America's thinking
 

This is a rant and I didn't really know where to put it so I am leaving it here since it pertains to politics. I am sorry for the length but I needed to get this off my chest.

On 9/11/01 Al Queida attacked America by hijacking planes to destroy the Twin Towers, Pentagon, and supposedly the White House. Now, this type of attack must have taken years to plan, requiring money, men, and extreme determination to pull off. This wasn't a type of attack to say "back off" but to show their extreme anger, frustration, and hatred not towards American politicians, but American society, America as a whole. I can't imagine what it took to get a group of people to do this sort of thing, not because I don't think America did anything wrong, but how to plan an event years in advance to show their revenge and hatred for us, feelings that tend to wear off after a few weeks.

Now, after we got attacked, America as a whole announced how it was going to hunt down and kill these terrorists. We fought fire with fire; we showed the world we meant business. We traveled the world, invading countries to get rid of this threat, to promote freedom, to spread democracy. After a few months we realized how hard this campaign was going to be, that not everyone was on the "knight with shining armor's" side. We then placed all resistance in a group of evil, with bias how they hate the "free world" and want to kill all westerners.

Looking back I see how we forgot to pick up their message, the message they gave us in the same form that we gave them months later. Instead of asking ourselves what we did wrong, we quickly proclaimed that these people are impossible to negotiate with, they want nothing except for us to die. Not realizing how we are, how they must think the exact same way as us but on the other side. Instead of looking at our mistakes and seeing how we can fix them, we attacked theirs, told them they were wrong, and conform to us or else. All without realizing that America is the one who is destroying others who will not conform, who are ones who hate everyone that reject our policy, who are too stupid to realize that our violence won't change their way of life. If a guy came into my house and threatened to kill my family I would want to sit down with him and see what led him to do this, so I change, not just kill him and become paranoid of others who might do the same.

I am seeing America's downfall before my eyes. America is like a building that wants to keep on getting bigger and bigger without looking at it's base. Anyone that has ever built a toy building knows that you need to strengthen and expand the bottom every once in a while before growing to prevent the building from toppling over from underneath. We are now past the time where we need to look down at our base and expand there and not at our egos. We need to accept that others hate us, our way of living, and everything we stand for. We need to find out our faults and see if we can change them, not have everyone else change for us.

A few minutes I got a wake-up call, which led me to create this rant. The words "I don't care" stuck me like a bullet through my spine. How we didn't care the reasons for other's actions, but only see the action itself, while, in the same breath, tell others that they need to change.

I think it is time for America to step back and look at ourselves in the mirror. We are growing out of control and are doing nothing to stop it, to control it, to help the growth of others. This is one of the first times I can truly say I am ashamed of being American, ashamed of our thinking, ashamed of all our brainwashing and social training. We are looking at a downward spiral with no cure, except for the ability to open our eyes. Yes, we may have to make some sacrifices but it will be for the best in the end.

Maybe in twenty or fifty years we can look at ourselves without denial, in the eyes of not just our friends, but our enemies. "We have already lost, if we do not learn from our mistakes. We have already lost, if we do not learn to change."*


*Quote from band As I Lay Dying

Yes, and? The US is stupid. It always has been, because PEOPLE are stupid, especially in groups. This is nothing new. EVERYONE needs to 'look at themselves in the mirror'.

Oh, and you lose big points for the AILD quote, too.

Obviously everyone has their own problems, but America seems the main country that is in the most denial and most unwilling to think it did anything wrong.

You have something against them?

Can't find anyone second-guessing Iraq? Maybe you missed all political content on all channels for the last 18 months, and an election in which there was a vast change in power, for which Iraq policy was typically listed as the #1 reason.

Yes, I am aware of those and the protests before the war even started.

If you want to get Iraq on our side you have appeal to their people, which complete military takeover doesn't accomplish. Yet, that has nothing to do with the fact that Americans don't think their morals are wrong by any means. You also have to ask why are we opposed to the war?

Actually, corruption was listed as the #1 reason. Too many Americans still believe America is doing right in Iraq.

