The Double-Standard Rant
 

Most women love to talk a line of shit about the holy importance of “communication” until one tries to have a frank conversation about this little gem.
Suddenly, they really don’t like to talk much… in fact English really is not their first language and you are not coming in very clearly... lots of interference, what was your name again?
Broaching this subject is never easy, most, fairly intelligent ladies can see it coming a mile away and will try one of a few tried-&-true tactics to stay a safe distance away from it (it is similar to that of raw weapons-grade enriched uranium).
Most are variations of brining up some infraction you may, or may not, have had/done ten years ago involving sox and the living room that, now, traumatized her to the point of removing weeks of her life and needs discussing quickly. Other, less intelligent women (though this tactic is not only for them… all find it fun sometimes), will just get pissed, have no logical reason for it and start a fight to avoid it.

So, guys, let’s talk…
How is it that no matter what you say or do to mitigate this, women seem to turn every damn thing in life into a game?
Say “this” then do it, right? That is the way it is.
There is no need for anything else, is there? Anything else is a game, and games are for children.
The big one for me is that women play this game of “I’m not going to tell you what I want, you are supposed to read my mind and just KNOW”.
“If you don’t, you are a bad boyfriend/husband/whatever and you OWE ME”.
Bullshit.
Chicks honestly expect guys to spend energy and time thinking about what they want without imput. Many want to blame Disney, etc, for some kind of “happily ever after” bullshit. NOT! It is just selfish behavior and nothing else. It is a control game and should not be played guys. Once you give into it one time, you are fucked.
My wife still tries this shit and we are in our 17th year. “If you wanted me to do/get that you should have said something” is something she hears fairly often. Then she pouts and I act like I don’t see it while I wait for her to get over it. I am still VERY confused by this.
Ladies, NO ONE can read your mind and NO ONE should ever spend one second trying to.
You are NOT a goddess or princess, you are a partner in a relationship, he is equally as important and special and should be treated as such. The more you try to get treated like you are better than him, the more he is going to fight it. (& should)
The more you treat him the way you want to be treated, the more he will do the same for you… sound familiar?
Know when I treat her like a goddess and princess (which is quite a bit)? When she does not act like a spoiled brat who should have her whims answered before she has them.
There is NEVER a case of “you should have known”.
The worst is when chicks will say something like “no honey, I don’t mind if you do that” then later pitch a fit or pout because he was “supposed to know” that she really did mind and he was supposed to be able to read the fucking alien signals emanating from the psycho chip in her brain.
If they do this guys, don’t even pack your clothes.

Guys are often asked to take meds, get surgery, go to therapy, etc, etc, etc, to be more sensitive lovers, better lovers and deal with the mid-life change in sex-drive that is normal for men so they can continue to please their women on a regular basis and how they like, even though it is perfectly natural to have a lower sex drive after 35-40.
(But, we are assholes if we are not “understanding” of their change of life and would be beheaded if even entertained the thought of asking them to do anything about it in ANY way… hell it is female and therefore of the Goddess and should be celebrated. “Wheeee! An overheated, frigid, crazy-person who is turning into her mother is in my home, how lucky can I get!!!!”… this is really why a lot of guys upgrade younger later in life)
However, when it is time to discuss what day you get your blowjob during the week, you are the biggest asshole in the world. Yup, a world-class Neanderthal! Same thing, but somehow, if we ask for some reciprocal sexual consideration (that does not even require medical intervention) we are the male inquisition!!!

Finally, the listening thing, guys, how many times have you listened to her talk about her feelings for an hour only to have her then be “done”?
She was then “too fragile”, or some other bullshit, to give you the same loving consideration & listen to your feelings and perspective?
Does trying to “pick it up tomorrow” really cut-it?
You know the answer to that.
It is not her needing to communicate, it is emotional battery & a tactic, “I am going to unload on you, giving this only my perspective, emotional validation, and I will be the only one to get closure; while you get to swallow any unresolved feelings and pain in this situation to fester… have a good night”.

