Surgery VS Ransom
 

You need a heart transplant or you'll die. The heart transplant costs $250,000, and you don't have health insurance.

Is this any different than someone putting a gun to your head and demanding $250,000 to not pull the trigger? If it's different, how?

The guy with the gun is doing it to you. A better analogy would be if you're hanging off the side of a cliff and a passer-by wants $250000 to pull you up.

not even that. it woudnt cost the guy 250k to pull your ass out of danger.

If you have a bad heart, you die. If you have 250K to spare, you live. no ransom. just no communism, either.

Yeah man. Shit happens. Life's hard. Get a helmet. I don't think its very comparable at all, in my opinion.

I think Happy Monkey's analogy is better.

I will never understand how a wealthy nation can accept health inequality within its borders. A nation which can afford to ensure its citizens have access to the best medical care and chooses not to, in my view fails its citizens. I include my own nation in this. We are currently failing our citizens by allowing health inequalities. In the ward I live in, the average life expectancy is ten years greater than that of the people who live in the ward I represent as a councillor. The distance between them is four miles. Four miles and ten years difference. Babies born four miles from my home are almost twice as likely to die before they reach their first birthday, than babies born on my street. Health inequality affects every part of life and death.

If we make all health care equal, then as a political decision we have to mandate what the limit of care is. We can't provide everything to everyone without limits. If everyone gets the same basic health care, where does innovation come from? Health care is going to be limited by the state or by economics either way can be seen as unfair. We're in the midst of a similar attempted leveling in American public education. National standards are taking the individual out of the picture much as national health care attempts to ignore individual difference. There is no perfect answer and right now Americas public/private health care hybrid manages to hit that sweet spot where nobody gets decent care.

Not true. The wealthy get excellent health care.

True. The extremely wealthy are getting good care.

There was a news item last week about this black doctor who chose to work in a hospital close to the low income neighborhood in which he grew up.

The number of women there who were dying from breast cancer appalled him; most did not seek treatment early because of lack of money and insurance.

In a day where early detection of breast cancer should be accessible to every woman it is a disgrace. After all, think of all the money saved by smashing our boobs in a vise when an ultrasound is not only less painful it's more accurate.

How about if it was your kid, and you had no health insurance?

Do you think it's communism to help someone who is truly in need, just to survive?

Oh I just hate it when people say that. Do your beliefs, morals, convictions, whatever, go right out the window when your own family is involved??? Yuk.

So you are morally convinced that the poor should be left to die?

Why not? Leaves more 'stuff' for the more deserving. :cool:

Yes, of course, I mean obviously.... that's exactly what I said isn't it? :rolleyes:

I'd suggest thet she's just as convinced of that as you are that the State needs to decide who dies.

I'd rather the state decide than the economy

Our state and our economy are the same: they both suck!

A free economy would be a more moral choice.

This guy has freed his practice from third party payers, which are the real problem with the American system.

Third parties are the real problem for relatively healthy people who are only getting routine preventative care. Yes. But they will save your life if you really get a major illness and can't afford the very expensive treatments on your own.

Those special situations are what insurance companies are actually good at and were originally for, distributing the cost of prohibitively expensive procedures/meds. They should not be skimming off the top of the day to day relationship between the doctor and patient.

The only one who should decide who dies is the person in question or their designee. The state should be in charge of saying that nobody else makes the decision.

That kind of question puts things in perspective, and many people's "beliefs, morals, convictions" change. For instance, Dick Cheney's issue with his lesbian daughter, and stem cell research opponents when Dutch Reagan bit the big one.

I'm disgusted at the "I say let them die" attitude soem people have. Especially when they have a different feeling when it hits close to home.

I'd do what it takes to save my kid. I wouldn't demand that you do it.

i'm disgusted by the bald faced entitlement some people exhibit.

I didn't say let them die. But no one owes you a heart if yours doesn't work.

You put this retarded analogy up there and expect people to treat it seriously? Really. re-read it. it's retarded.

A minority of the people require the most expensive health care. People who work in health care need incentive to do it. Economics are a big part of the problem. Large HMO's, Pharmacy industries, and Insurance companies are the one's getting rich. The health care providers are not, well a few are, but not most.

So you smoke all your life and suddenly expect my tax dollars to pay for your lung transplant? You weigh 300 pounds and suddenly it is my responsibility to pay for your knee replacement? You drive drunk and are involved in an MVA, spend 3 months in ICU and have a head injury that requires life long nursing care and I should pay for that? You sneak into the US illegally and I should pay for your complicated OB care and the 4 months in ICU for your premature baby? You live on bagles and cream cheese and chips all your life and I should pay for your Fem-pop by-pass? You are a diabetic and don't care for yourself so now I should pay for your dialysis and subsequent kidney transplant. The list goes on... Where does it stop. Well I guess you could say that because of the color of your skin that your ancestors never had a choice to come to this country so it is my fault that you are the way you are and so I should have to pay for your free health care. I don't buy it. Like someone else said, life ain't fair, wear a helmet.

You seem inordinately interested in skin colour.

Not everyone (or even most) who needs medical assistance, is in that position because of their lifestyle/carelessness/human folly.

You're right. Life is unfair. Society is the helmet.

If you're 60, heavy smoker, overweight, bad diet, too unhealthy to be employed (hence no insurance), then yes, it's different.

If you're a child with an incurable heart defect, then no.

How about if you're a clean living, hard working father of four whose employer doesn't include health benefits in with the remuneration package and your minimum wage doesn't stretch to health insurance?

I would agree with that.

Society is not the helmet if you are stupid. If you are stupid you have no helmet. Some of the skin color has nothing to do with health care. Idiot behaviors which force my bills to be higher and insurance premiums to be higher are the issue here.

For those people we need a plan. This is not the person who is cranking up the rates. Look at any major hospital in the US and find out what are the most expensive patients they treat. #1 is trauma, and of those most are uninsured.

The healthcare system for things like heart transplants etc are considered necessary surgeries and therefore are based on a needs must scenario. That is, the most urgent is first in the list, and the operating expenses and a large portion of all the medical bills associated with the surgery are covered by the state.

Other forms of surgery which are considered elective surgeries, that is, non life threatening proceedures, have much longer waiting lists if you're waiting on public funding however, if you have private health cover, you can schedule these surgeries in much shorter periods of time.

I think the system we have here could be better, but I believe it's one of the best out there, and frees people from the moral dilema of having to decide who should live and who should die.

Hey Merc... I was born like this, my ins will run out soon, if I live that long. Where is my helmet?

then you're an irresponsible asshole. If you can't afford to care for your kids, don't fucking have them. Who told us that it is our right to procreate beyond our ability to care for our offspring without government assistance?!

The decisions you make in your life have consequences.

You have no helmet and I have no responsibility to buy you one. My suggestion is for you to find a job that gives you insurance. Same thing is going to happen to my kids. Same thing will happen to my daughter in about 2 years when she graduates from college. I wish I could help, but you know it is part of growing up and moving on. In this day and age, in this country if you don't have a job with health insurance you are screwed. So to all you college kids out there with graduation in your sites, a job at the local coffee shop ain't going to cut it. Good luck.

Can't wait till rkz sees this last post from mercenary.

Hey, Merc... when you read the phrase, "I was born like this," did you think he meant as a college student with no job? Just wondering.

I have no idea, but yea, something along the lines of: currently dependent on parents, soon to be on the job market. Is there something you want to tell me?

Why should I know anything about him? This is a Fourm filled with people who don't know each other.

Why should you know anything about anyone?

Maybe you should take that into account before you make 'suggestions' to people you know nothing about.

Why should I hold back my opinions when things are being discussed? When asked I will respond. I have no responibility to hold back my opinion when people enquire. "Where is my helmet?" This is a question.

Whatever you say...moron.

I just felt the need to share my opinion with you.

So why does that make me a moron anymore than you?

It doesn't make you anything. It's just what I think of you.

:rainbo: :jig: :beer: :grouphug: :bong:

Thanks for clearing that up... moron.:madhop:

lol...no problem. It was my pleasure...really. :)

now now.....neither of you is any bigger a moron than the other......

:biggrinpi

Well in this case, I'm quite happy to give the floor to him...or even you lj. :)

Nobody's demanding anything. Obviously, there could be a scenario where you couldn't "do what it takes". What then?

You view this as "entitlement"?

I was responding to this, not you.

People ARE treating it seriously. Even you. Does that make you retarded?

Why sure they are. All of the latest democratic pundits are preaching it. People who are supporting allowing illegal aliens to stay in this country are preaching it. People who think they deserve a handout are demanding it.

yes! yes, it does. thanks.

No no - thank you!

Its not the United States government's job to spare no expense to keep everyone alive as long as possible. Sorry.

And if you make doctors government employees then our health care system will end up looking like our education system. Yep, everybody gets an education. The exact same education. Whether you live in Westchester, NY or Selma, Alabama.

You want government-provided health care? Its available. Its called the United States Military. But generals still get better treatment than privates.

Stop wanting stuff for free. Just stop it.

Not necessarily for free Beestie. In the UK we have the NHS and that delivers treatment 'free at the point of need', but we've all paid for it. We've paid for it in taxes and we've paid for it with National Insurance contributions. Even the very poor, make a small contribution (very small) out of their benefit payments. It isn't a perfect system by any means, but it seems much fairer to me. The wealthy usually pay and get themselves private treatment for some stuff, but interestingly, they rarely use private General Practitioners: for routine stuff they usually use the same system everybody else uses, because it's a good service and because they, like everyone else have already paid a small contribution to it.

Yeah, if I wasn't already convinced how much the NHS sucked before, all the various threads here about it by UK folks have really won me over... :rolleyes:

Getting back to the point.

I like Happy Monkey's analogy better, so...

How is it different? Ton of money for medical, or you die. Ton of money to help you from falling off a cliff, or you die.

I work in the NHS and I do whinge about the NHS - it should be much better for the amount of money it costs. But I think it's much better than nothing.

When my Dad was taken into hospital three weeks ago the one thing Mum didn't have to worry about finding money to pay for it. He had a whole series of tests and ended up lying in a hospital bed waiting for a theatre slot in order to have angioplasty.

We were frustrated that it took 13 days from admission to discharge but we knew he was in the best place. We moaned (esp Mum who doesn't drive and had to get lifts/ take the bus for the best part of two weeks - and missed him terribly of course) and commented on how in another country he'd have had the operation the same day. We didn't really talk about the fact that in another country they might have had to sell the house to pay for the operation, or in fact he might just have died (not referring to America here of course). Too depressing- better to moan about the bus journey instead.

The positive part of the waiting is that Dad is easily bored and hates to be away from all his little projects, so he promises faithfully he won't suffer chest pain stoically ever again - he'll be at the Doctors the same afternoon.

Glad to hear your Dad's on the mend SG.

My Dad has been taken into hospital for emergency treatment five times in the last two years. He has to have regular oxygen treatment and also uses a nebuliser daily. As a pensioner he doesn't even have to pay for his prescriptions.

For myself, I have regular medication which even at the standard prescription charge of £6.50 per item would amount to approx. £45 per month, except that I am able to buy a prepay certificate for £90 per year. When I was unemployed for two years I didn't even have to pay that. In the UK we moan a lot about the NHS....because it's not perfect and it could be run much better. What we don't have in the UK is an acceptance of the fact that if someone is poor they should just be abandoned to their fate. If I have to see my doctor, I don't have to check what money I have first. Dentists are a little different, we have some access to dentists on NHS, but still have to pay charges (even though much reduced from private prices) and lo and behold the number of Brits who don't go regularly to a dentist is very high. I recently had some serious pain in my tooth and went for a check up: I was told I needed two fillings and a root canal. For the treatment and the sedation ( I am dental phobic) I will have to pay £180. I am still in pain and haven't been for the treatment yet because I can't afford it. The idea that someone might have to make such a decision about something more serious appalls me. The sooner one seeks treatment the better usually, and many people who live in countries where seeing a doctor isn't free at the point of need will make the same calculation I have made over my teeth and just not go.....until they absolutely have to, at which point their overall health and even life may have been put at much greater risk by the delay.

And your taxes are out of this world. Your death tax on estates is even worse. VAT is bad enough. We don't want more taxes. I don't want 50% of my pay going to fund health care.