who are anti-semitic. Does that mean we should judge all Christians this way?

Even if all moslems shared that viewpoint, in what way is that relevant to us being intolerant of them? I am intolerant of anti-semitism. I disagree with and detest the anti-semitic views of those clerics, just as I am intolerant of and detest the homophobic, misogynistic and occassionally anti-semitic views of certain Christian leaders. In what way does that make it right for me to be intolerant of other aspects of their culture or views? In what way does it balance the books that their women not be allowed to dress in the way that makes them feel comfortable?

They can absolutely expect to recieve the same level of tolerence they extend in their own contries. If you insult my friend in your house you sure as hell arn't invited into mine.

So the Dutch are trying to keep extremists out and make sure immigrants (who do not have to be accepted into the country) integrate into society. What exactly is wrong with that?

Van Gogh was an agent provocateur of the highest order, insulting everything and everybody. His murder have been used by the advocates of fear to inflate the real situation. I don´t see why we have to worry as the change of being killed by a terrorist is less than being hit by lightening. The reign of fear executed by the Bushites is deeply rooted inside many people.

All this fuz for 50 people wearing burkas completely escapes my me.

You're blaming us for the trouble with immigrants going on in Germany, France, England, Spain, etc?
You're right about the odds of a terrorist coming to get you, but the problem of immigrants not assimilating is ongoing. It's festering in the slums and ghettos every day and one day it will erupt like it has in France.

The Islamic dress issue is just a symbol of the assimilation problem and I think a statement by the government to the immigrants.... If you want to live here you must adapt to our culture, you will not force us to adapt to yours.
I may be wrong, but that's the message I get. :confused:

It's not a statement to immigrants.....it's a statement to moslems.

I would expect that it generalizes. They don't want Greeks wearing the shoes with the pom-poms on them either.

Welcome to Holland, we have 1000 years of culture, wooden shoes, tulips, art, music, and all that. It's part of of our identity.

I wouldn't go to work for McDonalds and expect to wear a hat left over from my prior experience at Burger King. When in Rome, etc. etc.

I'd be interested to knjow, but I suspect it doesn't generalise

It's probably a statement to the muslims because they're the ones causing the majority of the problems. They want to keep out trouble makers, and guess what demographic just earned itself a place in that catagory

... who want to be immigrants.

Dana C , I have not even bothered to read the above . You pose as

as...

Oh no, Dana, Buddug says you pose as! Whatever shall you do!?

a British woman all the time . You try to sell what 'we' do in Britain to the Yanks on this forum . Except that I do not see you as being part of my 'we' . I stated this fact earlier , and your sugar-sweet coating soon disolved . I think you told me to destroy my private ( British) organs on a sharp stick ?

I think that you and your ilk are part of a Trojan horse which menaces the free world .

I sure hope Dana's a better representative of you lot than you are, buddug.

Jesus Christ, just ignore the thing. Trolls should be entertaining, at least. There is literally nothing to see here. Move along...

Aww, but its so fun tearing it limb from limb, over and over and over and over and over!

Dana is a Muslim who lives in Britain . There is no such thing as a British Muslim . Muslims put the idea of nationality behind their idea of being French / American / British or whatever . They see us as impure whilst enjoying the priveliges that our civilization offers them . They try to destroy our system from within .

We have to understand this ( geez , I even feel friendly towards bloody Americans within this context )

When people are forced to give up part of their belief system, they are being asked to give up part of themselves.

We live in a time where culture is being destroyed faster than ever before.

Every 6 minutes a dialect is erased from the face of the earth.

How much faster must this process become?

yeh, but there's no challenge in easy-meat.....


as to Dana's viewpoint, I'm not sure I see eye to eye with it.

We should be free to dress as we like? Perhaps...... but when was the last time you got into....

a nightclub wearing trainers?

a bank wearing a crash-helmet?

a shopping mall wearing a hoodie?

DanaC poses as British , has always posed as British , and she aint British . She be a mad muslim .

The only one of the above three you can't do here is go into a bank wearing a helmet, but who goes into banks these days anyway? ;)

Jesus, buddug, you think youre racist/discriminatory/bigoted enough?

Indeed . Listen to the the left wing champagne socialists . When they start curling their tolerant lips , the mood tends to swing .
I am a champagne socialist myself . I can put up with a great deal . As an idealist , and a high earner , I accept high taxes .
I do not accept wolves dressed as sheep who try to destroy our civilization from within .

And I am not going to accept the Koran in Europe , full stop .

@ ali...... all three are proscibed over here.


And that's the whole point..... differrent cultures proscribe diffrent things.
No one culture is 'right'.

And my tolerant mind knows how to detect the 'soft' intolerance that people like Dana C try to twist us into accepting , through our fine laws of freedom .

Yeah, wouldnt want those damn dirty towelheads having those putrid, twisted civil rights or that nasty freedom of religion, huh?

It's only our 'fine laws of freedom' that tolerate your bigoted postings, bluddug. Rascist postings are of course illegal and I will shop you in an instant...

I am an educated European woman . I aint no hick . It has pained me to have to come to these conclusions . To protect myself , and the free world , I have to say NO . And yet I was brought up in the intellectual tradition of always wondering why .
Put my head at the post , tell me you will kill me because I am immoral , fuck me I will tell you that you are wrong . And you are wrong .

Wrong for supporting freedom, human rights, and equality?

Fuckin' bullshit. There is no such thing as too much freedom when it does not hurt others.

I prefer the Enlightenment to religious obscurity . Every time .

Hmmmm...hasn't the Koran been in Europe for a long time now? Pretty much since Muslims were taken as slaves by Europeans?

Buddug, you disgust me more than ever now. There is NO justification for discrimination or racism.

Aliantha , you are charming in your way , but you have no idea of history .

Ibram , not only do you have a suspiciously foreign name ....

mmmmmm...... was that offer to fuck you genuine? perhaps we can meet up sometime... do you have a mobile number I can call?

A.) 'Ibram' isn't even my name, and B.), even if it were, SO FUCKING WHAT? Does having a foreign name automatically make someone's opinions and facts invalid?

xenophobe.

So people taken as slaves out of Africa by British ships were never Muslim?

On the whole, no.

Most slavers hit Africa well south of the Muslim north

It is true that some Muslims were brought into Europe by slave ships though isn't it?

According to a quick google it would seem so.

One tends to overlook the 'mc's and the 'macs' . They try too hard , and they tend to elucidate only the brewers' droop , alas .

Bloody hell , Aliantha , if you really want to know , the Muslim slavers in Africa are reponsible for a far greater movement of people than the Europeans . You may also be interested to know that slavery was banned in Saudi Arabia as late as the 1960's .

Be wary of them Muslims .

They have rules , not thought . They are dangerous for us .

I'm aware of that thank Buddug. What I'm suggesting is that, even if 'on the whole' slaves weren't retrieved from Northern Africa, there is no way to discount the likelihood of Muslims having been taken as slaves by British slavers. Therefore, the Koran was brought to Britain and Europe by British and European means.

And they are trying to make us accept their rules in our free world .

NO . No . NO .

Aliantha , Europe was in contact with Islam via Spain in the middle ages . The Spaniards had the good sense to kick them out for once and for all in 1492 . Boabdil was sent to weep in the Alpujarras .

No, YOU are trying to make THEM accept YOUR rules in EVERYONE's free world.

If they want to live by a different moral code and are NOT HURTING YOU, then they should have all the right in the world to do so.

Funny how they keep hurting us though , innit ? Funny like what them really nice Muslims everyone seems to have fer tea , never EVER say they disapprove . Funny that . Never any sort of blanket disapproval from all those MODERATE MUSLIMS . Never any official stamp of shame . And yet we are expected to stagger on and be fine and honorable saying stuff like ' Islam is about peace '? Islam seems to be more about pieces of body than peace .

... and smooth talking people like Dana C who hide their background and talk about 'we' are slowly establishing Islam in the United Kingdom , within the protection of our laws .

Dana C sees you and I as impure cockroaches , by the way .