There are more examples, but I am sure you get the idea.
My marriage is a great one and I am very happy in it, especially since I am an asshole about this and have no Male Guilt.
I do not feel it is any harder to be a woman in a relationship than it is to be a man & do not treat the relationship in that way, ever. We are equals.
If someone chooses to communicate in a difficult manner it is because they are hiding something or they are confused, either way it is not my fault and I am not going to own it unless it is me.
I will bring it to their attention, after that I wait, my conscience clear.
My wife is awesome about saying “yup, I was playing games and it was stupid. I should have just told you what I wanted”. It is a HUGE part of why I fell for her and love her more every day. She is the only woman I have ever met that plays games as little as she does and the only one I have ever met that admits it when she does.
I am amazingly lucky and try to deserve it every day! I suck at it, but I work.

I am not saying this is all relationships are made-up of, or that all have all of this all, or even any of the time… but these are common and a pervasive double-standard does exist.
If a women does deem to discuss it, which is rare, most try to pull some kind of Male Guilt crap as the reasoning.
Yes, yes, it is very hard to be a woman & that has nothing to do with this.
Men have no reason to feel guilty about being pissed about this double-standard when it is evident and have no reason for putting-up with it.
Rant over(ish).

Wow, that was a rant.

For the most part, I agree. Games are dumb. Communication is the key to a good relationship. Communication takes two.

I always call bullshit, and have it called on me. My wife and I are kooks, but quickly resolve things and move on. No time for illogic.

Good on ya' Flint!!! More need to join tha' brotherhood!

Among the things my father taught me, I hold highly that one should never tolerate bullshit, or go into management.

I am a woman, and I agree for the most part, too.

I hate games, and I don't think anyone should have to try to read my mind. I do not nag if I don't get the desired result because I was lax in expressing my wants.

I consider myself the anti-nag. There is a lot of talk in other threads about nice guys being dismissed or taken advantage of by women, but that road goes both ways.

There is a happy medium between constantly trying to pull your partner's teeth (so to speak) and namby-pambily going along with everything.

I have a deep-seated disrespect for anyone who plays games. It's so unnecessary. With all my faults, I am what I am, nothing more nothing less.

I like this thread for the chance to talk about the game players in all our lives.

Others?

Good on ya' too!!!
BTW, I have my games (we all do) and love the fact that she calls me on it when I do slip-up. I hate them and want to do all I can to eliminate them from my life, all the help I can get from those who love me is MOST welcome.

A metaphor for games: when games are being played, and the ball gets tossed to me, I just stand there and let it hit me, and fall to the ground. Then, I don't even look at it, and I just walk off. Whatever somebody else wants to do with that ball is not my concern.

Ellsworth Toohey: Why don't you tell me what you think of me.
>>>>>>>Howard Roark: But I don't think of you.

More aggressive game-players, that can't be avoided, get the "judo" treatment. Their own momentum becomes harmful to themselves.

I think of it more like they make-up their own rules so they are the only ones that "win" and they think that they can keep everyone playing with them and not walking-off leaving them all alone.
Unfortunately, this seems to be the case for reasons that are really baffling me.

I have never been willing to play any of those games. It's cost me a few relationships - none that I mourn over.

Now THAT is full-on crazy. That someone would let you leave them instead of just saying what they mean.

If you can't say it in a way that makes sense, then it doesn't make sense.

True dat'! Unless you are three and very tired... that is a language I do NOT want to learn.

I know that I am not perfect, but don't play games on purpose. I too like being called on it when I am being unreasonable. Not in a "you stupid bitch" kind of way (ah, memories) but in a "oh COME ON!" kind of way.

I'd say you guys have very lucky wives/sig others.

I never call anyone stupid, heard that my whole life.
I will call "bitch" in a very reasonable way if it is the third time or so that I have pointed the game out, as in... "you are starting to be a bitch about this, any idea why?"
Thanks for the compliment, that was very kind of you! You seem cool as well.

Yeah, I view bitching as a verb as different than being a bitch. As with any word, it's context. I can joke with friends "you bitch" but I was talking about abusive behavior.

Amazing how words can hurt.

