oh! youre a feminist? how cute!
 

has the feminist movement set back the plight for male / female equality?

No. The feminist movement opened the doors for entire generations of women.

It depends on whom you are talking about, which feminist, IMO.
If they treat men as the "them" in an Us & Them philosophy, yes, it is harmful.

Feminism =/= Equality.
Feminists think women are BETTER THAN men.

I don't think all feminist do.

So, you are a feminist, Ibram, judging by your posts in where is sex?

Perhaps. But those strong minded feminists were going up against a strong male chauvinistic attitude back during the heyday of feminism a couple decades ago. Men and women are far more equal today as a result.

As a woman, I am supposed to be a "feminist." I am not. It's one thing for women and men to be given equal pay for equal work ... they should be and the reasons are so obvious as to not require discussion. There are, however, biologically based differences in terms of physical strength, brain functioning, problem solving methodology, and so forth. It has apparently become heresey to point these sorts of things out, as evidenced by the public flaying of the president of Harvard a year or so ago.

Yup. Men and women are different.

Ditto what Wolf said. I'm a woman...but I completely understand that there are some things that men can do that I can't...whether it's because they are physically stronger or that's just the way they were made...there are things that women can do that men can't, like having babies, etc...we'll never be equal. I don't know much about the feminist movement and all that, mostly because I don't care enough to know... my world is still the same.

I'm not sure it opened any doors as much as it opened some eyes. I don't know any men went scrambling around opening locked doors over a Helen Reddy song. But I do know some men that stopped opening doors after that song.

The feminist movement has been integral to many small victories for women across the world. Just keep in mind that until Greer (a woman whom I hold in fairly deep disdain) started burning bras etc, women had far fewer rights. I don't necessarily condone some of her actions or opinions, however, because I believe it takes the point of view from extremes in any discussion to enable us to find a middle ground, her actions and those of her cronies has helped women across the world.

Obviously the fight for women's rights began long before Greer's time. Probably the most important movement was when women lobbied successfully to be allowed a vote and therefore participation in the political process, and some sense of self determination over the course of their lives in conjunction with the country in which they live.

Do I consider myself a feminist? Nope. I like having gentlemen open doors for me and all those other nice things. I enjoy being a wife to my husband and taking care of the house and kids etc. At the same time though, I enjoy a large degree of autonomy within the household and in my country. As a woman, I believe this is because of the ardent feminists who have paved the way for a better future and greater rights for women world wide.

I don't think this is a detrimental thing for male and female equality. Women and men will always have roles that the majority of people find acceptable. The point of the womens movement is to cater for those of us, both male and female, who want to have the right to do things outside the normal sphere. Sure this causes discomfort for some neanderthals (both male and female) but in my very personal opinion, that's their own problem.

...like stand on the bed and pee out the window (like me pappy always said)

I actually had to be retrained to allow a man to do that. It was difficult.

I have now been retrained to accept graciously having someone pay for meals and movie tickets. It doesn't suck. There is a lot to be said for an old fashioned sort of gentleman.

I have probably told this story here before. I was with some friends for a movie night. We were watching MST3K, and as usual, coming up with better lines than Tom, Crow, and Joel. I think it was War of the Colossal Beast ... whichever movie they spoofed, it was the one with the short about three women going to college to study one of the three acceptable fields for women ... home economics (the other two, of course, being teaching and nursing). A young woman (in her early 20s) was watching it. She found the short beyond absurd, and was insisting that it must have been made up. It was a head-ripping experience for her to find out that it was real.

We've come a long way, baby.

Being an "I can do it myself" kind of person, I must concede that men are better at lifting heavy objects.

I think a man opening the door is just polite, and it's impolite to act as if it's a woman's right and not thank him. No different than how I make sure doors don't slam in the face of people who are behind me or other similar situations.

Modern chivalry is a good thing. Men should open doors and kill the bugs.

Yet somehow require legislation...

Yeah, men are better at everything. We rule! :rolleyes: :p

Spanky: Let's start a club right now. The He-man Woman-haters. I'll be president.
Alfalfa: And I'll be second president, and you can be third president.
Buckwheat: Thanks.
Spanky: Alright, get up and do exactly what I do. Put your hand on your heart, and raise your other hand. We, the He-man Woman-haters club...
Alfalfa and Buckwheat: We, the he-man woman-haters club...
Spanky: ...promise not to fall for this Valentine's business...
Alfalfa and Buckwheat: ...promise not to fall for this Valentine's business...
Spanky: ...because girls are the bunk.
Alfalfa and Buckwheat: ...because girls are the bunk.