This reminds me of dreams where I don't realize I am naked until I am outside. Where no matter what I do, I cannot run. Where everything is stripped down to simplistic and therefore unsolvable problems.

Who are these 'we's and 'they's who are somehow monolithic? When we talk about bin Laden, are we also talking about Saddam and Iraq? That is what was posted - just like that bad dream where nothing makes sense.

The post is way too simplistic. It dumps too many fruits and vegetables in one pot - and then calls it beef stew. I can appreciate the frustration. I can appreciate the fear of a nation that has somehow gone bizarre - is destroying itself by attacking the things that made America strong in the name of blind patriotism and 'enemies hiding under every bed'. But to not be specific only creates a muddy flood of conclusions and calls the result 'cleaner'.

There are simple questions with answer that are appalling. Such as, "When do we go after bin Laden?" Somehow this post lumps bin Laden with Egyptian political opposition groups to create 'they' and 'we'.

Originally Posted by Undertoad: Can't find anyone second-guessing Iraq? Maybe you missed all political content on all channels for the last 18 months, and an election in which there was a vast change in power, for which Iraq policy was typically listed as the #1 reason.
Iraq policy=corruption. Isn't that what UT meant?

Basically what I think we should have done after 9/11 is...
Send a message to Al Queida for justification and the reasons behind the attack. Not because we don't know but for publicity. Then if they don't give a justified claim (they won't) then we can attack. If they give any sort of information on why they attacked, we tell the American people why and at least let them know why they attacked instead of just calling them the filth of the world and keep allowing the American people to think they are perfect.

Why do you think they attacked us? Does it really matter?

I don't know exactly why they attacked us, that is the point. We don't make an attempt to find out why, even if there is no justification behind it. I'm not saying we should have mercy on them, but that we should at least know their point of view.

They told us that they attacked us because our troops were stationed on their holy land (Saudi Arabia.)

That isn't the only reason they attacked us. There has to be something more to plan an attack like 9/11 then just stationed troops. There is a difference from attacking a border country for that (Irael and Lebanon) and across the world.

We, Americans, are the devil. Thats why - didn't you get the memo?

I didn't say it was a good reason. I said it was the reason they gave us. I'd say it amounts to no justification, but as an American, I have a bias.

One would think. But lemme ask - what did America do to them that you believe would justify 9/11?

I know you never said it was a good reason or the "reason". I'm just annoyed how people don't care why, they just want revenge.

I personally don't think 9/11 is justified. I think that there were underlying causes that got exaggerated into something bigger than it actually was. I think the main reason was that America treats everyone else like shit but I'm not certain so I won't say that is the reason.

Also, just because I don't think 9/11 was justified doesn't mean it couldn't have been. Like how I don't believe Bush set up 9/11 but I won't rule it competely without definite proof.

A large portion of America is currently longing for the past, when international policy was black versus white and wars were fought against uniformed aggressors in organized armies that represented countries that issued declarations. You can hear it in the comparisons to World War II body counts ("3,000 lost isn't nearly as many as...!"), questions of why the public "isn't sacrificing more for the war effort" like "generations past", and even down to the phrase uttered many times after 9/11 that they'd "awakened the sleeping giant". It'd be so much easier if we were dealing with a country that was on a conquest for world domination instead of the complicated religious group/political spiderweb that dates back hundreds of years and why you'll continue to hear phrases like "they hate us for our freedom".

Our army isn't equipped to handle this, nor are our current policies. We can't understand why we can defeat the army and hang the dictator but cannot apply the "Mission Accomplished" label successfully, yet. A public that grew up reading the history of the defeat of the Nazis through manpower and the fall of communism thanks to a weapons race thinks the solution is to keep throwing ammunition into an age-old fire. Our actions fuel this.

America isn't a building trying to grow larger, we just don't understand why we can't fix these complex problems with air superiority and installation of a new political system. We want this, badly, to be good versus evil, not shades of gray.

I don't know if you were implying it or not but I was not talking about military action when saying stepping back. For military action I think we should "grow up" and not bully everyone around by using our force but reserve it for when we need it.

We should go start going back to our base more in our economics and civil isssues (I was talking about them in the first post but did a shitty job at getting that through). Ironically, we have never had what I am looking for in America before so it wouldn't really be going "back" as in time but just expanding our base.

Well said Kitsune.

We do know why 'they' attacked us AND it was well understood long before 11 September. This country is chock full of good, informed, honest, and responsible people (who were easily subverted by Rush Limbaugh logic and ‘big dic’ propaganda). That list of ‘good’ includes those who knew why America was being attacked, who was doing it, AND who were even 'retired' for reporting that it was coming. For example, you do know who John O'Neill was and why he was there when killed? If not, then America has another serious problem (another reason why George Jr is in Washington). Do you know this common knowledge from current events?

85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. (That was god's 1st Commandment before Moses dropped the first tablets.) A nation with little people empowered to do their jobs therefore had a 70% approval rating throughout the world. Hell, we rescued Kuwait and got paid to do it. That's right. It cost us almost nothing. Then we elected an extremist mental midget. Those little people did not disappear. Only one thing changed. Urbane Guerrilla got just the type of leader he adores. These leaders, for example, stifled handfuls of Federal agents - any of which could have averted 11 September if permitted to do their job. Again, you can name cities those agents were located because it was well published, common knowledge, and read by those who are, by definition, American patriots.

You did read the 9/11 Commission report - because you care about America? Did you notice, in every case, who fought for (to defend) America? Not a single member of the George Jr administration is on that list. Not one. Again – common knowledge. In many cases (such as the landing of all airliners), people who did not even have authority to save lives acted anyway. Did you understand the 9/11 story as detailed in that Commission report? Did you understand what makes America so great - so strong - so loved throughout the world? Do you understand how a mental midget and his cast from the dark side – how so few - have so subverted America?

No, not just somehow know. For if you cannot say why, then you are equivalent to that Sith president. ‘Evil’ are those who don’t do their jobs as citizens: learn.

You posts reek of despair because grasp of details are woefully missing. Appreciate why this country is so strong, innovative, and was so admired. Appreciate why so many aspire to be American friends when our leaders adhere to American principles (instead of running torture chambers, approved of by both George Jr and Urbane Guerilla, in Guantanamo, Poland, Bulgaria, Afghanistan, and Abu Ghriad). Appreciate why so few can undermine so many. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to …?

Learn from current details AND from the lessons of history. To appreciate why we are where we are, read the Pentagon Papers, Making of a Quagmire, or a Bright and Shining Lie. Or watch PBS Frontline's Lost Year to appreciate how incompetant this adminstration really is. IOW first learn. Then appreciate what America did to end that tyranny 30 years ago. Your despair should be replaced with a wild craving for solutions – what is also called the American spirit. Solutions are known, available, and being stifled by a group of incompetent and politically extremist wackos.

My god … a long and aggressive list of solutions are provided in the Iraq Study Group report. Did you read it – or instead do what incompetent managers do – read the executive summary?

But again, you keep them in power if you cannot post details that include 'why'. Your posts are dreadfully devoid of that grasp - which makes one little different from America's worst president. We know why 'they' attack us. We even knew when it was coming. Defined here is the America spirit. Do you appreciate what that is and what subverts it?

But we did know how to fix these things. How many Generals were 'retired' because they accurately defined how to fix it? They were opposing a political agenda. Therefore they were retired.

Ask yourself why Rumsfeld had to reach down to a one star general - total experience was command of one division - to find a commander for all forces in Iraq? Sanchez was all he could find? Or other generals knew what the real problem was?

Remember who every general serving in Iraq and now retired have blamed for the entire Iraq mess. This includes the legendary Barry McCafferty who is on the White House 'person non-grata' list for telling the truth.

It was not inevitable. Solutions were known. Even the intelligence was not faulty. Every country adjacent to Iraq, who had spies in Iraq, and who would be most threatened by Iraq, instead, saw no threat. Just another damning fact back in 2002. Why did we ignore that reality?

The Iraq Study Group has a comprehensive set of objectives and benchmarks - the only reasonable solution we have in Iraq. Already, many of those benchmarks should have been achieved. The problem requires solutions that aggressive. Instead the mental midget wants to study this problem for many more months. Why? The solution will either work or fail by end of 2007. Instead, the mental midget needs this thing to continue well after 2008. Deja vue Richard Nixon.

Solution from the Iraq Study Group is a threat to the legacy of George Jr. Don't think for one minute otherwise. This man - just like Nixon - is so corrupt as to send more (and too few) troops only so that a defeat does not occur under his watch.

OR, they flew planes into the Word Trade Center because they failed to blow it up in '93.
Our response was to attack them in Afghanistan, which was just and proper.

Unfortunately that job was bungled by, top management
The bungling continues, but everything will be okey dokey, once they catch Bin Laden. :right:

Since we don't have and never had boat people rafting out of the United States for any available foreign shore -- I'd say compared to most undemocracies, and most democracies for that matter, we've hardly anything wrong.

An utter absence of boat people is a CLUE. That the main population question is where and how to accommodate the influx, and that we never ever have a shortage of people trying like all git-out to get in is a CLUE. These are easy clues to get; I got them just off the top of my head, without effort.

That our opposition in the GWOT all come from non-democratic social orders is yet another CLUE. Democracy's enemies must be crushed, without let or hindrance, nor even momentary inefficiency. Our cause is democracy's cause, and democracy's cause is humanity's cause. Rabid-dog fascists must convert wholeheartedly to democracy or they must die, to save the rest of humanity from their evil attentions.

Honestly, hawkeye, I must ask why your vision does not seem to pierce through what the professional anti-Americans want to pull over your eyes. Though I am seeing at least a partial answer to that in the rest of this thread. I consider, though, that the "America's the Problem" claque to have it as wrong as they've always had since they started off with that guff. They've been steadily at it since the close of the Second World War, until we are bored with the boring-from-within.

Yes, America does have another serious problem because before you mentioned John O'Neill, I had no idea who he was. I heard of his story but it was never gone into fully.

I understand what makes America so great but why do we have to settle for that? After 9/11 we had every country begging us for them to help us and Bush threw that all away and the people followed Bush. "Freedom Fries", so France didn't want to fight the war in Iraq, we competely disrespect their opinion and act call them cowards. Five years later we are all saying how it was a mistake to go to Iraq. France was right, they took years of shit from us making fun of them for them to be right. Yet, we will still be willing to go back to "Freedom Fries" the next time Bill O'Reilly mentions it. That is America's problem. I appriciate what 60% of our country stands for but I want more.

I know and appriciate this even though I will admit I take a lot of it for granted. But, I don't want to settle for great in some aspects and piss poor in others. I want America to be great in all aspects and I'm trying to point out one way I see America is lacking in "greatness".

It's funny how much you can learn all beginning from one bias ignorant post isn't it? Do you know of any reliable perferably unbias sites that report actual news?

What subverts the American spirit? Government officals that can't take the risk of admiting a mistake so they try to cover up the evidence. Americans that just accept what they hear from the evening news and don't try to sort out what is real and what isn't. Media's inability to report decent news. I think that is what you are trying to get at but I can't be sure.

I'd have something to say here except I'm afraid someone will shoot me for it. ;)

Oh c'mon Ali, I want to hear what the other side of the world thinks.

Yeah Aliantha, go for it. Even with the best technology, we can't send a bullet over the internet. Just don't tell LJ he;s not funny. ;)

Go for it. No-one likes to take criticism of their country from an outsider, but here at least people (usually) take it constructively.

And if they don't, you're probably best placed to handle any counter-attacks. The antipodeans I've known personally are so proud of their country that it's a case of I'm like rubber, you're like glue....

Which can be frustrating when you're sat in a pub listening to a Kiwi tell you that all fish in the UK isn't worth shit. For about the fifth time. Aaaaargh - go home then.... Not saying he was representative of course - he's have been a cnut wherever he was born.

I'm sure if it were possible, an American would do it. ;)

As to LJ, I'm almost certain he likes my user title. It just proves people think about him even when he's not being funny. :)

With regard to this thread, all I can say is that I can see the point that the original post was supposed to convey. I think it's a lot more complicated than that though, and that's why it's not a question easily answered.

I do think that in the eyes of many, the US is becoming far to pervasive and therefor inescapable in modern life. Good or bad? I personally don't like the fact that a lot of Australian culture has become 'homogenised' or 'Americanised' - depending on how you view it.

On the other hand, I admire the steadfast US nature in some ways, however, I don't always think the US influence on the rest of the world is as altruistic as some would like us to believe.

Lies. Deceit. Bribery. Attacking whistle blowers. Using the IRS, FBI, CIA and illegal wiretapping to subvert patriotic Americans and the US Constitution. Man on Mars for the glory of a president. Solutions by armor, 44 pounds of $100 bills, and big guns (rolling thunder). Illegal campaign contributions. Increase in street crime that always occurs years after a corrupt and lying administration takes power. Diversion of campaign money for criminal activity. Even a campaign fund raiser in CA as New Orleans was threatened by a category 5 hurricane. Characteristics from Nixon and George Jr administrations. But all these still don't address a fundamental problem. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. And we the people still refuse to acknowledge or even learn these history lessons.

I cannot think of another time when the lessons of history - only 30 years ago - are so deja vue. Do we still teach history in school? Or is this also called Intelligent Design? Even facts that proved Saddam had WMDs only existed with propaganda spin. Spin as obvious as heard on Radio Moscow or Listerine ads. Now executives take home $210 million retirement bonuses for losing to the competition and subverting shareholder value. And again, the silence is deafening. Literally the State of OK had to file suite against Enron before the federal government would take action. How is that any different from the days of CReeP?

A Democratic Congressman said it best last night when confronted with a "Mission Accomplished" question. We elected that president. We got the war we wanted. Congress has no say in how troops are deployed. Congressman did not say that only large crowds - 1968 type demonstrations - will end this war. And yet Americans sit on their ass.

I cannot say how to avoid such problems when people blindly believe. I can only cite the symptoms. I can cite from history when one leader did something about as great as any. He was a poor Congressman. A do nothing Senator. Rather naive. And yet he stood up to some of this nation’s most powerful people and got them to think rather than resort to 'big dic' reactions. In his short time, a leader that no one would have believed great literally stopped ‘big dic’ rationalization by the majority. As a result, we exist. Who would have guessed that a lowly navy lieutenant would literally stop the legendary Gen Curtis Lemay from ending the world? There was nothing to say he even had the balls. And yet we exist.

People were literally walking the streets of Berlin, Tokyo and Santiago crying the day he died. Show me an American leader today who could earn so much love and respect. He did not lie. He had ethics. He stood for American principles. He consulted our allies – especially earning the respect of Charles de Gaulle – no small task. AND he did something that defines a good American. He also demanded answers to questions such as ‘why’ – in part because he was promoting reality rather than a political agenda. Well that leader just may exist. And that is the irony and a lesson of history. If he does exist, we do not have a clue.

Maybe that is why some so enjoy reading obituaries? At least that way you know. But we do know one thing. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. And when that top man says there is plenty of blame to go around; 99% of all problems are directly traceable to him.

I don't find myself ever thinking that these days. All I can see is corporate implantation--no altruism at all. Just money, money, money.

tw, you're right, we haven't had such an astounding leader in recent history the likes of JFK; he certainly had the mystique going on. But he died so young, and was not without his faults. I suspect lies, deceit and bribery just go with the territory. Not to say that we, the American public, should accept that. But it's a tough tradition to battle against.

Do you think Obama has a chance to be that? He is a great speaker and writer, but do you think he is all that he hypes himself up to be?

No, and no.