You are cool as well :)

Game playing sux. I just asked my husband if he thinks I ever do it and he says never, although he did point out that I sulk, but he always knows what I'm sulking about. He also added that it doesn't usually last long.

Well my pet peeve about "communication" is not being taken at my word. I'm an introverted kind of guy -- INTJ if you want to get specific. If I don't have anything to say about something, I don't have anything to say. If I decide that I don't have an overwhelming desire to do something, but I've decided I'm going to do it (for whatever reason), you're going to have to be satisfied with that and not continue to try to convert me into a zealot. If I say I don't care what color the living room is painted, then I really don't have a preference.

Yes, yes, Steve, absolutely.
I do not want to hear any sentence starting with, "I thought you really meant...." :rar:

you asked him the emotional equivalent of "do these pants make my ass look fat?" of course, he would say no. everyone plays games of a sort, at times. the only two ways that can work long term are A) if both partners enjoy the game and find that their games are compatible, B) if the relationship is honest enough that each partner is confident in their ability to throw the bullshit flag as game playing becomes evident.

So the question you have to ask is, "which category explains my relationship?"

Some of us are.

Lol... preach on sister!

;)

Well, I am also one of those women that doesn't like to play games. I can be unclear about things and then expect him to know, but if he points that out to me I am more than happy to take the responsibility for it. That is pretty much the extent of my accidental game playing. We both will call bullshit on the other if there is any games being played.

If I have a problem with something, I will tell him. And if I am not clear about it then I won't let myself be upset about it. It was my own fault in that case. We are all human and make mistakes.

The only thing that gets to me is if I say "honey, would you please take out the trash?" or something similar and he says yes but then doesn't do it for several days in a row. :thepain: If he knows he isn't going to do it, he should say so, and I tell him as much. But lately he has been really stressed so I let things like that slide. I wouldn't be thinking very clearly if I was him, so I can't expect him to be super-human.

Communication is key, as I always say. Pretty much every time we have been upset with the other one is when there was a lack of communication. But practice makes perfect! :D

lookout, I don't think you can make that judgement call on my realtionship. Hubby and I tend to be honest with each other about what's pissing us off and game playing doesn't come into it in any way.

I already knew I didn't play mind games, but I asked him for his perspective and got the answer I expected.

Why is it hard to believe there'd be no game playing?

Guys can get distracted easily...

sorry, didn't mean to insult. i'm just saying that, at times, everyone slips into a game, whether intentionally or not. healthy relationships are relationships where it is ok to throw the BS flag. it's possible that you and i have different definitions of game playing as well.

Keep in mind it's also possible to slip into an "anti-game game." For example: Husband leaves dirty clothes on the floor. Wife gets pissed, Husband accuses her of playing games because she can't "expect him to read her mind," she should have asked him to pick up his clothes if that's what she wanted. Except it is a known fact that Wife never wants clothes left on the floor, thus Husband is intentionally playing dumb by requiring her to ask before he'll take action on his own.

Clearly communicating what you want is one thing, but shouldn't there be a limit as to how many times you have to communicate it before the other person is expected to remember it?

That's easy.....once. After that, they may forget to do it, but never...ever...claim they didn't know what you want. Ever. :cool:

Ok...here's how we handle the clothes on the floor issue.

Hubby left clothes lying around the floor before he knew me.

Clothes lying on the floor is no issue for him, but it pisses me off.

Should he have to pick up his clothes just to please me when for himself it doesn't matter?

Mostly he doesn't. He just leaves them in a pile next to his side of the bed. Now and then he surprises me by putting all his clothes away and that's always nice and he does it for my benefit not his.

My thoughts on this: Why should he have to change the way he's always been just for my benefit? Do they harm me on the floor? Nope. Does he leave them all over the house? Nope, just next to his bed. Is it nice when he does decide to clean them up? You bet it is. Do I expect it to ever be done? Not on my life.

I don't expect him to be perfect or to read my mind. If one of us is unhappy with something we say so and we never EVER argue about something that was an issue the last time we had an argument. To me, that's a lot healthier than hanging onto other shit from the past and using it as ammo next time you get pissed off with one another.