I do consider myself a feminist. I also like it when a man opens a door or pulls out a chair. I do not see chivalry and feminism as mutually exclusive. The opening of doors and the pulling out of chair is is not an indication that men have traditionally seen women as weak and frail and in need of looking after and protecting. The roots of that tradition are in courtly love, whereby a man would swear himself a servant to the woman, the object of his desire. The term for this type of behaviour was gentilesse.

I dated a woman who loaded luggage at Orlando airport. This was when I was still in pretty good shape. We worked-out together, she benched the same 250 as I.
She, sometimes, let me pay for all the date and always let me open doors for her (not the car door, unless we were on a date), unless she was in a hurry. She was a beautiful lady and not "butch" at all. Just physical. Though it is the norm, women can do whatever a man can do.
However, I dislike the whole man-hating feminism as well just as much as I dislike objectifying women on a personal level.

The problem with feminism.....as with any movement, is that it was and is made up of people. One person's feminism may not match another's. As with any movement, there was a particularly extreme wing, which also happened to be the most vocal and therefore defined the movement for those who observed from outside.

I am glad we had that extreme wing, shouting and marching, even though I disagree with many of their views. It was necessary; the quiet approach which had prevailed for most of history was taking an awfully long time to have any effect. I would not have the freedoms I now have, had they been quiet and conciliatory.

Another thing to bear in mind, when considering the main feminist movement, is the anger and frustration felt by many of the people involved. To be denied equality is an unpleasant thing. To be treated as less able, capable, worthwhile and important than another person merely because of an accident of birth is unpleasant. When people become angry and frustrated and sensitized to the unfairness that governs so much of their lives and range of opportunities; when someone discovers that their natural talents, desires, ambitions and proclivities, are not catered to by their proscribed place in society, and then track back a thousand years and find the roots of that unfairness spread through every part of their society and history, it can result in a rather extreme reaction.

Interestingly, many of the same accusations which were levelled at the feminists of the 70s were also levelled at the suffragettes who fought for the vote in Britain. They were accused of being man haters, lesbians, women who were unnatural in that they wanted to take male roles etc etc.Even now, at a political meeting recently, when a speaker read extracts from a book she'd written about some local suffragettes, there were people arguing that they had gone too far and should not have resorted to the tactics they used.

Are women in Britain paid closer to men than they are in the US?

Depends on the industry or sector. Many sectors have extreme disparity. Even with some industries getting a handle on it, there is a massive disparity in the kinds of jobs women do and men do, and the wages commanded by the jobs women do more of, are lower than those commanded by the jobs men tend to do.

i wonder how much of the suppression of women over the years is down to the catholic church?

Some. But in fairness to the Catholic Church (and believe me that's not something you'll hear from me very often) they are far from unique in their approach to womens' roles.

yeah sorry, i was being typically Western. ;)

500 or a 1000 years ago every thing was male dominated. Please don't try to lay this on the Catholic church. This planet was originally dominated by the physically strong species and the only way to survive was to be faster , stronger and better. Now that those rules no longer apply - the situation must and has changed. There can be no real equality though. We are after all different.

Care to explain that?

Hmm, I think thats a loaded question. I'll try to rephrase this way - men and women are different - physically, biologically, physiologcally - we are opposites of the same species.

Please do not take my comment to mean that women or men are superior to the other. I was being somewhat fecisious. I believe that women and men - red, white, green or blue - should be paid for the function which they perform - period. Gender should have no basis on the amount someone makes.

so you agree that a woman shouldnt be allowed to become a priest? how about a female pope? or even a black female pope? Herr Ratzinger would have a heart attck ... with any luck.

*grins*

Oh my no, I never said anything like that at all - please don't put words in my mouth. I said that this inequality was NOT the fault of the Catholic church - thats all, nothing more.

In fact I think I clearly stated that "since those rules no longer apply that the situation must and has changed." Please don't misconstrue what I meant. If it was unclear I apologize.

youre right, i did put words in your mouth. for that i apologise. however, given the history and recent actions of the church, i stand by what i said previously. in christianity, the church has undoubtedly kept women down and erm .... out ... in the kitchen. if thats where a woman [i]chooses[i] to be, thats fine and dandy. if its not, its oppression.

Thats a nice distinction.

Unfortunately, after the fights of the 70s and 80s, we ended up in a situation (I think this has settled down again into something more balanced though) where women who chose to do exactly that felt (and possibly were) looked down on by other women.

