Is it ever *ok* to cheat?
 

I know, sorry, I am spamming the boards today :blush:

Anyways, my gf has just starting shagging this married man and she was giving me his bleeding heart story last nite then got shitty at me for rolling my eyes :right:

Now, I'm not sure where I sit on this, for *me* personally....I dont think there is ever a good excuse to cheat.
That means, I wouldnt ever cheat, I would leave the relationship I was in if I felt the need to cheat.

That said, I will admit to having been *the bit on the side* in the past....normal story, loveless marriage, staying for the kids....blah blah blah. I knew he was married, had no grand illusions of him ever leaving his wife and it was more a fuck buddy situation than anything else.

The problem is, I think my gf will think he is going to leave his wife etc. I dont think he ever will, one of the reasons being the financial implications.

Soooo, do you think there is ever a good excuse to cheat?


Are both parties equally to *blame* or does the blame lay solely with the partnered cheater?

Well Ducks, You and I have had this conversation already, but....Having posted many times that I had been cheated on, I would say the pain that it caused me and the years I spent trying to rebuild the relationship and trust. . . no its not. Only under some extremely rare and unusual circumstances could I justify it.

Having been the cheater, cheated-on, and cheated-with in the past, all I can say is...cheating means something is wrong. There can be an excuse to cheat, I think, but not a good excuse.

I lost a friend over the exact same thing. He cheated on his live-in gf (who had a 5 yo daughter that had started to look up to him). He got caught and came to me for support and I pretty much smacked him upside the head and told him he was a lying, cheating dumbass.

Those were our last words. Fine.

No.
Blame. Well, I'd have to say the blame of the cheating lies with the partnered person. The other person is to blame as a home-wrecker.

woo. I think she meant, could the person being cheated on be partly to blame?

such a gray area. of course it's possible. every possible degree of blame from none to all is possible. every case is different. you could argue extremes in either direction.

beyond that, 'ok' is subjective. if you feel no remorse, and don't regret it, then i guess it's ok. if your partner doesn't care if you do, it would be ok.

smell what i'm cookin? this is an unanswerable question.

No on all levels.

If the relationship is not working, end it. But too many people keep it for safety, money, nice cars, TVs, accessories and cheat for the pleasure of sex or social aspect. These are all lame but common justifications.

But cheating is wrong on all levels despite the problems in the relationship.

If it's not working, fix it, or get a new one (relationship).

I ask alot of them huh?

Hoof - I get where you are coming from, and I agree...but....why should the unpartnered person be to blame, unless they tried to *lure* the partnered person away? Even if they did lure the person away, isnt that because they were lurable?? (is that word?).

You know, when he-who-couldnt-keep-his-dick-in-his-pants got caught cheating on me, I didnt blame the girl at all. She knew about me, but it was his doing in my book.

All he had to do was break up with me first and it would of been fine :)

Hubby and I have talked about this. I asked him if he'd forgive me if I cheated on him and he reckons he would, although I can't imagine ever betraying him like that. I'd probably kill him if he cheated on me, and I don't know if I would forgive him because I know he wouldn't do it 'just for the sex'. He's more 'mushy' than I am when it comes to sex in so far as needing the emotional commitment more than the physical. Edit: So I know that there's something very seriously wrong with our relationship if he cheated.

I find it really hard not to judge cheaters. Someone always gets hurt, and that's very sad. Having said that, I've been cheated on before, and I've also been 'the other woman'. I'm very glad to say that I've never been unfaithful to a lover, although I have had relationships where it was acknowledged that we would be seeing other people. Sometimes even that doesn't end too well.

:eek: Me too.:o I agree 100%, there is always a cause, a reason, but that's never an acceptable excuse.

Nope. Break up first. You can always control yourself.
There is no good reason.

I think I was too cut and dried in my accusation of the other person being a Home Wrecker.
I would suppose that if the cheater did not tell the person they were seeing about their partnered commitment, then that person would be just as much of a victim, in my book. However, once the person knows about the cheater's partner...I think it is wrong to continue the relationship until things are resolved with the first relationship.

IMO, once a cheater...always a cheater. Well, not ALWAYS...but darn sure the majority of the time that is true. Trust is such a delicate issue...so easy to lose and difficult to regain.

I don't know...It's possible that many 'cheaters' grow up, eventually fall in love with the right person, and/or learn their lesson. I think most people want to have healthy relationships.

I agree... plus many people who are in relationships that are not working can work it out.
People do not always cheat only because of their own character flaw (though that is always part of it, you should always abstain from cheating) but they are, sometimes, not getting something they need or want from the other party in their relationship.
Sometimes this can be worked-out.
It is rare, if they have taken the step to cheating, but it can work afterwords.
We, in the West, take sex too seriously... though the promise that it breaks is very serious, it can be mended.

Hmm, I personally don't sit well with the thought of people cheating on their partner. Whether be as a boyfriend, girlfriend, fiance, wife or husband. Cheating is just going to cause pain and it's usually never a good solution to problems in the relationship. People can try to justify why... but really, why don't they stop being in denial?
I agree with so much of what has been said, but I don't know how to "quote" people... [Would appreciate a side note explaining how.]
Like I like what Bluecarcao said, about there never being a good reason.

Welcome to the cellar, Wendalz. To quote a post, just click on the "post" button, at the bottom of the post that you want to quote.

By "good" reason, do you mean legitimate? Hypothetical: How about if you've been married to a woman for twenty years, and have kids. You love your wife and family. Your wife doesn't want to have sex with you anymore, yet sex is a very important part of a relationship to you. You treat your wife well, are still sexually attracted to her, have never, and don't want to, cheat on her. You've discussed the issue, ad nauseum, and the situation remains the same. You can:

divorce
cheat
rape your wife
whack off
go without sex

Remember, there's a lot more to the relationship than sex, but it's very important to you. What do you do?

I don't think it's as easy as "she just doesn't want to have sex". Does she have health issues? Have you changed and she's just no longer attracted to you, even though you're attracted to her? Are there other issues going on in the marriage or in the family that may be more important to her than what's going on sexually? If you have a healthy and normal sex life at the beginning of your marriage and then things suddenly or drastically 'fall off', that's generally the sign of an underlying issue that needs to be addressed. Find out what the source of it is before you go traipsing around outside of your vows.

Divorce is always an option. Cheating, should never be. You can always change hands and feel like you're with someone new, if you're resorting to the self gratification option. And well, I have feelings on the whole 'rape your wife' option, but I'm not going to bring them up here.

For some people, cheating means giving away your heart, and not sharing your genitals. Unless one has permission from one's S.O. to be in love with someone else, it is wrong. Sharing one's genitals without a similar understanding is also wrong.

However, everything is predicated on the relationship's stated exclusivity to begin with.

Breaking one's word is always wrong. It all depends on what topics you have given your word.

In marriage; "forsaking all others" is just that...ALL OTHERS.

simply put, it is NEVER ok to cheat. i have been the cheater and the cheatee, and both times the results were never as anticipated. One of two things happen, you either split, or the experience makes you/your partners relationship stronger, thankfully in my case, the latter applies.

Let me make sure this is clear. You think it is better to give up a loving, caring relationship, stable home environment, two-parent household, and break apart a family, rather than cheat?

Do you think the wife should just give it up, once in a while?

If that person is considering cheating, then I have to argue that the relationship is NOT loving, caring or stable and a breakup seems immenent because of those factors.
Cheater can be either wife or husband. Lets not lump the "cause" all on the poor wifey, now...

I don't think he meant the wife was cheating when he asked if you thought she should, "give it up once in a while".:lol:

I suspect he was referring to wives that lose interest in sex 10, 20, 30 years before their husbands, driving them out of the house to seek release.

So many here say they have been the cheater in the past, and yet saying cheating is wrong. It makes me wonder, if you know it is wrong, then why on earth did you cheat in the first place?

I have never been the cheater, but I have been cheated on. I was the other woman, but that situation was very complicated. I was asked to participate in a threesome with a married couple, and I agreed. The wife was ok with it if we were all together and so we fooled around a little other than the actual threesome. However, afterwards the husband and I had some experiences on our own. I know this was wrong as she was not ok with that aspect. I did try to abstain from doing what I knew shouldn’t be done, but in the end I made a mistake. At the time I told myself it wasn’t a big deal because she knew we had had sex before.

I should add that I thought the marriage was stable when I agreed participating in the fantasy. I was not attached at the time and I just thought they wanted to explore a little. I found out later that this was not the case and they divorced not long after our experience. I would never have agreed if I thought for a moment that I could be a catalyst for their divorce, but I was young and naive.

Actually, the husband (now ex- obviously) is my SO. It has been over 4 years since this event and we have been together through thick and thin since then. He and his ex-wife married not long after high school and didn’t really know what they wanted. He is almost 6 years older than me so he had already been married for a couple years when I met him. He says that he now knows they married for the wrong reasons and the relationship was doomed anyway. I still feel I made a mistake.

Some of you might say that I should be worried that he will cheat on me. But we have talked extensively, and there is no one I trust more. That is why I feel we can be together for the rest of our lives. We have a polyamorous relationship so if he finds someone he wants to be with it is ok with me. It is understood that I will know what goes on, but since I know he has no reason to cheat since I am ok with him being with other women then I feel no reason to not trust him. That and we have a much more honest relationship than him and his ex-wife.
But I am allowed other relationships, so it isn’t one sided.

I do know that I have been hurt deeply in the past because I have been cheated on. I would never do that to my mate especially because of our relationship. Why lie when I can tell the truth and share in the joy with my SO?

Just my 2 cents.

Iggy, you've answered your own question, in so many words...'complicated,' 'mistake,' 'young and naive,' etc., etc.

Love, trust, commitment, respect--these are the ideals we work toward. If you really want them, you have to be willing to put in the work to maintain them--don't ever take them for granted.

Iggy that polyamorous attitude seems contradictory to "That is why I feel we can be together for the rest of our lives." I just don't understand how that can work. I'm not being judgemental - I'm honestly tying to understand that philosophy.

just because one has cheated doesn't mean it was right, i regret that decision.
if one really needs a release and the woman cannot or will not comply, then a man can go to the supermarket, buy a can of tuna, head down to the animal shelter for a stray cat and then rub the tuna on his genitalia
i know, that's cheating, too i'm just trying to be funny ( @ )( @ )

My wedding had no such statement included on the part of either the minister or Selene and myself.

For some, being certain of the continued love and trust of one's S.O./Spouse is the only way they can even begin to think about a polyamorous/open relationship.

If anyone here thinks for one moment that I'd be letting my wife have off with other men if I didn't love and trust her completely, they'd have another think coming. I assume she feels the same way about me (although I am not exactly active at the moment).

Yours didn't, and ours don't either - we wrote exactly what we wanted to say:

I *****/take you *****/ to be my partner in life/I promise to walk by your side forever/ and to love, help, and encourage you/ in all that you do./I will take time to talk with you/ to listen to you, /and to care for you/ I will share your laughter and your tears/as your partner, lover, and best friend./ Everything I am/ and everything I have is yours/ now and always.

However, that doesn't mean I'd not hang him up by his meaty bits (or admit he'd have a right to do the same to me) if I found out he was cheating.

You wouldn't encourage him, in his cheating endeavor? You'll share his laughter and his tears, but not his naughty bits? ;)

I shared what I did because I was agreeing with 'Spode - not asking for ridicule. Those words are special to me - but thanks for twisting them.

That said...

Would you encourage your spouse to cheat?

I will encourage my future husband in anything and everything that he wants, as long as it does not degrade the foundation of our relationship. As long as it does not harm us, him, or myself. As long as it's for the betterment of those things that we share.

Uh, no, I don't think so. While we did not say 'forsaking all others', we both know that there will be no others - and if anyone takes a step across that well drawn boundary, a fair bit of damage has been done to the relationship.

Words you'd never hear ME say - "No, go ahead honey, go schtupp that tart - I'll be here waiting when you get home."

Words you may hear ME say - "Oh, go head honey, go schtupp that tart - I have the divorce attorney on speed dial - and I wouldn't mind half of everything - your stuff will be on the lawn when you get home"

The minute he asked me to be his significant other - there was an agreement that our relationship was exclusive - that there were no others - period. The minute he asked me to be his wife - that agreement was a little more solidified. The moment he takes me to be his wife - it's pretty much iron clad.

But that's just me - I respect the man I love. And I know he respects me.

If a partner is no longer attracted to another and withholding sex, to me, that is grounds for divorce.
That is not "giving it up", she/or he does not want to be with you and you are doing them a favor.

I think it's cheating when an old fart hangs onto someone just because there isn't anything else.

Lighten up, honey.

oh no he di'int

Oh, I do believe he did.

But hey, it's just not worth worrying about. A year or so ago, I'd have handed him his arse - now....I'll just ignore it.

(Ah, the rewards of growin up *G*)

On topic: Only if it is with your friends... :p

Off topic: Note: three posts in one day! :thumb2: Damn! I'm on a roll!