Do I think our relationship is perfect? Not for anyone else, but for us it is. :)

n.b. Perfect doesn't mean that we don't have issues, just that the way we work them out works perfectly for us, and that's what being in a relationship is all about as far as I'm concerned. If you expect it to be all peaches and cream you should also expect it to end right about the time the endorphins stop floating around and it's time to seriously consider where things are going.

I could have written this post :) !

Maybe I'm a little more jaded and cynical than the next guy, but here's my two cents:

Is it possible that part of the game is searching for things to get bent out of shape over? I say this as a person that tended to be way more orderly than the ex was, and one of my consolation prizes after she left was that when I clean, it tends to stay clean, unlike when she was around.

But this example doesn't strike me as some sort of anti-game. At its core, it's still the same bullshit: One or the other isn't living up to the other's expectations, and rather than just saying so, the situation gets wrapped up in posturing and passive manipulation.

Off to go find my flame-retardant jumpsuit, just in case.

-disenchanted.

Well, speaking of games, why is the toilet seat supposed to be down? Is that a law of nature or something?

And here is a conversation I had about 35 years ago, before I was married:

She: "What would you do if I said I never want to see you again?"

Me: "[looking at watch] Well, it is about 10:30, so in about an hour and a half I will go to lunch."

Never saw her again, thank goodness.

Disclaimer: This was not an actual example from my relationship, just a completely fabricated scene.

I agree, that was my point--though the Husband in the scenario is making a point about how he is "refusing to play games," he is in fact still playing his own game.

We had a new toilet installed recently and I got one of those wooden seats to go on it. For some reason it wont stay up unless you hold it up, so that works out pretty well for me being the only girl in our household. :)

It works out well until one of the males is standing there just trying to take care of business, and the seat falls down and injures him.

(FWIW, my "solution" to the seat up/down controversy is to religiously put down the seat. And the lid.)

Well if they're short enough to have their willy right at the point of impact, they're probably too short to be lifting the lid anyway. ;)

I do the lid too... pisses her off... we both stay pissed-off about the toilet that way. Stalemate.
(plus it helps keep the germs from reaching the toothbrush and towels...at least to my little brain)

It is supposed to be down because chicks can't seem to remember to check it before sitting and they fall in... which is DAMN FUNNY!

Oh hell, the toilet seat issue was fixed for me when I shattered my knoeecap many years ago. I couldn't stand up long enough to "do my business" so I started sitting down. Now I still do given the chance. C'mon guys take a seat and take a load off.





yes, I know. Let 'em fly!

I don't get the toilet seat issue...here's why:

If you BOTH put down BOTH the seat and the lid, you BOTH have to lift something in order to do your business. Fair for everyone, and the reason there is a lid is so you don't have to stare into the toilet everytime you go into the bathroom if you choose not to.

There are two fair solutions to the toilet question. The best answer is to put the lid down. That's what it's for. The second best, but equally fair solution is to take care of business and then walk away without doing anything to the seat. Statistically speaking, everyone will be inconvenienced the same that way. When the guy walks up to the toilet after the woman has gone, he will have to lift the seat. When the woman walks up after the guy, she will have to lower the seat. Sometimes the guy will be sitting, and the woman won't have to do anything. It all evens out.

But you should really close the lid. Especially if you have kids in the house.

Ah, but -- if shit molecules settle on nearby surfaces, then closing the lid will expose one to more than twice as many shit molecule encounters.

Your method two, each puts the seat into whatever configuration they need, one has a 50-50 chance of touching one "area", the seat.

Your method one, one must always lift the lid, 100%, and then men must also lift the seat an increased number of times. One must also close the lid thus encountering another shit molecule event. Unfair to all, but even more unfair to men.

Method three, therefore: the lid is always down, but the men pee in the sink. This, all should agree, is the most equitable arrangement.

As far as I know, neither me nor any of my significant others tended to spray shit molecules all over outside toilet surfaces. :p

Anyway, ladies, just have yellow carpet installed in the bathroom since seat up or seat down they can't hit the damn hole anyway.;)

I thought it was the shower.