I think women are now in a situation where they have to get an education and join the workforce. To me that leaves the most important task of raising their children, our future generations, to hired help. IMHO - that sucks. Thats just my 2 cents though. Typically, but NOT ALWAYS, women are far better at that than their male counterparts.

That's false. They don't have to do anything. They are now in a situation where they can choose. Much of our society promotes materialism, so people feel they need both parents working to keep up with the Joneses, but if you lower your standard of living, you can survive on one income.

Also, men who stay at home with the children usually do a bang up job.
My brother and his wife share the task pretty much equally. Now that she's a qualified nurse, he's scaled down his working day in order to take account of the girls' needs.

They are very well brought ujp girls and happy. They have a close relationship with both parents. Not every woman who chooses to have a career leaves their children with the help.

This got past me on first reading. Get an education? No wonder so many kids are screwed up if their mothers are selfishly educating themselves instead of raising their babies. Women are so much better at raising babies than men, they should leave the education to men.

My ex didn't do a very good job of taking care of our sons when I was working (something he had a problem doing).

I think there IS pressure on women to do everything including having a job, study, raise kids and do the house. This is one of the things the womens movement has to answer for. They said we could do it all, which most of us can. Just not all at the same time in my opinion. It puts far too much pressure on a woman to be everything if she happens to be married to a man who doesn't realize how much 'work' she actually does.

In my opinion (which can be supported by research), these unrealistic expectations have had a huge influence on the rising divorce rate in society today.

Oh I would totally agree. The myth of 'superwoman' has a lot to answer for.

Feminist are just like every other moment. Their intention is good and the majority of the people in the group are good but the extremists ruin it for everyone. I can't help but hate the label "feminist" after some experiences.

I am having difficulties writing today - I meant FEEL they have to - instead of being in a position. . . oh never mind - Ali said it better.

What church is that?:confused:

Thank you. ;)
My girls rock, whether that's my doing or not *shrug*.

Although some feminists really get my goat, they've helped free us all. Pete and I were able to choose to have her work for good pay while I did the kid/house stuff instead of her staying home and trying to stretch my tiny paychecks. Now I get to see what women used to have to go through trying to get their careers back on track. The good news is, I'm better prepared to do the work now.

christian, muslim, jewish etc ... choose one. theyre all pretty much the same., imo.


"As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active power of the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of a woman comes from defect in the active power...." Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica,Q92, art. 1, Reply Obj. 1
"And a man will choose...any wickedness, but the wickedness of a woman...Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die" Ecclesiasticus, 25:18, 19 & 33. 1
"And I find more bitter than death the woman, whose heart is snares and nets, and her hands as bands: whoso pleaseth God shall escape from her; but the sinner shall be taken by her." Ecclesiastes 7:26, from the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament)






The severe and shameful oppression of women and their contributions to society has been hidden throughout the world or at best a rarely or untold story. The deaths of accused witches (heretics) is a direct result of this oppression and reached it’s peak from 1200 to 1800A.D. varying in range from 100,000 to 9 million persons but, the percentage of women killed, during this time, is consistent in all references. Eighty percent of the people accused, tortured, and burned during the witch hunts were women! There is a systematic behavior of scholastic and intellectual men who have feared women and her powers dating as far back pre-Paleolithic and Neolithic times. Europe witnessed this massive hunt, torture and killing of women and men who were also viewed as pagan/heretics. The pagans refused to give up their matrilineal culture and practices. Their very lives of planting and harvesting depended on it. The witch hunts became a useful vehicle as an attempt to stamp out the ancient pagan traditions built around the worship of the Goddess and Gods. “If life is inherently evil, the church fathers needed someone to blame; and who better to blame than woman, who creates life from her own body? Living women, also, can be publicly punished, as the iconic and illusory Devil can never be.” 2 Plus the church had a long tradition of taking over the most celebrated pagan holidays and began to call them Christian to gain the support of the people of the land. The church hijacked the yearly pagan celebration of the Sun and made it the celebration of the son now called Christmas.

You said "in christianity, the church", I want to know which church?:eyebrow:

Again, rather against my better instincts I really have to defend the Church/religion, on this score. Long before Christianity or Islam, Plato had defined woman as incomplete, not a full person like the male.

Roman Catholic theologian
Musings of a Jewish philosopher, 200/250 years BC.

This is the basis of the oppression of women?


How were these women accused? Who pointed the finger and called them witches? Women, in most cases. For reasons of their own, most likely catty, insignificant reasons, women hurled accusations at each other providing fuel for the trials. True, but this is sociological, not theological.You're mixing apples and oranges and plums and grapes. Not every US against THEM, that happened in history is the responsibility of the church just because they were present. We have chaplains in the military but that doesn't make the church responsible for wars we fight. Yes, I know, they started plenty of their own wars..... that doesn't negate my point.

Speaking of war, the battle of the sexes predates all the religions. Men had been fighting the battle of the sexes for thousands of years, because women don't want men to do what they want to do.
Religions, founded by men, were another male dominated organization, but it's funny, women used the church and it's social structure to control men's behavior with ever increasing effectiveness. Women "civilized" the frontiers, smoothed the cultural rough edges and generally made men behave, by way of the church, because it was the only organization they were allowed to join, the only place they were allowed to congregate and conspire. :lol:

Plenty of accusations came from men.

And women had been fighting the battle of the sexes because men don't want women to do what they want to do.

Depends on which era of Church history you are talking about. In the 8th and 9th centuries an increasing number of women joined holy orders....but they were really only the elite and their level of control was seriously limited. Later, in the 11th and 12th centuries many monastic orders stopped supporting sisterhoods, enacting rules to prevent the founding of any further convents and banning priests and monks from ministering to women.

Much of the softening of those cultural rough edges came from male clerics (such as the Peace of God movement) and women played a very small role in any of it until relatively recently.

I'm talking about the last two centuries as far as culture and civilization for anyone but the wealthy. ;)

I think there are a lot of assumptions and widely held misconceptions being passed off as facts in this thread.

And that, my son, is the basis of the feminist movement.

Like the pay difference act?

If you show me a company where a man and a women with equal expierence, credentials, and all that get paid different tell me because I haven't seen it. Women tend to take lower paying jobs while males tend to take higher paying jobs so obviously there will be a pay difference.

I know for a fact that this goes on in the UK

Look for,..... the union label. ;)

all very good points, but still doesnt lessen the impact of oppression and subjugation against women, whether by pre-christianity, or any other organised religion which has survived to today. lets face it, the womens' role in the church has been flower arranging and organising tea parties for fundraising.
are you aware of the lost gospels? e.g., the gospel according to Mary, which, among 20 odd other gospels were omitted from the bible by the council of micea, because it did not want Mary's (and others) words to be part of Jesus' teachings, hence the MEN cast her as a prostitute.

That women of equal/or better background & training are not paid the same, and not promoted the same, as men in the same position shows just how right our mothers have been about the fact that most of us never grew out of being those sad-sick little-boys.
This is why most of my friends are women.

There is one reason and one reason alone for the glass ceiling - fear.

Yes, I'm sort of aware, but certainly not a scholar on the subject. There have been several good articles (Smithsonian magazine was exceptional) and TV shows on Mary Magdalene and her position in the history purported to be shown in the Bible. A fair amount of publicity on the "lost" (unselected?) gospels spurred by the "Gospel of Judas" as National Geographics most popular story of 2006. This of course was helped by the Da Vinci Code movie.
Men had effectively divided and conquered women, keeping them from uniting in an effective defense (or offense), by not allowing women outside each family to congregate. The Church changed that in that women especially in rural/agricultural settings were first allowed to congregate, sometimes for most of the day(Sunday). This afforded the opportunity to compare notes, when the men thought they were swapping recipes and child rearing advice.

Then, when men threatened "be chaste and obedient or you'll not get to heaven" the women turned this around on the men, who were caught in a catch 22 of their own making. Soon Ladies Auxiliaries and clubs were formed, within the church. Yes, ostensibly for flower arranging and fund raising, but a chance for women to get organized, learning how to work together and assert their rights.

The church was male dominated in it's structure and teaching, but under it's blanket of social activities it was a very valuable tool for women seeking to throw off thousands of years of subservience. ;)

Feminism gives me visions of Vagina Monologues and Germaine Greer...*shivers*. I prefer the word emancipation.

The church always used the excuse for keeping the women inside the house that is was too dangerous outside for them.

I doubt this is provable, especially the "pre-Paleolithic" part. I think whoever told you that can't prove it either, and was talking... stuff.

Really, this language sounds like that burgher in Cabaret who said to Michael York's character, "It iss an established fact that zere iss a conspiracy of Jews..." I'd stay suspicious as hell of this, and of much of the rest of the paragraph I took this from.