Iggy and Spode, I should have stayed in Kansas, and we could have all formed a commune!

To me, cheating is only cheating if dishonesty is involved. I would consider it cheating in my relationship if my husband was not honest with me about a person he was in love with and planned to leave me for. And at that point, I would realize the relationship is no longer worth continuing. I trust that he will be honest with me about this if it ever occurs. However, I am optimistic that this will not happen, since we are honest with each other and I know that he loves me and I love him. I don't expect that he will never *want* another woman. I believe that is unrealistic as it would be unrealistic for me to never *want* another man. There is also a definite level of emotional connection with other people that we recognize and free each other to experience. I know that because we give each other all the freedom we want in the relationship that there is no reason for jealousy or dishonesty. This has enriched our relationship.

Oh yeah, and our marriage vows were impromptu. I am fairly certain there was no inclusion of any of the standard vows that are heard most often in weddings. This was what was right for us.

I respect the views of others. I think LJ mentioned in a separate thread that monogamy is a social structure that we humans created (something like that). I agree and choose not to completely accept that structure, but I respect it. Having been cheated on, I remember what it felt like to expect that fidelity and I will admit (boo, hiss) that I have been dishonest about a situation of infidelity in my past, as well. I learned something from that...that for me, to expect that or have that expected of me isn't what I want.

this is a thread about cheating, and that implies secrecy. if you know your spouse has a friend that they love, or if you know they are boinking someone else, and you're ok with it....then it's not really cheating, is it?

do you always feel the same way about it, or does your opinion waver? You allude to 'experiencing' other people. In thinking about this logically, I would expect that it would be easier to deal with your partner becoming emotionally attached to someone else if it were a platonic relationship. the posts elspode has shared about selene being out on dates, however, have the opposite impact on my imagination.

I think it might be harder for me to deal with it if my spouse started spending time away from me with another man.....even if I was positive that nothing physical went down....and definitely if there were. harder than dealing with a temporary infidelity, that is. neither would be any fun...as you say, if there were dishonesty involved, and it would take time to heal....I just think that it would be a whole lot easier to forgive a roll in the hay then it would to forgive a secret love on the side.

Nope.

Hmmm....I feel the same way about this all the time. In the beginning of our relationship it wasn't quite the same as it is now, but it has changed and I expect,accept and embrace that. Platonic relationships are cool. Platonic can mean anything you want it to. I am not sure what you are asking me, here but I hope I have sufficiently clarified.

I could completely understand that it would be harder to forgive a roll in the hay than a secret love, but if there is no secret and an understanding of our expectations (or lack thereof) there is nothing to forgive. We enjoy giving each other this freedom. The way I see it: I don't really have a right to limit him to what he should experience and I don't want to be limited either.

I want to also mention that this has not been an excuse to "boink" everyone out there. Honesty with each other is not exclusive. I would never want to hurt another person for my own desires just because I have a desire to "experience" something. These things have been pretty rare.

Wow, I am starting to feel as if I have exposed something to the cellar. It actually feels pretty good.

No. Simply, no. Even a three year old knows what cheating is, albeit in a different context, and knows it's wrong.

I like what you had to say, Dagney. I hope to have a relationship of mutual respect like that someday. Respecting, not only by not cheating, but with your words, and actions, and the way you live your life.

Through some my fault and some not my fault, I have failed to find that so far.

Cheers to you and yours! :)

I have never understood the mindset of someone who dates/sleeps with a married person, hoping they will leave their spouse and marry them.
All you are getting is someone who cheats on the person they are married to.

That's like stealing a great looking car and parking it the middle of the worst neighborhood and leaving the doors un-locked.

Thanks Shawnee :)

I have always thought that relationships were best when a strong foundation is laid. I treat people the way I wish to be treated (for the most part, I'm not always perfect, especially when the bitch engine is revving). And part of that, is to treat people with the respect that I'd like to be given.

I can't remember who said it, and I think it was Zippy actually - that a marriage is not 50/50 - you can't just give 'half'. You have to give your everything - and so does your partner - it's 100/100. To me, cheating, either physically, emotionally, or in any other manner, takes away from that 100/100 ratio, and damages the foundation of the relationship - it chips away at the trust and respect that you have for your partner, and I strongly think that cheating chips away at your own self respect, as well as the self respect of the person you're cheating on. (Been there, done that, being cheated on is devastating)

In regards to the Man, it took me a _long_ time to find him. And well, there are days where I wonder what lottery I won to have him just 'drop' into my life. Some day - I'll put together the story of how we met and what transpired to bring us together. It's an interesting story.

In the past few months, I've figured out that the guys I dated previously (for the most part) did not treat me the way I deserved to be treated. That's partly my fault - because I let them treat me in a way that was less than what I deserved. It was quite the eye opening experience - that's for sure.

I'm not sure what changed actually - if it was finding him, and the recognition of being treated well came after that - or if I changed beforehand, making it the right 'time' in my life for him to find me. I know that in one of our first long conversations, he said that while he felt terrible that I had been through so many painful things in my past, that those things were what eventually made me 'ready' to be found by him - and vice versa of course.

Either way - I'm tremendously glad that we're together :heartpump

That has been my situation, selling myself short. Actually, my ex husband is a great guy...we are just better at being best friends than we were at being married. But the couple relationships I've had since then I've let them take me for granted.

Your words and feelings are inspiring. I feel that if I don't find that right guy I'll be fine, and I'm not looking for it...but the romantic side of me hopes I win that kind of lottery: a caring, respecting, funny guy who I can count on!

I'd offer you his brother, but his wife may not like that ;)

I seriously stopped looking, and he (almost literally) fell in my lap.

You must tell the story!

Once upon a time.....

Nah, I changed my mind.

My posts on that topic are meant to reveal my own state of mind at a given moment - the moment of the posting, actually. It isn't required, or even possible (IMHO) to be always and utterly at ease with everything about a poly relationship.

It is my own internal and minute to minute misgivings I share. I'm not intending to indict the *concept* of poly/open marriage. I feel as though that sharing what goes through my head is far more honest than waxing eloquent about the philosophical, emotional and intellectual superiority of poly relationships. I have, in fact, seen someone do exactly that on an e-list recently, and watched with some bemusement as his wife divorced him a couple of short months later. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned somewhere along the line that this sort of thing isn't right for everyone, and on some evenings, it isn't right for me, either. But I usually get over it once I've whined enough.

Mostly, I'm whining because I'm not exactly a hot property right now, while Selene is doing rather well. I am happy for her, unhappy for me, and that's a part of the reality of this type of relationship. I don't really mean to communicate anything other than my own chagrin, and to provide some insight on the inner workings of insecurity and polyamory in action. Think of it as my offering in the intellectual voyeurism contest.

Extramarital sex leads to extramarital intimacy.
Extramarital intimacy leads to extramarital love.
Extramarital love leads to marital fear.
Marital fear leads to marital anger.
Marital anger leads to marital stress.
Marital stress leads to doobies.
Doobies leads to Twinkies.
Twinkies lead to fat.
Fat leads to embarrassment.
Embarrassment leads to hiding in the Cellar instead of getting fresh air and exercise.
Works for me.:cool:

One of the ways that I know that Bruce is a really standup guy is that he insists on making me look at the big picture, even though I really only want to scan the Readers Digest.

For someone I've never met, he's about my best damn friend in many ways.

Bruce, are you saying that extramarital sex is the path to the dark side?

Els you are the first one to share the inner workings of a poly relationship and it has been quite eye opening for me. I appreciate your honesty and candid posts. Thanks for that!

Well, that might have been a bad choice of words. We want to be together for as long as possible. I guess the best way to put it is if we have the freedom to be who we want to be, then why leave? We love each other very much and trust each other very much and we can expand our horizons while staying in the relationship. There isn't going to be a day where we get bored and want to go elsewhere and are forced to cheat or separate. If that makes sense. We both know that there could be things in the future that cause us to not want to be together, but we have been through so much it is hard to imagine. I honestly don't know how to describe it. But I do know that from where I sit right now I can't see any reason for him to leave me or for me to leave him. I will mull this over some more and try to find a more satisfactory answer.

I find it very fascinating, I think I get what you mean, but the whole idea is so contradictory to everything I have ever known it just - well I dunno. I don't mean that I'm against it or negative towards it in any way either.

I think elspode and case say it best. I am just not the best at saying what I want to say... *ugh*

Nonsense. Your point of view is quite cogent and a welcome addition to such discussions. As with all things, each individual experiences polyamory/open marriage in a different manner. No two experiences or points of view are likely to be precisely the same, even though the activities involved often are.

Polyamory is a pretty alien concept to our society in general. Discussing both the concept and our individual experiences is a good thing, IMHO.