I'll never get all this stuff straight.....

Well yeah, but that is why if he does it two days in a row I don't particularly care. But if it gets to 3 or more (generally speaking) you can't ignore it because it smells up the apartment. That is why I want it gone. So I almost always take it out myself if he lets it go that long.

Part of the problem is I don't want to nag, so I can't really remind him because he might think I am nagging. :worried: I usually remind him two days in a row (once a day) and after that if it doesn't happen I take it out myself (unless it is super heavy for some reason) and tell him I took it out. He will then usually say he is sorry, he really meant to do it, but it is just annoying to me sometimes. No big deal really.

If I at home and I ask him to do it and he doesn't, then I start getting ready to take it out and he usually does it for me. But we work slightly different schedules so most of the time I say something in passing or the night before. So I am not really surprised that he forgets. I just can't stand the smell of old garbage... :greenface

Oh, and just so you know since we live in an apartment complex we have to walk two buildings over to take out the trash. If all I had to do was walk outside I would take the trash out myself and not bother him. But carrying it all that way isn't fun for me, and since I do 90% of the cleaning in the apartment taking out the trash became his chore to help out so I don't feel taken advantage of. :)

TheOnion:
 

Doen't matter how far....if he said he would, he should. ;)

A urinal in every house!

Keeping the lid down keeps shit molecules in the shitter. If you flush with the lid up, the shit molecules get on your toothbrush and stuff - eewwwwww! So, if you want to leave the lid up, don't flush. :worried:

That's OK, I clean the toilet with my toothbrush anyway...EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.

My brother stopped by the other night and commented that you could tell a guy didn't live there because there was a pretty-fuzzy-toilet lid cozy...which men hate because I guess it causes the seat to fall down. :)

Women should hate it more, cause it gets peeed on more.:D

Fuzzy toilet lids are of the devil.

I can almost understand you (wonderful) dudes missing the toilet and hitting the floor, but now you're saying you hit the lid that's up too? Do you have any control of those things whatsoever? Is it like trying to hold onto a fire hose? Can you get some friends to help your aim? :rolleyes:

Fuzzy lids do not stay up... they perform no function, other than negative ones, like looking stupid and slamming down..

The trick is to ask him right as he's leaving the house ("Will you take out the trash on your way out?"). If the trashbag is full the night before, I tie it up and leave it by the door--so if I forget to ask, it's usually noticed and gets taken out anyway.

Yup, don't give him a chance to get distracted.

When me and Judah lived together, housework was a constant bone of contention. I eventually got sick of asking, nagging, pleading, sulking,making a joke of, asking nicely; none of which resulted in anything but the most desultary attempt on his part. He wold wash pots and they'd need washing again.....he would tidy up by shoving everything that was not on a shelf into the one creaking drawer.

I tried to play the "right, let's see how long it takes for him to get sick of the mess and never having any clean plates" trick.....I quietly went on strike. After a week and a half I couldn't take it any more and cleaned up. he didn't notice.

But.....when my eczema went crazy and my hands were cracked and sore,and any dust set my eyes streaming: he washed up, he hoovered and did the dusting etc. He still didn't spot when things needed doing, but if i started to do a task, he'd leap up and take over....or if I asked him he'd do it without arguing, just as soon as his programme had finished.

:P

What's really funny, is that now we are no longer living together, he has turned into a clean freak and I live in a mess :P

I suppose what really irks me is that for any task that is regular but not daily (i.e. do some laundry, fill the coal hod or kindlers bucket) I have to ask. (Best Beloved does notice when he can fit nothing more in the bin and takes out the trash at that point.). If you can have "do the dishes" on a daily check list, why not "Check status of hod, bucket and laundry basket" too?
Is there really a biological difference which means that women notice that these things need doing and men don't?
And, in case you're wondering, I ask BB to do these things as politely as though we hadn't already agreed they are part of his responsibilities, and as though I hadn't already asked him to do it without me asking (i.e. no mind reading expected).

!! don't kneel while peeing, eh?

Or is it just that big? :eek: